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on Gopher (inofficial)
URI Visit Hacker News on the Web
COMMENT PAGE FOR:
URI The Framework Laptop
t0r0nat0r wrote 1 day ago:
This wonât fly...
axiolite wrote 1 day ago:
This is the wrong way to go.
Put together a battery, monitor, keyboard and pointer in a foldable
package, with an open space to drop-in and connect one of the many mini
PCs out there. The "laptop" part could last for decades, while the
customer just swaps-out the mini PC inside it every couple years to
upgrade.
superinterwebs wrote 2 days ago:
how about a microphone hardware switch?
andix wrote 2 days ago:
I don't see the point.
I get myself a new ThinkPad every 3-6 years. The devices are completely
repairable, every part can be exchanged. After the warranty period
though, a lot of repairs don't make sense any more.
After my usage period of a few years, nearly every part of the device
is worn out. The case is scratched and sometimes broken. The screen
too. The battery (probably the 2nd or 3rd) reached the end of its life.
The logic board including CPU and GPU is not strong enough any more for
the newest software. I don't want to continue using the SSD, because
the wear level went up, and I don't want to lose my data.
Normally I give away the device as a present, for some one who has less
demands in a laptop than I do. I probably could also sell it to a
refurbishment company.
So what would be the benefit with that laptop?
Epskampie wrote 2 days ago:
Please consider making the left and right arrow keys half-height, so
you can easily feel them out by hand. Macbook recently made this change
with good reason. Iâve got the older model, and itâs hell if
youâre used to a standard keyboard.
aagha wrote 2 days ago:
Really interesting, but I wish the decision had been to go down the
path of using AMD Ryzen rather than Intel: Cheaper, faster, and better
battery life.
oblio wrote 2 days ago:
To people hoping this will succeed (which I would very much like it to,
personally), think about this:
1. Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets? Do you know
regular, passive folks (so not the standard HN overachiever) doing
this? I don't know anyone doing this.
2. Do you repair your home appliances? Same thing, I don't really know
anyone doing this.
Of course, this being the internet, someone will reply "yes, I do
this", but my reply to that: "of course someone does it, but it's not a
real market, there isn't any money in this".
Poor people tend to repair their stuff, well off or rich people don't
do it because it's a negative status symbol. And poor people can't
afford expensive stuff, which this will probably be. Poor people can't
afford high up-front costs, even though TCO might be awesome.
e12e wrote 2 days ago:
> Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets?
Socks, generally no - by the time they've got holes, they're usually
overall worn down anyway.
I don't generally patch t-shirts or boxers (same reason), but I do
sew worn seams, and patch pants, sweaters and jackets. I don't
personally replaces zippers, but there's a local shop that does.
For eg gortex outwear, it's possible to fix minor holes (like from
sparks from a bonfire) with repair tape.
vb6sp6 wrote 2 days ago:
Anecdotal but whatever: I know a lot of people who try and fix their
own things. The most prolific fixer I know is quite well off
salusinarduis wrote 2 days ago:
I don't patch my clothing but I absolutely do repair appliances using
guides I find on Youtube and blogs. I've also always been a custom
parts pc guy, so it appeals to me, and I think there are tons of
people like me based on Reddit's communities for this stuff.
bfrog wrote 2 days ago:
Why not have a pointer nib, its the reason I've continued to use ibm
and now lenovo laptops. Trackpads are RSI inducing.
werber wrote 3 days ago:
I looked at this yesterday and loved the slide out adapters, then last
night I had a dream my macbook had them. Haven't loved a concept so
much it crept into my dreams via HN ever.
kunalpowar1203 wrote 3 days ago:
My naive question is "how do you guys manage profitability? and hence
survive as a company". That's the one point that I can't explain to
someone when I rant about companies making devices that cannot be
repaired and would last an average 3 years.
gohbgl wrote 3 days ago:
Well, in the tech space this is very easy to explain: They survive by
selling new devices. People will eventually buy new laptops to get
access to faster hardware.
edpichler wrote 3 days ago:
My dream is to have this one but running Mac OS.
Or a Macbook having this upgradeable features, where I know it will not
happen soon as it's against the planned obsolesce of the industry.
foft wrote 3 days ago:
I'd be keen to make an FPGA based custom cpu board to go in, presuming
they release port pinouts, timings and signalling details. This could
be used for hardware laptop versions of legacy computers - Amiga, ST,
Atari 800XL etc. Particularly if there is a slot for custom external
ports to be exposed.
parski wrote 3 days ago:
I love that it's repairable and upgradeable but that Intel chip has to
go.
wiz21c wrote 3 days ago:
FTA :
> Most consumer electronics devices are disposable one-offs by design.
The single best way to reduce the environmental impact of electronics
is to make them last longer.
Yes. And I really don't see why a framework PC can help with that. If
you want to make them last longer, then make hard drive that last
longer, motherboards that last longer, etc. Also, make sure the user
needs stay the same for longer (for example, as a Linux user, my needs
have been fullfilled by my PC for about 12 years now, I just added a
bit more RAM (4 gigs) and a new low cost gfx card; notice that
upgrading my Debian never resulted in more hardware needs)
> In addition to enabling longevity, weâre focused on improving
sustainability across the life of our products.
Just don't produce them. It'd be more helpful if those brains would
help big companies to do things better. No, instead, they think they're
smarter, and that being smarter, somehow, translate into money making.
> The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled (PCR)
aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic.
Count how many grams that is. Compare that to a car, which you change
about as often as a mobile phone or laptop.
> Our packaging is fully recyclable with no single-use plastics,
And who's going to take care of those plastic. Me ? Just don't use
plastic (and if you're so smart, then figure out a way to not need
plastic in packaging)
> and all of our product shipments are carbon offset.
Yeah, and what about the other part of the iceberg, ie, the carbon
produced while producing your laptops ?
I'm all for ecology, reuse, etc. But at some point, if you're smart,
you must realize that all of that is pixie powder.
As I said, I'd much prefer :
- if hardware producer would guarantee a 20 years+ longevity
- would reduce the number of form factors (so we can have less
production lines)
- would optimize for energy consumption (hey, my washing machine comes
with a nice card explaining how much energy/water it consumes)
- would create less market segments. We don't need a new CPU model
every year. Look, my kid changes its game console (not exactly
ecological either) every 5 years, so it's perfectly doable.
- OS producer would make sure OS upgrade doesn't require hardware
upgrade
All of that is way more political than technological.
mjgs wrote 3 days ago:
Iâm definitely down with laptops that have parts that are fully
replaceable. Itâs not something you really think about until itâs
too late, and as such can really land you in some serious issues
depending on where you are located in the world.
On a related note, why is it that Linux desktop hardware compatibility
is such a hit or miss affair?
I would have thought that given the ethos of the platform and the sheer
number of people using Linux worldwide this could be a solvable
problem.
I read about VLCs 20 birthday recently and one of the things that made
it such an amazing piece of software was that it came bundled with
every single codec imaginable. It was revolutionary at the time that it
just played literally every single video file you had in your computer.
My point is, that it is possible.
If there was a website a bit like caniuse.com, that listed every Linux
distro and test results with various hardware. People could register to
be âdraftedâ to test new releases, and there could also be
associated discussion forums for workarounds etc.
Even if it was just for laptop hardware, it would be amazing. Not
knowing if an expensive purchased laptop will work or not is such a big
barrier to entry.
ramino wrote 3 days ago:
Finally! I hope this company will be insanely successful. We need more
companies like this focusing on repairability.
john4532452 wrote 3 days ago:
This is really cool. What does 1.5mm keyboard mean ? Does it mean 15mm,
because 1.5 mm is too small to feel at the fingers.
coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
I think the best comment is this in Ars:
"The reason stuff like this doesn't succeed isn't because you can't do
it, it's because few people are willing to pay for the increased costs
or other tradeoffs to get something
repairable/configurable/upgradeable."
Which is a same, but it is what it is...
rasengan0 wrote 3 days ago:
It's 2021 and I can't believe we have to recycle perfectly good laptops
because of swollen batteries or other replaceable components not easily
serviceable. That was not the case for my 1983 Apple //e. And now
Chromebooks EOL, sealed Macbooks, the next best Surface? Computers have
become appliances for the landfill after data extraction from the
platforms. I hope frame.work marketplace thrives, consumers need
freedom from the tyranny of convenience. 50 million metric tonnes of
e-waste and going [1] We need a different mindset.
URI [1]: https://www.ft.com/content/26e1aa74-2261-11ea-92da-f0c92e957a9...
sriku wrote 3 days ago:
The spec says "Intel Xe Graphics". Any more details on this GPU? Is it
this one - [1] ?
URI [1]: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/211013/in...
jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
They say Intel 11th Gen CPUs, so the particular one will likely be
the one that ships with your pick of Tiger Lake SKU. The Xe MAX card
is useful for particular niche cases, such as encoding videos with
good power efficiency, but because it's no more powerful than the
top-range built-in Tiger Lake iGPU, there would be little point in
putting it in most laptops.
cafxx wrote 3 days ago:
Since we have the designers lurking in the thread, I may venture to ask
something I have been wondering for a while: would it be possible to
use the lid (back of the screen) as an additional radiating surface to
improve thermal dissipation of the internal components (CPU, GPU, ...)?
Or is it an intractable mechanical problem?
perlpimp wrote 3 days ago:
man if you'd only squeeze mech keyboard in this shell or a little
thicker.
dudeinjapan wrote 3 days ago:
I love the concept. Finally someone gets what matters in a laptop.
Other companies have made similar products (I have an ultralight
Samsung that I love) but they always seem to lose interest and the next
year's model comes out bloated and heavier.
msie wrote 3 days ago:
Itâs too bad it doesnât have buttons for mouse clicks. I canât do
precise mousing when the touch pad is also the mouse button. Too bad so
many laptops do this.
VectorLock wrote 3 days ago:
I'll be interested when I can click on "Buy" and it has a price.
Otherwise, I would be very interested.
freakynit wrote 3 days ago:
Just add a GPU please. A whole community of people buy windows laptops
just so that they can game on it. For work, Mac's are still best
choice.
But hats off to the initiative. Wee needed this.
jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
A laptop in this form factor won't be great for gaming even if you
put a dedicated GPU inside, there's not enough room for cooling and
especially not when replaceable components take up more space. For
half-decent laptop gaming, you either want a giant beast or an eGPU
(generally via Thunderbolt).
eyelidlessness wrote 3 days ago:
@dang
> Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're working on
it)
I have a very meta interest in the tech/design/implementation behind
HN. I've built a dark mode theme for the site because you asked the
community to fill that gap. I'm wondering if whatever work goes into
this perf improvement might be something y'all could talk about when
it's ready? I'd love to know more about what's behind the incredibly
1999 frontend, and how it keeps up with the huge volume it gets.
apricot wrote 3 days ago:
Not a terribly important question in the grand scheme of things, but
what's the rationale behind making the \ key and the Enter key touch
each other? I've seen it on other keyboards as well and cannot imagine
what's gained by doing it.
nfw2 wrote 3 days ago:
The purpose of this feature is to ward off those of us with design
OCD. We are the most annoying users to support
ali-tny wrote 3 days ago:
Perhaps it's to make things (slightly) easier for people used to ISO
layout keyboards? You could set both touching keys to be enter, and
not have to relearn muscle memory - kind of, because you'd still have
a weirdly long lower-enter compared to what you were used to.
jrmski wrote 3 days ago:
The year of the linux laptop?
aasasd wrote 3 days ago:
> Our Expansion Card system makes adapters a thing of the past, letting
you choose exactly the ports you want and which side of the notebook
you want them on
PC Card, is that you? Long time no see.
Ayesh wrote 3 days ago:
I upgraded my five year used laptop just last month, and this would
have been an ideal one.
However, lack of an AMD CPU is a kind of deal breaker for me, even if
it means I wouldn't get USB 4.
rStar wrote 3 days ago:
sign. me. up. especially if they go core boot or similar.
agnosticmantis wrote 3 days ago:
âAt Framework, we believe the time has come for consumer electronics
products that are designed to last.â
Is this another way of saying Mooreâs law is dead?
sangnoir wrote 3 days ago:
I think it's another way of saying "We're bringing back non-soldered
RAM/storage and standard slots and not chasing after thinness for
thinness sake".
bfrog wrote 3 days ago:
No pointer nib, no buy.
ibraheemdev wrote 3 days ago:
Just curious, why Intel over AMD? AMD has been dominating the CPU
market lately in price for performance.
Stevvo wrote 3 days ago:
AMD's competitive mobile chips are bit different; higher TDP, higher
core counts. Not ideal for a thin and light machine.
ben-schaaf wrote 3 days ago:
This is simply false. AMD has recently been ahead in performance/W
leading to lower TDP while also being faster than Intel. Mobile AMD
chips can be configured down to 10W even with 8c/16t.
ibraheemdev wrote 3 days ago:
I thought the 4000U series was supposed to be more efficient than
Intel but still provide higher core counts?
0xbadcafebee wrote 3 days ago:
I use a 5 year old IdeaPad 510S with a Core i7 and SSD, and I have no
reason to replace it yet. I did upgrade the single 8GB stick to 16GB
just for the heck of it. But I can't imagine needing a new one for
another few years at least, it feels plenty fast (and I'm the nutter
with 80+ tabs open)
pbronez wrote 3 days ago:
I would love to see an e-ink display upgrade for this!
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
We'd love to see that too! The Dasung 13.3" is actually sized just
about right to be able to mod into our lid assembly. It's probably
not a thing that we'll do ourselves, but it would be great to see
someone try it.
King-Aaron wrote 3 days ago:
Looks nice from the images, but personally I'd like to see those port
adaptors house a combination of multiple sockets, not just one per
module. That's going to be a PITA to keep swapping them out.
Also the thermal management doesn't look amazing, but I guess they
aren't looking to have big GPUs in them etc.
I really like the idea though, hopefully these guys do well from it!
soheil wrote 3 days ago:
If I have to install Ubuntu Desktop or god forbid Windows to use your
laptop you already lost me. Why doesnât someone try to tackle the
operating system problem first? I literally donât care about the
physical laptop as much as the software running on it. Also everyone
always says hardware is hard so why not focus on a software solution
for existing laptops? If there was an operating system half as good as
Appleâs Iâd never buy a MacBook again.
knz_ wrote 3 days ago:
As cool as this is, it's a DOA product with no real market outside
super savvy consumers. Uninformed consumers already buy the cheapest
laptops they can find on Amazon or in the store.
If repairability is super important to someone, what incentive is there
to buy this over a used thinkpad? You can get skylake thinkpads for
less than $200 on ebay - replacement batteries and displays cost less
than $100.
eightails wrote 3 days ago:
I really hope you're wrong and this device achieves success, but you
may well be right honestly.
I suspect they'll have to charge premium prices, but that might be
justifiable even considering the availability of cheap Thinkpads.
As good as $200 Thinkpads are, they are old devices, with dim, low
res screens, old processors, poor battery life, relatively thick and
heavy chassis, old ports, old wifi/bluetooth etc. Again, perfectly
functional for many people, but I think there are legitimate reasons
to want a newer device.
Maybe there's enough of a niche market there, who knows.
dang wrote 3 days ago:
Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're working on
it), so to see the rest of the comments you need to click More at the
bottom of the page, or like this: [1] [2] Apologies for the annoying
repetition. It will eventually go away.
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=2
URI [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=3
mpd wrote 3 days ago:
13 inches simply isn't enough for what I need. I'd consider this today
if I could get a 15 inch screen.
spion wrote 3 days ago:
2256x1504 resolution
Finally, someone that knows about the sweet spot between fuzzy looking
FHD and inevitably slow 4K. I'd buy this laptop just for that bit of
(nowadays rare) common-sense thinking.
Webcam is just icing on the cake.
Hope the keyboard is more similar to a Thinkpad rather than a Macbook.
Even if not, I'm sure that will become an option soon if the project is
a success
jascii wrote 3 days ago:
They claim "100% Yours", does that mean they managed to do away with
the Intel Management Engine? I somehow doubt it...
For the rest I see a lot of proprietary modules. I somehow can't help
but be a bit sceptical. It smells like proprietary lock-in sold as
"freedom". I think I'll keep waiting till Pine64 comes out with a RiscV
based PineBook Pro.
alfor wrote 3 days ago:
Itâs funny that the design is basically a macbook clone.
Apple is way ahead with the M1, they will get rid of cooling, get
massively better battery life and better performance.
But I am angry too at Apple for their high price and upgrade looked
systems.
andrewrothman wrote 3 days ago:
Looks great. I'd love something like this. I assume it charges over
USB-C? Any chance we can get a video of the laptop in-use, and maybe a
few shots of it next to other popular laptops?
Great design/hardware. Specifically the high res 3:2 display, camera
privacy guard, and the weight. And the repairability / upgradability is
awesome.
Causality1 wrote 3 days ago:
How about an option for actual damn buttons on my touchpad so I can
tell where right click is?
gohbgl wrote 3 days ago:
I like the idea, but I will 100% not buy it for these reasons (most
important first):
1. Bad keyboard layout: Small arrow keys, lack of dedicated home/end
and page up/down.
2. Screen is too small. I need at least 15.6 inch.
3. Replaceable ports are a gimmick. They waste space. Just put the
ports there directly.
4. Intel CPU.
ripvanwinkle wrote 3 days ago:
Love what you are building and rooting for this. I've been waiting for
something like this for atleast 10 years
lifeisstillgood wrote 3 days ago:
This is a little off-topic, but it makes me proud that HN can have two
major IPOs (one coinbase!) on the front page, but the top story is a
damn-cool laptop we all want to tinker with.
We have not been subsumed by The Man yet :-)
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
We were pleasantly surprised too! It's great to see the interest,
and we can't want to get it out there.
The_rationalist wrote 3 days ago:
Note that while such projects are very promising, you can already get
many customizations at buying time for regular laptops if you buy them
on platforms such as [1] It allowed to change the RAM & Disk but more
customization are possible
URI [1]: https://www.hidevolution.com
rock_artist wrote 3 days ago:
Itâs really refreshing initiative in the laptop market.
But how are those planned to be distributed outside the us?
Will they use local distributors like other companies?
Are they expect to have international warranty?
jhatemyjob wrote 3 days ago:
How does this have 1400 upvotes. It's literally just a landing page for
an unshipped laptop
xtat wrote 3 days ago:
It's cool but the MNT reform goes out of its way to be way more open.
URI [1]: https://twitter.com/mntmn/status/1365060706723393536
jeromenerf wrote 3 days ago:
Nice project, even though I only buy second hand thinkpad.
I would be more interested in a more innovative approach regarding the
keyboard than the ports. This was solved with usb3 for me.
throwawayX1 wrote 3 days ago:
The only thing I don't love about this is that it's Intel and not Ryzen
5000.
But if the promises hold true, this will definitely be my next laptop.
maxharris wrote 3 days ago:
One of the few things I like about my 13" MacBook Pro is that it isn't
wedge-shaped, and the exterior design minimizes the number of lines and
shapes a user sees from the outside. The chassis used in the Framework
laptop is busy in comparison. I hope they decide to simplify the
external design - this one is too busy, so I won't buy it.
I don't like the way Apple is so user- and programmer-hostile, so the
Framework laptop does have that going for it. I'm interested in this
concept!
wolfsayswof wrote 3 days ago:
I'm just gonna say it. The design looks like a hard copy of the Macbook
Air.
whywhywhywhy wrote 3 days ago:
Which honestly seems to undersell the machine, you make something so
unique then just made it look like the problem its trying to solve.
Hope the design team have a little more bravery in future
technojunkie wrote 3 days ago:
If this gets industry-leading battery power, it sounds like an
excellent option. Would also be fascinating to see a wrap-around screen
someday :)
Only one major request: reconsider the arrow keys to match the current
generation MacBook Pro. That space above the left and right arrow keys
is priceless!
IshKebab wrote 3 days ago:
> Weâre here to prove that designing products to last doesnât
require sacrificing performance, quality, or style.
Mmm conspicuous omission of price. Still, the end of Moore's law does
make this sort of product make more sense.
throwaway69123 wrote 3 days ago:
These things never work because consumers care more about brands than
rights
SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
Also these things tend to work worse than the branded stuff, fail
faster, and then the project vanishes after a few years so you never
get to upgrade it anyway.
whywhywhywhy wrote 3 days ago:
The job of their marketing team is to convince them to care
zafiro17 wrote 3 days ago:
Hey wow, I love this idea, this design philosophy, and this commitment
to reuse. It occurs to me it may also solve another complaint I've
always had with laptops, that you have to find the machine whose
screen, trackpad, keyboard, weight, etc. ALL match your wishlist (with
a desktop you buy the display you want, the external keyboard you want,
the external mouse/trackball you want). This device lends itself to
customization, almost like an ecosystem: hopefully some day they will
offer a Dvorak, Workman, and Colemak keyboard variant, or similar
customizations. Better yet, open it up to niche customized hardware
manufacturers and make it a market. Suddenly it becomes the substrate
for an ecosystem of customized components. I love this idea. (For
reference, my current approach to hardware reuse is to sytematically
only buy used laptops. I save a ton of money too).
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
We do plan to offer Dvorak, Workman, and Colemak keyboards. In a
normal laptop, it would never really be feasible to do this because
you'd be sitting on a lot of really niche, expensive inventory. In
our case, the input assembly is one of the configurable items in the
Framework Laptop DIY Edition, so we only have to stock the variants
of that module, rather than full laptops.
This lets us cover languages and layouts that have historically been
missing from notebooks.
albertzeyer wrote 3 days ago:
I would love a 15" (or larger) version of such a laptop. I hope this
comes soon.
Also some other options for CPU and GPU would be nice. (AMD CPU. Maybe
Nvidia GPU for CUDA. Or maybe even some ARM CPU?)
How long does the battery last in this?
Will this be available in Europe? (Or rather when?)
Hasz wrote 3 days ago:
Look at the older Lenovo workstation laptops for an example of
something similar.
I have a P50 -- a 3840x2160 15" screen, 32GB of RAM, Xeon E3-1505M v5 @
2.8GHz, and a removable battery. It also comes with space (easily
accessible!) for extra drives, ram slots, etc. Even with the overkill
Xeon CPU, I still get ~5hours of battery life on windows under moderate
load.
Most importantly, the service manual is a thing of beauty, and has
detailed instructions for almost any replacement. This is a laptop
designed to be used, upgraded, and used again.
kvark wrote 3 days ago:
Looks like a great machine! I wish it had Ryzen 5000 option instead of
Intel.
Dig1t wrote 3 days ago:
Remember that one time when someone tried to do this with mobile phones
and then Google bought it and killed it? [1] I really hope this is
actually successful.
I'd love a version with a larger screen as well.
URI [1]: https://www.onearmy.earth//project/phonebloks
Animats wrote 3 days ago:
Shipping Summer 2021
Does it actually exist?
grawp wrote 3 days ago:
Wake me up when/if they do AMD version with verified ECC support.
tommica wrote 3 days ago:
I really hope this is successful, and that I could afford one of those
some day, even as a pre-owned!
ksec wrote 3 days ago:
>Designed for the future of work with a 13.5â 3:2 screen
Yes 3:2! Really wish Apple took this direction. But instead it was the
PC industry moving towards it. For Desktop or Laptops that no longer
has Gaming or Media consumption as their priorities, 3:2 is just much
better for productivity.
bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
I must be the only person on HN who really likes 16:9. Actually I'd
go further and do 2:1 if I could.
The reason is that the vast majority of my work is done with two
windows open, side by side. A wider aspect ratio gives you a much
better picture of what's happening in both, especially if one of them
is a web browser (so many sites assume a pretty large screen width
these days). The fact that it works much better with media (e.g.
watching or editing film footage) is just a bonus.
giberson wrote 3 days ago:
I like the idea of a repairable/upgradable/modular laptop. However, to
really buy in to the idea I want more than a promise of future
upgradability. I'd really like to see a company roadmap that shows
expected future dates of upgrade releases.
Show me if you're expecting to put out new CPU upgrade parts every 1,
2, 3 or 5 years.
Show me what type/generation of graphic card is available and your
expectation of how far behind graphic card modules will lag behind
current gen cards, 1,3,5,10 years?
Show me how long I'll expect to have to wait to double my storage, or
ram.
And most of all, what are the target price points of current and future
upgrades.
metalliqaz wrote 3 days ago:
roadmaps are meaningless. talk is cheap. Just ask anyone who has
ever bought into a "live service" video game, or countless other
ambitious but later abandoned products.
Here's what I can say for sure. The options for future upgrades will
be correlated with the sales figures of the base laptop.
trilinearnz wrote 3 days ago:
Cool idea. Reminds me a lot of the earlier Thinkpads which had
legendary swappability of components between models. For example, it
was trivial for me to swap the superior keyboard on my T60 for the one
on my T500.
Not seeing anything about the ability to swap out the display,
however... You seem to lose a bit of flexibility when embracing the
unibody chassis.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
The display is held in with fasteners behind the magnetic attach
bezel.
cdnsteve wrote 3 days ago:
Exciting news on my bday, I signed up to be notified when this
launches. I view this as progress in the right to repair vs youknowwho
and I'd like to give this product a real shot. Bring on change and give
the consumer options to customize, nice work.
conductr wrote 3 days ago:
My current work laptop has ports that get blocked when docked. Donât
do that
jrmann100 wrote 3 days ago:
This looks like a fantastic, albeit potentially costly, product, and
I'm excited to see where it goes. For those of us who are happy with
our current laptops but are still excited by the customizability of the
Expansion Card system, are you considering creating USB-C hubs designed
to work with the modules? The Cards obviously already adapt to USB-C
but it'd be nice to have a dedicated hub to stack them and save space.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
A controller just became available that makes this more doable. It
is something we're exploring to broaden the usability of the
Expansion Cards.
staunch wrote 3 days ago:
This is a great example of a problem where Apple has placed their own
financial interests above their users.
They could make their computers and phones highly upgradeable and
repairable, they're brilliant at these kinds of engineering challenges,
but they choose not to because they would (presumably) not make as much
money as they currently do.
But that leaves an opportunity for others to come along, like this
company, and serve the market better than Apple.
I hope this company succeeds at least enough to force Apple's hand, in
the way Tesla forced automakers to move to EVs.
twobitshifter wrote 3 days ago:
I love the idea. My suggestion: To make the laptop âyouâ as the
site says, you need to make the laptop outwardly expressive. Nothing is
less unique than a apple logo on the lid. Zune did an amazing job some
time ago with custom engraving artist designs and patterns on the back
of their MP3 players. Maybe Framework could do something similar?
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
The bezel around the display is magnetic-attach and we'll be offering
a range of colors for it.
auggierose wrote 3 days ago:
No powerful GPU seems to be planned, though.
sevsco wrote 3 days ago:
They should send a model to Louis Rossman. Heâs a MacBook repair guy
whoâs big on Right to Repair, and has a sizable audience on YouTube.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote 3 days ago:
How many dongles can one install simultaneously? I see only 2 in the
video. Are there more on the other side?
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
Four Expansion Cards, two on each side.
jakry wrote 3 days ago:
Is the Laptop also available with a AMD ryzen CPU?
enchiridion wrote 3 days ago:
Yep, this is my question too. If not is the CPU swapable?
Especially given that this product appeals to the PC builder types,
it really should support AMD.
tkinom wrote 3 days ago:
Intel to AMD CPU swap is impossible.
They definitively should design it to support motherboard swapping.
Or maybe even swap to ARM base motherboard when/if 8,16,32 cores
ARM base CPU with 3-15watts is available and ready.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
We've designed the Framework Laptop for end-user motherboard
swaps from CPU platform to CPU platform. We minimized the cost
of that move by keeping the memory, storage, and WiFi socketed.
gravyboat wrote 3 days ago:
Seems neat but using Intel chips over AMD is an immediate deal breaker
for me.
max_ wrote 3 days ago:
How much would this thing cost? Can it run an RTX GPU?
jhu247 wrote 3 days ago:
Love seeing a startup focused on hardware. Skeptical about the success
but bravo to their efforts.
jokoon wrote 3 days ago:
I hope it tries to follow a minimum of high standard for dust, humidity
and heat, a little like thinkpads do.
There are military standards for this, and I think it helps a lot to
have a laptop that is durable.
awill wrote 3 days ago:
This all sounds great, but I suspect this will be VERY expensive.
unicornporn wrote 3 days ago:
Will it be available in the EU or US only? Buying from the US not an
alternative considering toll fees, VAT etc.
essence_sentry wrote 3 days ago:
I love it guys, please take my money!
ehnto wrote 3 days ago:
A big part of reparability is how readily available parts are. Using
commodity parts available to anyone really helps with this, and so
hopefully for parts like the battery module and the screen, they are
off the shelf items. It sounds like the team at Framework have that in
mind, so I am hopeful.
Also, this is a very small niche, but it would be rad if down the line
they came out with a ruggedized chassis upgrade. A repairable laptop
that can be used in the field? That would be a dream.
alkonaut wrote 3 days ago:
Iâd buy a well built machine even if it was 3x as thick and 3x as
heavy as other laptops, with 1/3 the battery life. I just need a
movable machine, not an actual âlaptopâ. Many of us from home with
our machines plugged to the wall 98% of the time, yet the thermal and
power design is for a thin battery powered device. I want a 150W laptop
with a 120mm fan.
dheera wrote 3 days ago:
> 2256x1504 resolution
This seems like a dealbreaker for me. No 2160p option?
ezzato wrote 3 days ago:
Are the privacy switches hardware or software based?
umutseven92 wrote 3 days ago:
If this works nicely with Linux I'll buy it day one.
gwbas1c wrote 3 days ago:
I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the hardware.
If/when I return to Windows, a Framework laptop is definitely
appealing. I'd rather change the ports than deal with a handful of
dongles and adaptors.
One thing to consider:
I really want to try a laptop that comes with a good, well-supported
Linux installation. (I haven't tried desktop Linux since the early
2000s.) I'm less concerned about "distro of my choice," because I
really just want something that works well out of the box and is easy
to learn.
smoldesu wrote 3 days ago:
Side note, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised with how far Linux
has come. I recently returned to it for the first time in a decade,
and it's pretty remarkable how mature the operating system is. Almost
all of my "essential" apps have native versions (eg. Matrix, Spotify,
Discord, Steam) and the ones that don't can be pretty easily emulated
through Wine. It only took 2 weeks of playing around with KDE on my
Macbook before I put it on my desktop as well. 2 months later, I'm
still loving the decision.
gwbas1c wrote 3 days ago:
Which distro?
neop1x wrote 3 days ago:
I have been happily using KDE on Arch Linux for many years as
well.
Just two times I saw what seemed to be an xorg glitch which
required powering off and on the display output via xrandr over
SSH.
And MTP (android file transfer) implementation under KDE is not
ideal, it sometimes freezes or behaves weirdly. ADB CLI helps in
such cases, though.
Other than that it's a pretty solid and usable system.
If you decide to use Linux, make sure your HW is well supported.
For example AMD seems to be better choice over nVidia or even
Intel.
xur17 wrote 3 days ago:
I've been using Ubuntu for years now, and honestly it's pretty
set and forget at this point. Main caveat is that you should do a
little bit of research beforehand to ensure it will work well. It
still has some quirks at time, but honestly my Macbook I used at
my last job had just as many quirks.
jerrygoyal wrote 3 days ago:
Interesting. What are some things you wish could still be
better in Ubuntu?
deadmutex wrote 3 days ago:
> I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the
hardware.
Do you mean software? Or are you referring to the iMac? because on
the laptop side, the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of
simplicity. Build quality is a different story, etc.
gwbas1c wrote 3 days ago:
> the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of simplicity
To the Framework? Oh heck yes!
I switched to Mac when the rumors were that Windows Vista was going
to be a flop. Today, I like MacOS better than Windows 10, but
Windows 10 is very nice.
remarkEon wrote 3 days ago:
Who actually makes the boards for this? I want to believe here, but I
need to know a little more about the supply chain before Iâll pick
one up.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
One of the big Taipei-based notebook manufacturers who builds
machines for other popular brands. We'll be giving deeper
transparency into our supply chain once we get full sign-off from the
folks we work with there.
baybal2 wrote 3 days ago:
But in principle, who is doing the manufacturing, and getting a
production ready design?
Hearing "Taipei-based notebook manufacturer" I think already tells
how it is, but I myself is totally OK with OEM laptops, especially
if you put running Linux a priority.
I had my own plans for making a designed from scratch x86 laptop
with AMD Ryzen chipset a year ago. Covid of course made a change to
my plans.
99_00 wrote 3 days ago:
Worst case it fails as a product but succeeds in increasing knowledge
to help move us away from throwaway electronics culture.
mirchiseth wrote 3 days ago:
Yes, this is so needed in the era of SoC notebooks. As much as Apple M1
is a leap forward we still need systems similar to frame.work notebook.
A relatable story - I have an Acer notebook from 2013. I bought it from
Microsoft store in Valley Fair mall in San Jose, CA. Over the years I
have upgraded its hard disk to ssd, RAM and more recently wifi card to
wifi 6 (learnt not to buy before opening the notebook. I bought an m2
card while in 2013 half mini pci cards were all the rage)
Klonoar wrote 3 days ago:
Just two months ago I posted this comment here on HN, bemoaning the
state of laptops: [1] You all have made me very, very happy this
morning. This is an amazing start!
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25565148
antoineMoPa wrote 3 days ago:
Can we replace the Windows key by a Tux key?
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
This looks absolutely fantastic!
Any plans for a larger version, 14/15", or maybe even 16"?
zepearl wrote 3 days ago:
I'll add that I'm looking since forever for a 16+/17'' *thin" laptop
(currently using a Lenovo P71, which is a brick) - for some reason
nowadays there are hundreds of 13/14/15'' laptops which are thin, but
17'' are always huge - the only thin one that exists, as far as I
know, is the LG Gram 17, which is not available with my country's
keyboard layout (Swiss German).
Very important things for me would be the keyboard (normal layout,
include insert&delete&pgup/down&home&end-keys arrowkeys should have a
bump or similar to be located easily without watching, ideally as
well a number pad - the one of Lenovo is excellent) and the
resolution (FullHD not good enough on a 17'' - must be something
higher, max 4k, ideally IPS). About the rest: normal CPU (at least 4
threads), normal RAM (8GB probably not enough, better 16GB), normal
storage (1 normal SSD/NVME), maybe an ethernet connection, no
separate/discrete GPU, no cd/dvd, 2 USB connectors, no
superfast/superhot CPU in any case something which does not make the
fan spin up often, does not have to be superlight.
Cheers & good luck :)
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
Yeah, reason I asked is that I find 13" just a wee bit too small
for my liking, so it would be nice to have the option of something
just a little bigger.
Not 17" tho, even if it was light (it wouldn't be), it would be
massive.
Years back I got lumbered with a 17" CAD laptop from work, an HP I
think. It weighed 5-6kg, which was ridiculous - I ended up with
grazing all over my shoulder from my backpack! Luckily I managed to
swap it after a short time.
zepearl wrote 3 days ago:
Sorry, I did misuse a bit your post to just add as well my own
personal wish (as you anyway mentioned 16''...), but I'm sorry if
it gave you the impression of me wanting to interfere with your
own wishes, I absolutely didn't mean to :P
I agree about 13'' - a little bit too small. I currently own as
well a 14'' Lenovo X1 Carbon (4th gen) and I personally think
that that's perfect to carry around and to work with (I do use it
as well at home from time to time) (newer models have an even
thinner bezel, which makes them even better).
Yes, I absolutely agree that 17'' are quite a challenge to carry
around (I remember that many years ago when I was walking around
in Manchester with a thick Asus 17'' in my backpack, after a few
KMs I started realizing that that was a mistake, hehe) - my
usecase would be to use it mostly just at home or at least when
not changing too often the workplace.
ThinkBeat wrote 3 days ago:
I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair.
That goes for laptops and cellphone in particular.
Laptops used to allow easy replacement of battery, memory
and hardrives at the very least.
All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices "thinner" and the
design more attractive.
What bits me most is that a lot of younger friends I have,
have no such expectations.
Talk to them about a cellphone the answer is usually "well if you have
had it for 2 years it is probably time to buy a new one anyway"
Apples wireless earplugs are use and throw away.
With a life expectancy of a little over 2 years from
what I have read. No way to swap the batteries.
I do not know if that figure is accurate.
I live in Norway now and the government is doing all sorts of things
"for the environment" but have no interest in laws to force hardware
makers to sell equipment that can be easily repaired.
Not that it would matter much for Norway,
hardware makers would just pull out and the citizens would
be very angry at the government.
If the EU and the US could join forces on it there would
be repaid change.
I wonder if a latest generation Apple Air would be "easily" updated by
Apple to allow end user replacement.
I doubt it.
Let say such a law could be passed, and it mattered,
how much thicker and "less" attractive would things get.
I wonder what engineering could come up with.
Buying less, keeping things longer, and making things repairable should
be at the very top of the green agenda.
That would all results in less sales so no major government seemsm to
go that way.
fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
> I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair. That goes
for laptops and cellphone in particular.
IFixIt: Smartphone Doesnât Have to Be Glued Shut
URI [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCccpgposh4
poutrathor wrote 3 days ago:
high tech and environment considerations are conflicting way harder
than most nerds care to acknowledge and it's a real issue.
Silhouette wrote 3 days ago:
I'm not sure that's quite true. High tech marketing and profits may
be conflicting with environment considerations, but those are not
technical issues.
I would argue that after many years of customisable/repairable
desktop PCs and servers, it is clear that a more modular and
standardised design is a good thing in most ways. It tends to be
gamers who are the big upgrade-in-place fans and will look at
things like new CPUs or graphics cards or even motherboards, but
the modularity and standardisation are also good for simple things
like adding more storage or RAM, or replacing a failed PSU or drive
in an otherwise working system.
Even if you never use the flexibility yourself, an old PC can
potentially have the storage devices wiped or replaced for security
and then be passed on to another user. That might be a recycled
home PC going to a less developed country where someone otherwise
wouldn't be able to afford one. It might be a business clearing out
some old pro-level equipment that finds its way to a homelab
enthusiast. Either way, it's saving someone money and making more
use of the equipment for longer.
Modern laptops and phones have fought against this modularity and
flexibility, and that's not a good thing. There have been all kinds
of arguments made about achieving smaller and lighter devices that
people carry with them, or needing carefully engineered airflows to
keep high performance components cool in limited space, or
achieving better fluid resistance in case of accidents. Sometimes
those arguments do have some merit. But let's not kid ourselves
that all the sealed cases and ever-changing connectors (or lack of
connectors) and active steps to prevent systems working with
"unofficial" replacement parts aren't heavily in the interests of
the manufacturers and doing real harm to both customers and the
environment.
crooked-v wrote 3 days ago:
> All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices "thinner" and
the design more attractive.
I think the other major factor you're overlooking here is battery
life. High-end laptops these days are mostly battery (right up to the
100 Wh carry-on limit set by the FAA), with everything else designed
to fit into the space left over.
google234123 wrote 3 days ago:
I'm pretty sure Apple goes far more for the green agenda than the old
PC makers ever did - even taking into account the tiny savings you
get from the few people that upgraded or repaired their laptops in
the past.
neop1x wrote 3 days ago:
Nah, not anymore. SSD and RAM are soldered on the motherboard in
newer Macbooks [1]. And you can't even swap parts in iPhone 12
unless you reprogram their EEPROMs [2]. [1]
URI [1]: https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability
URI [2]: https://youtu.be/FY7DtKMBxBw
magikaram wrote 3 days ago:
Apple, when you had repairs for a device, rather than repairing it,
have actually ended up just throwing away the old device in favor
of swapping for a new one.
The past 6 years, they've made devices with no serviceable parts.
Your RAM, Storage, Keyboard, among other parts - are all soldered
to the board, riveted to the chassis, or glued shut. There is no
way to service those machines. Once your Flash chips die, you need
a whole new motherboard.
Sure, Apple recycles some of the parts of the device, but
environmentally, it's much better to support and repair a device
than it is to simply crush it and recycle it.
PufPufPuf wrote 3 days ago:
"Founding news" like these aren't really that exciting -- I'll be
excited once one of these "modular laptop / phone" companies manages to
last a few years and actually deliver on their promises.
VoidWhisperer wrote 3 days ago:
Any chance of thunderbolt 3 support? If the module port adapters are
just (port) to usb-c on the inside then this seems unlikely
dorfsmay wrote 4 days ago:
Add:
* An option for a good quality trackpoint and 3 buttons
* A possibility to order a fully assembled model without an OS
And you will quickly get a significant share of buyers from the
ThinkPad/Linux crowd.
alrs wrote 3 days ago:
The patents on Trackpoint must have expired by now. I need 3 physical
buttons, at minimum.
RMPR wrote 4 days ago:
> install your preferred Linux distribution.
Where do I sign? I can't help but wonder if those won't be more
expensive than a same specs Laptop. It would totally be understandable
but still...
sto_hristo wrote 4 days ago:
This is something i need. I just can't bring myself into purchasing a
laptop of any brand due to the black boxing and lack of upgrades.
Sticking to desktop until this stagnated market exist the cave.
In terms of design i value optimal decisions without going into
extremities such as thinnest possible at all costs. Logo on the
CRT-level of thickness bezels - nonsense.
Bookmarking this and waiting for the reviews.
teddyh wrote 4 days ago:
Yeah, letâs pretend that firmware isnât a thing and RYF
certification isnât important. /s
I only care about repairability when it affects a productâs
longevity. And if the drivers are proprietary and will be unsupported
after the warranty runs out, who cares if I can repair the hardware?
Itâs useless anyway if I canât get security updates to the thing.
aerovistae wrote 4 days ago:
Wait what operating system does it use?
ryanisnan wrote 4 days ago:
Wow, I would love to try this out. If the folks nail the hardware
aspect, this is my future.
wegs wrote 4 days ago:
If they release 3D CAD models, connector part numbers, and circuit
schematics, I'm buying one as my next laptop (when my current one fails
or goes obsolete; not as soon as it's released). I expect, if history
is any indicator, that they'll be out-of-business by then, though. I'd
want to know:
- How parts connect at a modular level (e.g. pinout and signalling
between LCD and motherboard, how the battery communicates, etc.). I
don't need to know e.g. motherboard schematic / layout
- Mechanicals (enough to 3d print things which fit)
- Ideally, as much firmware open as possible (esp. places like battery)
.. and so on. I'd pay a pretty good markup too.
I do agree with many posts. I'm not obsessive about laptop size and
weight. I want something sturdy and which works well for work. Battery
life, cooling, robustness, etc. all matter a lot more than weight.
ricardobayes wrote 4 days ago:
I was just this hopeful of Project Ara as this one. Really hope it can
make it. Hardware is hard and expansion cards make it a lot more
harder.
All the best to the team! Hats off.
TheSpiceIsLife wrote 4 days ago:
Interesting tie but:
Approximately 75% of the aluminium ever produced is still in use today
as it can be recycled endlessly without compromising any of its unique
properties or qualities.
Aluminiumâs life cycle provides significant benefits through
recycling, saving 95% of the energy it would take to make new aluminium
metal.
URI [1]: https://aluminium.org.au/sustainability/recycling-sustainabili...
nelsonenzo wrote 4 days ago:
pricing?
cat199 wrote 4 days ago:
looks awesome!
but will take the opportunity to be a know it all critic from the
peanut gallery to be annoyed by the schmarmy 'made with â¥' that i see
on everything these days.. is anyone else as annoyed by this as I am?
hmm...
wouldn't stop a potential purchase though. kudos!
liminalsunset wrote 4 days ago:
Looks wonderful! Just a quick question - is Thunderbolt or USB4 support
provided? I havent seen a mention of it on the site yet
Thanks!
alex_duf wrote 4 days ago:
it seems like nrp is answering questions around here, so here's another
one: will you be shipping to the UK and / or continental Europe?
Edit: found the answer: "We're shipping in the US and Canada this
summer and opening up additional countries in Europe and Asia before
the end of the year"
elric wrote 3 days ago:
I hope they'll be partnering with an EU distributor so it's easier to
reclaim VAT and to avoid having to pay import taxes.
Vinnl wrote 4 days ago:
> The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled (PCR)
aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic.
Like others have mentioned, I'm immediately thinking of Fairphone.
Definitely going to keep an eye on this and hope it's still on my mind
when I'm next in the market. Until then, I'm hoping they'll looking
into responsible sourcing of conflict minerals [1] [2], possibly in
partnership with Fairphone.
Edit: Hmm, can't find an RSS feed. Anyone know if there's one I can
follow somewhere? [1]
URI [1]: https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact/fair-materials-sourcing/
URI [2]: https://www.fairphone.com/en/2017/02/01/fairer-materials-a-lis...
ConfusedDog wrote 4 days ago:
Looks very interesting. Hopefully the pricing isn't ridiculous, and
come with empty SSD/RAM so users don't waste money on a basic build. I
have concerns about the port modules, as they are "mechanical moving
parts" that I don't have good experience with, but definitely a better
alternative than dongles in a lot of use cases. Signed up subscribed.
Looking forward to see it in action.
VlijmenFileer wrote 4 days ago:
Another laptop with arrow keys so small they're unusable. No usable
arrow keys means useless computer. What is wrong with laptop
manufacturers making these broken keys standard? There's hardly any
laptop left I could buy. A bit longer and I will have to drag an
external keyboard everywhere just to use my laptop. Or just forgo
laptop at all and start carrying some miny PC. It's insanity.
craftkiller wrote 2 days ago:
The librem 14 has what looks to be full-sized arrow keys:
URI [1]: https://puri.sm/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/11300004-edited.j...
FPGAhacker wrote 4 days ago:
I certainly can understand the frustration. To offer another point of
view, Iâm not sure Iâve touched my arrow keys once in the last
several years. I might have, but I donât remember it if I did.
VlijmenFileer wrote 4 days ago:
Yeah I understand not everybody has the same use pattern. But my
right hand about /lives/ on those keys half of the time. I got a
new work laptop a few months, some 13inch Fujitsu with same arrow
keys. It's also not a matter of time; I /still/ cannot properly
use them. And though I'm Caucasian, I do not even have big hands.
I honestly do not get it, there is easily enough place even on 13
incht laptops..
ben_ wrote 4 days ago:
Swappable keyboard
wgjordan wrote 4 days ago:
"designed to last" sounds great, but it can also be an empty promise
without any contractual guarantees. What's the warranty going to be on
this product?
adamc wrote 4 days ago:
I give them credit for an interesting attempt. I don't think I'm the
market, but.
freeone3000 wrote 4 days ago:
The port design is intriguing. My concern is your main competition, at
least from me, is against Lenovo. Their thinkpads don't offer the
modularity of IO ports, but instead simply offer "one of everything",
with user-replacable SSD, HDD, and RAM modules, which is enough for
most users. Swappable screens might be enough of a selling point, but,
I'm holding out for the actual final specs. It doesn't look like it can
fit a dedicated video card, so it's no competition for the Legion line,
but it might stand up to the Thinkpad line.
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
Do any of the modern Thinkpads offer user-replaceable parts? Any time
I see Thinkpads recommend on HN, it's for older, 2nd hand laptops.
Also, do any of such Thinkpads approach the lightness, thinness and
aesthetic of this laptop? Last time I looked at new Thinkpads, I seem
to recall they were pretty chunky, with only the Ideapads being thin,
light and nice to look at (it was a while ago, so I might have that
wrong tho)
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote 3 days ago:
Keyboard, SSD, one of two RAM sticks, WiFi card, and honestly
basically everything else except one RAM and the CPU/GPU look
replaceable on the T14 and P14s, with a publicly available manual
to guide you: [1] Comes with 2x USB-C, 2x USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet,
3.5mm headset jack, MicroSD.
That said, the Lenovo online shop is a customer service disaster.
Don't buy there. Misadvertised the smart card reader as a
SD/MMC/... card reader, defrauds customers by advertising a "best
price" policy that they then refuse to honor, 3 months to shipping
with repeated delays, they play stupid games with their pricing
(e.g. they jack up the price during week days by about 30% to milk
business customers), zero flexibility (e.g. if the shipment is
delayed because they're missing the removable RAM, they can't
change the order to ship you a unit without the RAM, your only
option would be to cancel and go to the end of the queue).
Also, poor hardware support for the GPU and possibly Bluetooth
under Ubuntu 20.04 LTS.
URI [1]: https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/t14_gen1_p1...
danhor wrote 3 days ago:
I'm really happy with both of these aspects on my Thinkpad T14. It
has user replacable ram (one slot), wifi, nvme drive as well as a
remaining free m2 slot, used for WAN on models with that. Lenovo
also tells you the partnumbers of replacements and I've been able
to find many of them for sale around the internet. It's approx. the
same weight and a tad thicker and I (personally) like the design.
It also has a 16 thread AMD cpu, which was pretty important to me.
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
Just had a look - I don't think I would describe it as a pretty
machine, more kind of "inoffensive" :) But it is 14", fairly
light, and replaceable parts is nice. Looks like it maxes out at
16GB, which is a deal-breaker for me tho.
danhor wrote 3 days ago:
> more kind of "inoffensive"
Fair, it's certainly not going for the eyecatcher look
The 16 gb option refers only to the soldered ram, you can
expand it with a 32gb stick to 48gb, I'm currently running it
with 24gb (8 GB stick). I'd have liked two ram slots, but for
my purposes even 16 GB is enough. (be aware, some online shops
might do the update for you and sell one with two 8 gb sticks,
but I'm not aware of Lenovo offering something like that)
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
Ah, then I misunderstood, thanks for setting me straight!
freeone3000 wrote 3 days ago:
The framework laptop is 16mm thick and 1.5kg. Those are the
dimensions of a ThinkPad T480 and its successors. (As in, the
framework laptop is not as thin or as light as you're assuming --
it's "standard" laptop size, not Ultrabook)
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
According to the specs, this laptop is actually only 1.3kg and
15.8mm thick.
As a couple of comparisons, the XPS 13 is 1.27kg and 14.8mm
thick; the MBP 13 is 1.4kg and 1.56mm thick; the ThinkPad X1 Nano
is 1.18kg and 13.87mm thick.
Note you have to compromise with the X1 Nano, as it maxes out at
only 16GB of RAM, and doesn't have great battery life.
So this is lighter than an MBP, and basically the same thickness,
all while being upgradable - you haven't convinced me that this
isn't witchcraft ;)
maxrev17 wrote 4 days ago:
I hate to be negative, but the market has decided it wants
un-repairable and un-upgradeable devices.
Udo wrote 3 days ago:
Judging by how much interest this has garnered on HN, there does seem
to be a market. I think people would at least like the option.
Every time I buy a laptop, it's a matter of tradeoffs. Some of these
tradeoffs are technical (like battery life vs power), but some are
purely based on what level of planned obsolescence the manufacturer
thinks they can get away with.
I'm not sure if there was ever a time when manufacturers competed
solely on putting features into their hardware, but the situation
right now is at least as much about how many antifeatures they can
get away with. The "free market" stops working when every
manufacturer does this and the barrier for new offerings is
impossibly high.
mraza007 wrote 4 days ago:
Reading about the project reminds me of Project Ara by Google as they
were going to introduce modular phone where person can take on and take
off the parts
dash2 wrote 4 days ago:
The problem is that non-repairability has an economic logic.
Essentially, you make a machine with a rather predictable lifetime. It
is the equivalent of renting the machine out. You're can then offer
support for that time period. If the time period is long enough,
customers will want to upgrade the whole caboodle at the end.
Everyone's happy. And with the focus on a single product, you have the
scale to pour resources into product design.
This approach will attract demanding customers - like the hn crowd -
who will put demands on support as they customize and tinker. Then, if
they extend it a lot, they'll likely buy from other suppliers who
free-ride off your development work. So you lose repeat custom.
Tl;dr: there's a reason why modern cars don't have easily accessible
engines, and do come with fixed-term support packages. Bundling works.
It may even be best for the consumer.
danbolt wrote 4 days ago:
Part of me feels like by the time we get an interchangeable
laptop/phone, it will be a bit like the PC where interchangeable parts
were used off-the-shelf instead of custom made.
pachico wrote 4 days ago:
This is just great and I wish then the best of luck. I will seriously
consider them for my next laptop!
dfgdghdf wrote 4 days ago:
Reading down the proposed spec sheet, I'm starting to see how crappy
the competition is!
* Apple MacBook - Nothing configurable. Expensive and not build to be
repaired.
* Microsoft Surface - Much the same, but with Windows
* Lenovo Thinkpad - A little more configurable than a MacBook, and much
better value, but still difficult to repair. Missing premium features
like an Aluminium case.
* Dell XPS 13 - Much like the Lenovo, but the Linux option is nice.
If they pull this off, developers are going to love it. I really wish
them the best.
My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3 Linux
distributions.
efficax wrote 2 days ago:
Is the thinkpad better value than the MacBook?
The i7 16GB ram / 512GB ssd Thinkpad X1 Carbon is $1900 and you don't
even get a nice display. The M1 16GB/512GB ssd Macbook Pro is only
$1700 and you get a best-in-class display along with that.
The XPS 13 and Surface are similarly priced. Macbooks are very price
competitive and have been for a long time.
fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
> I'm starting to see how crappy the competition is!
What about this laptop?
URI [1]: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14
arianvanp wrote 3 days ago:
> * Lenovo Thinkpad - A little more configurable than a MacBook, and
much better value, but still difficult to repair. Missing premium
features like an Aluminium case.
difficult to repair? They're super easy to repair! My T430 even came
with a bay to access the RAM and hard drive without opening the case
up.
Also replacing things like keyboard usually is only 2 screws even on
the newer models.
All screws are standard philips too.
Lenovo also published comprehensive repair guides for all their
thinkpad laptops.
dfgdghdf wrote 3 days ago:
I think that model is discontinued. You need to compare with the X1
Carbon models.
nickflood wrote 3 days ago:
Dell XPS 13/15/17 are super repairable, too. Unlike the macbooks,
the battery is replaceable. On 15"/17" models the RAM is
socketed. The SSD drives are all standard socketed. And nothing
is glued, everything is screwed in with a good replacement parts
market available after about a year of the laptop coming out.
I've just gotten the XPS 9310 and 9700 and they are very
repairable.
Only things missing are the RAM on a 13" version and wifi cards
being soldered in (but you can theoretically use a different
wi-fi card on a 17" as it has a spare M.2 slot).
Before that I've performed upgrades from XPS 15 9550 to 9560 and
9570 by swapping the motherboard and couple other parts. So it's
not like Apple _at all_. It's more like the opposite of Apple
codemac wrote 3 days ago:
> Missing premium features like an Aluminium case.
Magnesium is a different type of premium for some.
SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
Its extremely light. I initially thought it was plastic until I
tapped and scraped my fingernail along the vents.
w0mbat wrote 3 days ago:
Intel processors are done in the laptop market. I'll stick with fast,
silent, ARM based machines like the M1 MacBooks.
f1refly wrote 3 days ago:
My first thought on it was that I love it and I want one, my second
thought was that its really sad they don't have a thinkpad-like
rubberized alloy case but only a subpar mac-like shell available.
Tastes differ, I guess.
protomyth wrote 4 days ago:
My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3 Linux
distributions.
May sure it works flawlessly with one of the BSD distributions and
you know the Linux experience will be flawless.
desmap wrote 4 days ago:
Nirav, I don't want to be the guy but yeah. One the one side, I like
that somebody finally takes care of products we really
needânotebooks. That somebody enters the hardware game, one of the
hardest spaces to conquer. On the other side, I am a bit underwhelmed.
I mean this must the dream of every engineer, designer and 13-year old.
Designing your own notebook. And what's the results? It's good, I would
buy one, maybe. But is it a gadget I think of before I fall asleep?
This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?), huge clumsy
bays nobody asked for and a non-centered displays. Worst, a design that
doesn't dare, that is afraid to go beyond the Macbook comfort zone,
something that wants to be liked, something Chuwi and BMAX, two low-end
Chinese brands, would have designed better. Btw, celebrating this
reparability feature, maybe you should check out what
Schenker/XMG/Clevo or the Thinkpads do for years. Not that all of
aforementioned are dealbreakers but IDK, let's says they do not make a
good first impression.
Look at following non-iconic notebooks[1]âI don't compare yours with
iconic brands, this wouldn't be fairâbut look what other non-premium
brands are able to create. These are gadgets I dream of and you should
think of restarting the project, seriously, I mean are you happy with
this yourself or would Jobs be? [1] Brand new Chinese Yoga 14S [1]
Brand new Asus Flow X13 [2] Razer Book 13 [3] Asus G14 ACRONYM limited
editon, [4] ---
PS: If anyone disagrees, pls comment and let me know where I am wrong
thanks.
URI [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/kifq5i/lenovo_yog...
URI [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/eGPU/comments/l5fq7a/asus_rog_flow_x1...
URI [3]: https://www.razer.com/productivity-laptops/razer-book-13
URI [4]: https://rog.asus.com/microsite/ROG-ZEPHYRUS-G14-ACRNM/
RussianCow wrote 4 days ago:
> This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?), huge
clumsy bays and a non-centered displays. Worst a design that doesn't
dare, that is afraid to go beyond the Macbook comfort zone, something
that wants to be liked. Not that all of these are dealbreakers but
IDK, let's says they do not make a good first impression.
Personally, I don't think they want to change too many variables at
the same time. It makes sense to first create something that is
familiar to users while offering the benefits they advertise, instead
of alienating users right off the bat with a weird/different design
that may or may not be successful. It's just unnecessary risk at this
point.
subaquamille wrote 4 days ago:
Fairphone is doing interchangeability for... phones [1] Although the
feature/price is a bit below average brands, they are greatly priced if
you take into account the sustainability. I Hope more brands will go
this way so concurrence could help get better products and reduce
electronic trash.
URI [1]: https://www.fairphone.com/en/
bigpeopleareold wrote 1 day ago:
I got my FP3+ on Friday, so here's to hoping for another 5-8 years of
not buying another phone and repairing what I have :) (Switched after
8 years of using Nexus 5s and I did have to repair it, but someone
gave me a new-ish one during that time.)
diurnalist wrote 4 days ago:
I was excited to take the leap and try the FP2, and ended up really
disappointed by it. The quality of both hardware and software was
just pretty bad. The casing would warp and pop off over time; I had
to order 2 replacements in the 2 years I had it. Separately, at the
time (maybe still the case), they didn't ship parts at all to the
USA, so when I moved there, I was unable to get replacement parts. My
microphone module got so flaky that it would periodically lose a good
connection to the bus and the person on the other end wouldn't hear
anything I was saying, which took a while to figure out. The
connectivity was also awful, maybe also a USA thing. I couldn't get
reception at either my work place or several apartments I rented. It
was incredibly frustrating because I really wanted it to work. That
they phased out FP1 parts after 4 years confirmed to me that it just
wasn't worth it. I keep my phones for that long anyways, it may as
well at least be built well. Oh, there were also compatibility
problems with Android apps because FP OS development often lagged
pretty behind, but that's a different story.
dbeley wrote 4 days ago:
For a laptop mainly targeting power users, I think it lacks several
features for it to be a game changer:
- trackpoint
- real mouse buttons
- exotic keyboard layouts (i.e ortholinear)
unionpivo wrote 4 days ago:
it has user replaceable TrackPoint and keyboard. So those could come
later, if it succeeds.
Plus they say it will support 3rd party developing accessories, so
maybe ?
ctocoder wrote 4 days ago:
Intel based? That adds a 35% markup. AMD or ARM I would think would be
platforms one would invest in if making something new.
loop0 wrote 4 days ago:
They have my attention here. As a long time thinkpad x220 user and tons
of mods and upgrades in it I like the repairability approach. As a
linux user I would prefer if they had an all AMD option.
Congrats on this project, I hope you folks succeed and bring more
companies to make laptops/hardware with the same approach.
vermaden wrote 4 days ago:
So its now innovative to get back to 2010 and re-create old ThinkPad
laptop with unusable 'island' keyboard? :)
ploxiln wrote 4 days ago:
I don't see any mention of the firmware and drivers efforts for this.
Firmware and drivers always end up more difficult to deal with than
expected.
The Fairphone company was surprised by difficulties upgrading and
patching android without support from their BSP vendor, causing many
months delays of updates _and_ years shorter support life than they
were planning for their earlier models.
I purchased the Purism Librem 13 laptop from their kickstarter, and
they had great plans for firmware and drivers, but also great
difficulty following through. The trackpad chosen for the first models
took much longer than expected to get upstream linux support, and it
was never great (it turned out to be impossible to reliably detect
their variant automatically). They finally hired someone with
sufficient skill to do the coreboot port _months_ after initial units
were delivered, and delivered polished coreboot firmware for their
initial laptops _years_ after they started the kickstarter.
So, why should we have confidence in the firmware and drivers that
Framework will deliver :)
bmd3991 wrote 3 days ago:
Semi off-topic, but how is working in the firmware/drivers/systems
space? Everyone always talks about how hard it is, so that makes me
think that companies would be paying a premium for good systems devs.
On the other hand there aren't as many companies who have that need.
I enjoyed the low level work I did in college and have been thinking
about getting back into it, but there are no jobs involving it near
me (moving to Seattle in a bit so this should change)
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec, and we're
using a mature off the shelf BIOS solution shipping in other
notebooks today. We chose our key components with driver stability
across both Windows and Linux in mind. We know this is something we
have to get right to deliver a credible competitor to all the great
notebooks already in the market, so it is something we focused on
from the start.
rkangel wrote 3 days ago:
Have you considered providing an out of the box Linux experience?
I have no intention of using the Ubuntu provided with a Lenovo
laptop if I buy one, but the fact that that there is a fully
working Linux distro for that machine means that all of the
requisite bits and pieces are somewhere in the Open Source
community (and because I use Fedora, I'm almost certainly using a
new enough version of Kernel, Gnome etc. that they're already
there).
john4532452 wrote 3 days ago:
Will the user be able to replace custom BIOS, that is a killer
feature no notebook or laptop offers ?
Tijdreiziger wrote 3 days ago:
> Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec
Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing this statement. Your 'embedded
controller' (whatever that may be) firmware is based on a web
browser?
eightails wrote 3 days ago:
I think they are referring to part of the Chromium OS project,
which seems to be open source firmware for basic device functions
including "power sequencing, keyboard control, thermal control,
battery charging, and verified boot" [0]
[0]
URI [1]: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec...
Tijdreiziger wrote 3 days ago:
Ah, I didn't know Chrome OS had an OSS counterpart. Thanks!
QuinnWilton wrote 3 days ago:
Chromium EC. It's the part of Chromebooks that handles things
like keypresses:
URI [1]: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec...
southerntofu wrote 3 days ago:
Hi, i'm interested about details. Are they on a wiki somewhere?
> driver stability across both Windows and Linux
Is "Linux" in this case mainline linux or does entail to use
nvidia/ati proprietary drivers? If mainline linux, is it a free
driver, or a binary blob? (see linux-libre)
> a mature off the shelf BIOS solution
Is coreboot/libreboot on your roadmap?
I'm not trying to nitpick. Congratulations on the hardware design
that looks amazing (replaceable port extensions, clever!). I
strongly believe software is also an important part of
reliability/durability, that's why my questions :)
cpill wrote 3 days ago:
if you have a fingerprint reader that works in Linux I'm in!
odysseus wrote 3 days ago:
My Thinkpad fingerprint reader works in Linux. Well, it works
perhaps 80-85% of the time. See
URI [1]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1231185/fingerprint-logi...
kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
Working on it!
abrowne wrote 3 days ago:
Please support the Linux Vendor Firmware Service [1] :-)
URI [1]: https://fwupd.org/
2020aj wrote 4 days ago:
Librem was geared towards openness/security, this just has a focus on
repairability. Can Framework not just use off the shelf parts that
already have the proper firmware/drivers available for windows/linux
and then encounter none of the same issues? Or is the issue the
interfaces b/w the modules and mainboard?
ploxiln wrote 3 days ago:
For desktop computers this is a lot easier, for laptops it's still
not that easy. The motherboards are not just COTS "Asus z490 prime"
or whatever, and you can't just include a nice standard USB mouse
which requires no drivers. If you don't have a good plan for how
you will ensure you have good motherboard firmware and touchpad
drivers, then they won't turn out good.
Luckily it seems like Framework do have this well under control
(somewhat quietly :)
Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
I think the particular problem for devices based on ARM SoCs is
theyâre not on the mainline kernel, support for hardware and for
upgrading software relies on a whole pile of hacks on top of an
ancient kernel version, and that means that upgrading to a new
Android version requires applying a pile of new hacks on top again,
and can be very laborious to get a reasonable, stable result. So
Fairphone used a chipset whose manufacturer quickly dropped support
for upgrading beyond a certain Android version, and that made it
difficult for Fairphone to support the upgrade themselves.
Whereas if x86 systems have support on the mainline kernel, future
kernel upgrades will be supported.
TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
This could change with support for Apple's M1 chip being added to
the Linux mainline hopefully later this year.
908B64B197 wrote 3 days ago:
Is there a reason why there needs to be so much tweaks to get the
kernel running on a modern SoC?
Any reason there couldn't be a "canonical" ARM64 standard for
SoC?
spijdar wrote 3 days ago:
There is a "canonical" ARM64 standard, so to speak -- ARM's
ServerReady architecture, which implements UEFI+ACPI, which
coupled with the right hardware, could create the same kind of
ecosystem Intel/PCs have enjoyed for so long.
The problem is a lot of ARM SoCs have tightly integrated,
custom hardware which requires modified or new drivers, and the
tweaks needed to use them are often either very dirty and won't
be accepted into mainline Linux without basically redoing them,
or are occasionally just hooks for proprietary userland blobs
to interface with, and are effectively obfuscated, satisfying
the "letter of the law" for GPL but no more.
There are some devices like this on x86 too, FWIW -- Google's
Pixelbook, as an example, has a few devices that effectively
need a custom fork of Linux to get the audio device to function
correctly, because it's driven over i2c (IIRC) and needs
special blobs uploaded and an out-of-tree driver to function.
ARM SoCs could be more "PC like" but it'd be more expensive,
which as far as I can tell is a big reason it hasn't happened.
No real incentive as people don't seem to care if their OS goes
out of date in 4 years.
hinkley wrote 4 days ago:
That recessed port trick is something I've thought about every time I
snag my Logitech universal receiver on my laptop bag. Only difference
is that USB-C puts that idea on steroids.
rkagerer wrote 4 days ago:
With an aluminum rather than magnesium or other body, how bad do you
anticipate the flex will be?
hinkley wrote 4 days ago:
Reinforcing fins can do quite a bit. Macbooks don't have a lot of
flex.
However, Apple has some patents that cover building up solid aluminum
with stir welding instead of CNCing out of a solid block.
You might have to challenge that patent (prior art, Boeing patents
that may be older) to make it cheap, but if it's enthusiast targeted,
an extra 50 bucks or whatever might be just fine for people.
baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
You cannot weld aluminium, or at least not on the cheap.
The only real "weldable aluminium" known today are
scandium-aluminium alloys which are both hard to get, and
expensive.
hinkley wrote 3 days ago:
Cannondale bicycles would like to have a word with you. They
started out making bikes out of 'aircraft aluminum' which if
memory serves was [6061]( [1] ), which is magnesium silicon, not
scandium. Do you mean you can't weld aluminum in an oxygen
environment? I think you're right about that at least. I think
they used argon, and then had a patented(?) annealing process to
keep it from falling apart under the customers. Not sure what
they do now.
You have probably flown in an airplane with stir-welded aluminum.
Stir welding is a bit like... making velcro and sticking it
together at exactly the same time.
Nobody is building things out of 'aluminum' so it feels like
nitpicking to argue about metalurgy for a company that is just
going to buy stock in block or plate form. With a bunch of
electronics nerds.
I only brought the metal in to talk about stiffening and because
some patents may make it difficult for them to build a work-alike
that lives up to their hype.
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy
baybal2 wrote 3 days ago:
There are somewhat weldable alumium alloys, but their joints
are still nowhere near as strong as steel ones in relative
comparison.
And you still have very painstaking process of finding the
optimal welding recipe for the part, post-treatment, and
defectoscopy.
znpy wrote 4 days ago:
this is a fantastic concept.
also, this look like a realistic way to tackle e-waste (not the
apple-esque BS)
I understand that most of the e-waste is in the motherboard and the
battery, but still, it's something. It's a huge step in the right
directions.
hnedeotes wrote 4 days ago:
They look pretty good to me, I just shelled out for a laptop but would
love to see the concept take over.
The build quality is always the most essential:
- monitor - this is what we look at for hours on every day
- keyboard - I personally like macbook's perhaps is just being used to
them (pre and post butterfly, that one I haven't tried)
- trackpad - every other trackpad I tried besides mbs feel always a bit
plastiky, also, no outside keys for the trackpad
Good luck
simonebrunozzi wrote 4 days ago:
Which OS will you be able to run?
rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
How much linux support are you going to be providing?
Eg S3 sleep and fingerprint sensor drivers?
kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
Tigerlake supports modern standby otherwise known as S0ix. We are
also testing fingerprint support - but look out for Linux guides for
instructions until things get upstreamed.
sleepybrett wrote 4 days ago:
Hints of the Sandbenders stuff from gibson's Idoru. But like the
modular smartphone products (fairphone, essential phone, etc) probably
doomed to failure.
rodolphoarruda wrote 4 days ago:
This is really a great idea! Congrats to the team.
I didn't read the entire text, but here's my question: do you have in
your plans to ship worldwide.
josefresco wrote 4 days ago:
I can't imagine the stress of launching a "sustainable" tech product
like this, knowing every aspect of the product and business will be
ultra-scrutinized.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
I had a 7 year long trial run for this by making consumer VR a thing
;)
josefresco wrote 3 days ago:
I guess confidence is not your main issue ;-)
AdmiralAsshat wrote 4 days ago:
Looks like it's still tapering off towards the edge.
Feel like they might've been able to fit slightly more space for port
swapping if they had gone for the uniform aluminum slab design of the
Chromebook Pixel, which, to me, is still beautiful:
URI [1]: https://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/02/google_pixel_chromebook_hero...
owenversteeg wrote 4 days ago:
This looks really cool. I'm especially loving the weight. I really
dislike a lot of recent laptops for their fragility and lack of upgrade
capacity, so currently I'm using a T440P which comes in around 2.26kg -
so if this is 1.3kg that's nearly a kilo of weight savings.
The replaceable battery is great, the weight is great, the design is
pretty good, and the keyboard seems fine - 1.5mm of key travel is
usable. (The T440P has around 2.2mm, and according to [0] all current
Thinkpads are 1.8mm except X1 Carbon/Yoga/L14/L15 at 1.5mm)
My big question, though, is the durability. If you drop this thing a
few times, will I have any problems? What about water damage - have you
tested anything (intentionally or unintentionally?) Any drain holes? If
I was to spill a decent bit of water on the keyboard, would that have a
10%/30%/80% chance of killing it?
[0]
URI [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/jhay05/which_curren...
owenversteeg wrote 4 days ago:
Also, I'm sure there are lots of people in this thread who've tried a
similar search, so what laptops are out there with most of the
following: good keyboard, under 1.5kg, durable, battery life >6h, RAM
> 8GB, semi-repairable?
My current model is a T440p, so using that as a comparison.
So far my search has turned up:
- Old Macbooks where the keyboard was still decent (but unfortunately
they're not too tough or repairable)
- T470s or T460s: the T460s was the first model with the new
magnesium case and the T470s keeps the same case (and is only a small
change to the T460s.) Advantage of that is a 250g weight savings
(1.35kg total!), 49 Wh battery that lasts 6-8 hours and charges to
80% in 90 minutes, traditional "yellow" Thinkpad charger on the T460s
and USB-C charging on the T470s. It doesn't come at a huge cost in
terms of durability either - still passes the MIL-STD-810. The T460s
was the last of the S line to have drainage holes - the T470 and
T460s have them, the T470s and T480s do not, but instead claim to
have a "spillproof keyboard". Versus the T450s, it has HDMI out
instead of VGA, has both batteries inside the case (no increased
battery capacity), and better battery life with the base config.
Unfortunately the batteries aren't removable on the outside, so it's
a bit more of a pain to buy a used version of these (as you'd want to
replace the batteries.)
- T450s: same case as T440 versions, last model with VGA out (which
is super useful, I had a popular rant on VGA here a year or two ago:
[1] ) Basically a mildly upgraded T440s, which is a good, if heavy
laptop. Default capacity of 48Wh (24+24) and total weight 1.58kg with
standard battery - good for 5h new, or 96Wh (24+72) and total weight
1.77kg with extended battery - good for ~10h new. And you can hot
swap because of the internal battery!
- T480s: very similar physically (weight + case + materials wise) to
T470s. Significantly faster processor than T470s, continuing the
trend started by the T470s of spill resistant + no drain holes.
Mechanical shutter for the webcam! Same keyboard as T470s, aka very
good. Better thermal management than T470s! Speakers still the same
old Thinkpad speakers, aka shitty. Slightly larger battery - 57Wh vs
51Wh in T470s - and a fast charge to 80% in 60 minutes - so 9-12
hours of real world battery life.
If anyone has any additional models to suggest, please do!
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20431195
bogwog wrote 4 days ago:
I too love my Thinkpad(s), but pitting this thing against such high
standards is asking a lot.
Sure it'd be nice, but I'm not going to hold it against them if their
laptop can't survive a fire/spill/drop.
rch wrote 4 days ago:
That looks a lot like my first laptop, the Sharp Actius MM10. I'd get
one of these on that basis alone.
The Ars article says the body is aluminium, but if I recall correctly,
the Actius was a mag alloy of some kind (which I'd prefer). Either way,
I'm curious.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
The body is 50% post consumer recycled aluminum. We did consider
magnesium alloy, but availability of recycled material,
infrastructure for recycling, and costs are all prohibitive compared
to aluminum.
rch wrote 3 days ago:
Makes sense, I just have a sensitivity to aluminum so I'm always
looking for a way to get away from the MBP without going to
plastic.
rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
Wow this sounds like an almost perfect laptop for me
_448 wrote 4 days ago:
After looking at this, I thought of another approach to achieve
somewhat similar goal. Anyone interested in exploring the idea? I am a
software engineer. So a hardware engineer and an industrial designer
would be helpful to punch hole into my idea. Let us connect and explore
some possibilities. My email is in my profile.
tweetle_beetle wrote 4 days ago:
A bit like the comments about incongruous items in the recent Apple lab
video, I find the presence of a Pocket Operator on the video
demonstrating ease of assembly rather amusing.
They already ticked the expensive camera box, but for proper hipster
bingo success, you would also need: some kind of branded grid paper
notebook, a metal mechanical draughting pencil, a teapot with loose
leaf tea, audiophile headphones and a 40% mechanical keyboard.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
You joke, but my Grado headphones and Swanson Speed Square were only
not in the video because the shipment didn't arrive at the shoot in
time.
tweetle_beetle wrote 3 days ago:
Appreciate the honesty, that gave me a chuckle. For what it's
worth, I was only teasing about the marketing - I signed up to the
newsletter and would like to see the product suceed.
whoomp12342 wrote 4 days ago:
what happens when you want a new CPU of a new socket type? what happens
when you want 8k screens?
CarVac wrote 4 days ago:
I'd love a laptop where the keyboard is a removable PCB with
low-profile switches and integrated USB connection so you can make a
custom layout, like the Mitosis or ortholinear or anything you please.
leojfc wrote 4 days ago:
Yes, I would buy any laptop which offered an ortholinear keyboard
option, with customisable firmware.
I switched to using an Ergodox after long hours working on a MacBook
Pro made my wrists start to hurt and my pinkie finger to go numb (and
this was back in the day when a MBP keyboard was still decent!). I
can still type full speed on a regular keyboard but it doesnât feel
as comfortable, and I think thereâs a genuine health issue at least
for some people.
belval wrote 4 days ago:
Lot of optimism in the comments, but unless they have their supply
chain pinned down I really really doubt that it will ship in any
significant quantity in Summer 2021.
The truth is that right now most components are insanely hard to get,
not just GPUs and they will have to play the bidding game (which will
make their laptop significantly more expansive) or delay. For a small
volume like theirs, there is a non zero probability that they will get
dropped by their manufacturer completely.
I'd love to get my hands on one of their laptop though!
hinkley wrote 4 days ago:
I'm on a kickstarter that was supposed to ship in the fall and
they've had quite a lot of trouble working with manufacturing
partners to sort out quality control and pick one. Harder to discuss
a physical object when you can't be in the same room.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
I shared this in another comment: We placed our forecasts and risk
buys on most chips early in anticipation of the silicon crunch that
is coming this year. So far, we don't see anything that puts us at
risk, short of there being massive unexpected upside on consumer
demand (a good problem to have!).
belval wrote 3 days ago:
That's great to hear, for the record I really really hope that the
project will succeed, the current trend in laptops is soldering
everything and we are generating an insane amount of waste.
pimterry wrote 4 days ago:
How does this charge? Looks like it has 4 fully swappable ports, plus a
headphone jack. Where does the power go?
Do I need to always have a USB-C adapter in one of those slots, and it
charges through that maybe? That sort-of defeats some of the
swappability though, if one port is effectively unchangeable. Might as
well have a fixed USB-C port, since that's simpler and more
space-efficient. Or is there another port or something planned that's
just not shown on these prototypes?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
It charges through any of the four Expansion Card ports, currently
through the USB-C card. Part of the reason we didn't use a fixed
USB-C port for this is that the Expansion Card path allows for
alternate power schemes in the future like magnetic attach, adapting
to existing proprietary connectors, or even crazy things like POE.
mwcampbell wrote 4 days ago:
> Designed for the future of work with a 13.5â 3:2 screen
I wonder if the "future" this laptop is designed for was canceled by
COVID. Now that so many of us are working from home, maybe we should
optimize more for a stationary work environment with no compromises on
input or output. That is, a desktop machine with unconstrained monitor
and keyboard sizes.
salicideblock wrote 4 days ago:
On the other hand, for more traditional companies, covid and
expectations of post-covid mean replacing 100% office time with a mix
of office and home time.
In these cases this mix means more mobility, so more value to laptops
over desktops.
lukaszkups wrote 4 days ago:
are different keyboard layouts even considered?
I hate those small up/down arrows.
Would also love to see the keyboard layout with additional column on
the right (with PgUp, PgDown, Ins, Del etc. keys) like Mech-15 from
Eluktronics have.
GekkePrutser wrote 4 days ago:
Hmmm nice idea but they left some obvious gaps.. With custom port
selection, there should be more port options, like ethernet. The
chassis is thick enough to support one of those collapsible sockets at
the very least.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
We have a few more Expansion Cards currently in development and a
very long list of cards in early exploration. The ones we've
announced so far are the ones we plan to have available at launch:
USB-C, USB-A, HDMI, DisplayPort, MicroSD, and 250GB and 1TB storage.
aidenn0 wrote 4 days ago:
Are the expansion cards large enough to accommodate a full-size SD
card slot? My current laptop has a PCIe-attached SD card reader
and it serves dual-use as storage for my windows VM and getting
files off of my camera. The micro-SD cards I've tried are just too
slow to run as the system disk for a windows VM.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
Full-size SD was actually what we intended to accommodate when we
set the dimensions of the Expansion Card. We started with
MicroSD/UFS Card though because it allowed us to keep tooling in
common with our other cards. We would like to do full-size SD as
well though.
branon wrote 4 days ago:
This looks great. Would like to see a model with a Zen 3 or ARM
processor, as buying Intel hardware in 2021 is a bit of a hard sell for
me.
Outside of that, anything modular/repairable gets an A+.
wcerfgba wrote 4 days ago:
Agreed, I love everything about this but I'm currently waiting to buy
something with a 5800H.
heroHACK17 wrote 4 days ago:
This product would make more sense if they defined "consumer" as
"engineer-inclined consumer". Swapping parts will drive the everyday
consumer away from this product.
orthecreedence wrote 3 days ago:
No? This opens up an entire repair market for normal consumers as
well. Instead of buying a whole new laptop, you can replace the
screen, or the keyboard, or etc etc.
Just because you won't be doing the repair yourself doesn't mean
"welp, repairable laptops are dumb and only nerds will use them!"
Just means you don't have to buy a new laptop every time one little
thing breaks.
jblow wrote 4 days ago:
Hi,
When I saw this announcement I was hoping that I could finally buy a
laptop with a good trackpad, with buttons, and a good keyboard again.
But looking at the announcement, it seems like trackpad and keyboard
quality are far from anyone's mind, and it just looks like the laptop
is copying Apple stylistically like everyone else, which means it is
going to be kind-of unusable and I won't want to use it. (Especially
when running Windows, those kinds of giant Apple-esque trackpads are
death, because you'll keep accidentally moving files into places you
didn't mean to, and then of course there's the general unresponsiveness
once you add all the PalmCheck and turn-off-trackpad-for-n-secons after
typing junk).
I like the idea of a laptop built for quality, but for me the #1
determinant of quality is my area of constant physical contact with the
laptop, the keyboard and trackpad. And sadly, those look like
afterthoughts here.
(For context -- I have bought and heavily used an average of more than
one laptop per year, every year, since 1998, and have been dismayed to
watch the quality trend constantly downward over that time).
wishinghand wrote 4 days ago:
It's strange to see a complaint about the Apple trackpad, because
whenever I use a non-Apple laptop, I despair at the trackpad. The
current design is too large, but the pre-USB-C models had a perfect
size and UX. I haven't ever experienced an equal.
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
The Apple trackpad seems to be really polarising - I often this see
on HN: fans surprised anyone would dislike it, and opponents
surprised anyone would like it!
Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I have a 13" MBP, and find the
buttons need way too much pressure, even with the sensitivity
ramped up. There's also something I can't quantify... there's a
feeling of it being laggy, and somehow "unpleasant" to drag my
finger across. I prefer just about every other trackpad I've ever
used, even those in dirt cheap netbooks.
krrrh wrote 3 days ago:
âButtonsâ
Not sure if weâre talking about the same thing with that
plural, but the first thing I change on a new Mac is enabling tap
to click. It works great and you can avoid the annoyance of the
audible click.
The second thing is to enable three finger drag, which the moves
into Accessibility settings about 5 years ago.
erikpukinskis wrote 3 days ago:
Yes, all that. And then turn the sensitivity up to max.
codezero wrote 3 days ago:
I suspect it has something to do with their typing habits and/or
some physical issue.
Personally, the newest Macbooks became a problem for me despite
the history of amazing palm rejection on Macbooks, I have sort of
sweaty hands and when they increased the trackpad size, that
combined with how I type (palm resting on the chassis, not
raised), it causes a lot of jitter (I say a lot, it's super rare,
but just enough to train me away from it) and I've ended up using
an external mouse exclusively, but in the past year, uh, I
haven't been mobile so that's just a nonissue :)
ppezaris wrote 4 days ago:
not intending to start an apple-vs-msft flamewar, but this has been a
solved problem on the mac since forever. is the experience that bad
on windows laptops that you don't want a big trackpad? genuine
question.
freeone3000 wrote 4 days ago:
yeah. you definitely want palm detection off or it'll miss a good
deal of swipes (if you mix typing and mousing). with palm detection
off, you need the touchpad to be slightly offset to the left and
small enough that it fits between your hands at rest.
yunyu wrote 4 days ago:
It is for Synaptics drivers (some manufacturers like Dell, Razer,
HP used to default to those) but not for precision touchpad drivers
(what's used in the Surfaces).
dcow wrote 4 days ago:
In my experience trackpad and touch support on Windows has improved
immensely since the introduction of the Surface. I recall the
experience youâre describing but associate it with the 2010-2015
era .
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us. We built
in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm thick
laptop. The touchpad surface feels great and performs well. I hear
you on the touchpad buttons though. That is something we've done a
little exploration on. The touchpad is an end-user replaceable
module, but we can't commit to a three button version materializing
just yet.
m463 wrote 3 days ago:
I think if you could buck the "flat thin keys" trend you would
probably develop lots of customers for life.
Thin and flat has nice visual appeal, but I think you should
approach it from a tactile direction.
My ideal keyboard would have a little extra throw, and they keys
would be sculpted to match the curve of your fingertips for comfort
and to help you center on the keys.
I think the thinkpad keyboards were favorites for a reason.
accelbred wrote 3 days ago:
Are they mechanical keys?
Liskni_si wrote 4 days ago:
Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well.
This is the best layout humanity ever invented: [1] Classic arrow
keys, separate volume buttons, separate
back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, â¦
URI [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/cs...
rplnt wrote 3 days ago:
While I agree with you one the F keys and home block, I also
understand that's something that people might not prefer.
What I don't understand are the arrows. I've been using MB Pro
daily for over 3 years now and I still regularly miss up/down
arrows. I would never buy a device that merges them into size of
one key as the MB Pro does, as well as this one.
nine_k wrote 3 days ago:
I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards, too.
But am I the only person considering a split ergonomic layout
with thumb clusters, to give your pinkies some rest? The touchpad
could live between the keyboard halves, and never be touched by
mistake.
I wonder if that could be an option.
croh wrote 3 days ago:
haha fn on extreme left. are you kidding?
Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
Fn position is obviously configurable. I have ctrl/fn swapped,
but plenty of people don't, and that's fine. (And then plently
of people have ctrl on capslock, which is also fine. I couldn't
get used to it.)
com2kid wrote 3 days ago:
See, I disagree, I use home/end/pageup/pagedown all the time, and
having them separate in an awkward spot is annoying. I prefer
having them overlaid on the arrow keys, with fn to access them.
IMHO that is the one area laptop keyboards can superior to full
size keyboards.
jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
This is what makes newer ThinkPad keyboard layouts great at
least in terms of arrow keys - the useless icon keys from the
GP's posted image are now PgUp/PgDown, meaning you can access
at least two out of the four without annoying two-handed
operation. Home/End can still be bound to arrow keys plus
modifier, but even there it's nice to have a dedicated key
available.
Basically, full-size arrow keys are what really makes the
difference, and at that point you could get the best of both
worlds anyway.
(Let's not talk about other recent/misguided ThinkPad keyboard
developments though.)
Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
I actually use those "useless" keys (back/forward in the
browser) more often than PgUp/PgDown, as I usually scroll
using the touchpad.
But it doesn't really matter, as long as the physical keys
are there. They can be remapped.
jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
Never said they were useless! I also use them all the time.
There is, however, only space for two extra keys in the
holes of the four-arrow layout.
eightails wrote 3 days ago:
This is one of the reasons I actually really like the Surface
Book keyboard [0]. It has home/end/pageup/pagedown as primary
keys in the fn row, where they all fall to hand just by moving
your right hand up from the home row.
Key size and placement is generally pretty perfect for the size
imo (backspace, shift, enter, etc aren't cramped), and key
travel and feel is up there with the best.
The up/down arrow keys and lack of brightness control in the fn
row are the only real problems.
[0]
URI [1]: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10...
Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts
then, so that you can choose a variant when purchasing it and
then replace it with different one if you find out you don't
like it.
(And then, let's not forget that keyboard layouts are somewhat
configurable in software. It's easy to bind pageup to
mod-uparrow and pagedown to mod-downarrow. But it can't be done
if the physical keys are missing, so physical keyboard layouts
with more keys are preferable to those with less keys.
Unfortunately fn-combos are usually hardwired in the Embedded
Controller and can't be changed easily in software.)
fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
> We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts
then
URI [1]: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-fre...
Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
By configurable, I mainly meant the physical layout of
keys, configurable at purchase time. So that one can get a
laptop with a trendy 6-row chiclet, or a proper 7-row
classic ThinkPad keyboard.
But yeah, being able to override the key mapping in EC is
an important feature as well, and I'm glad someone's doing
it! I really hope for the future where all these pieces
come together: a laptop with a good physical keyboard
(configurable/swappable, so that everyone can get their
meaning of "good"), with configurable EC, replaceable
components, etc. That would be a dream.
wishinghand wrote 3 days ago:
At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my
fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle
numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you mentioned
with layers.
layer8 wrote 3 days ago:
Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of software.
Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys
usability and muscle memory.
wishinghand wrote 3 days ago:
> Having to press yet another additional modifier key
destroys usability and muscle memory
I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as
little as possible rather than having to stretch far and wide
for those extra function keys.
layer8 wrote 3 days ago:
For me itâs the opposite: I get RSI from having to
stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously,
whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.
wishinghand wrote 2 days ago:
Right, which is why I wanted the non-stretching version.
The modifiers are quite reachable with about 50-52 keys.
rgoulter wrote 3 days ago:
If there are different preferences for arrangement of
keyboard layout, then my vote goes to: it would be
amazing if there were a laptop where such things could be
customized.
Then the people who want niche 40% or 36-key layouts can
go with that, and those who prefer more keys can go with
that.
IMO, the row-stagger is an unergonomic, archaic
skeuomorphism. This is also a niche opinion.
Unfortunately, I'm sure there are practical reasons why
"modular keyboard" can't happen (not enough market
interest, strength of the laptop hull suffers if the
keyboard is a separate module, laptop couldn't be as
thin, etc.).
layer8 wrote 4 days ago:
Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T arrow
keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, and the Menu
key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.
tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
No buttons is clearly the logical choice. I can't imagine it would
be worth building a three button version to satisfy that miniscule
niche.
messo wrote 4 days ago:
I was dreaming about such a laptop only a few days ago (admittedly with
an IBM/Lenovo-like keyboard). Do you offer ANSI keyboards for European
countries? It would be great if a nordic keyboard layout was an option
and easily swapable.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
We have both ANSI and ISO layouts, and we've designed the keyboard to
be end-user replaceable. We'll be adding more keyboard languages as
we expand into more countries. The clear keyboard shown in our
product photos is actually real too! We'll be offering clear and
blank for the people who want that.
messo wrote 3 days ago:
Great! The clear keyboard also sounds interesting as I could hack
together my own Norwegian Colemak layout.
* I meant ISO, not ANSI in my parent comment :)
andrewshadura wrote 4 days ago:
Is the ISO layout an actual ISO, i.e. with an extra key between the
left Shift and Z?
By the way, Iâd love to have a Trackpoint or an equivalent. Or a
trackball.
kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
Yep the ISO layout has the \| key next to Z!
elric wrote 3 days ago:
Goodness I hope that key is there, I've had to jump through all
sorts of hoops to type comfortably on keyboards that are missing
this key.
varispeed wrote 4 days ago:
This would be perfect think to spin off your own machines. Imagine
downloading a Kicad files for motherboard, adding your own stuff,
sending off to JLCPCB or similar for assembly and then stuffing into
the laptop shell.
baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
KiCAD is not the calibre of an EDA you would use to make PC
motherboard.
varispeed wrote 3 days ago:
That depends on the frequency I guess and how integrated the chips
of your choosing are. If you don't go to idk 1GHz area, then things
can be forgiving.
Shame that the things like Altium are still out of hobbyist reach.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
That's the goal! We will actually be publishing KiCad and
OpenSCAD-based reference designs for the Expansion Cards for folks to
be able to make their own. The mainboard is a bit more challenging,
but we do want to enable an ecosystem around that as well.
Gracana wrote 4 days ago:
Do physical units exist yet? Where is the manufacturing done? It looks
expensive to manufacture in small quantities. I do like the idea, but
I'm afraid that this will become e-waste if Framework doesn't exist,
grow, and succeed for years to come.
The MNT Reform also does the "sustainable laptop" thing, via an open
source approach. It's a lot simpler to manufacture and easier for end
users to modify, and its longevity doesn't necessarily rely on MNT
Research continuing to exist. I feel that's the safer approach.
spijdar wrote 3 days ago:
They're just very different products, ultimately. I've preordered a
Reform and they're just very different laptops, in that this project
is aiming to produce a laptop that could satisfy "the masses" buying
Thinkpads or MBPs or XPS 13s etc and want the performance and
software compatibility.
Reform makes sacrifices in performance and form factor (much bulkier)
but makes up for it in basically all the parts being 3D printable on
hardware you could feasibly have at home, and even the PCBs look
simple enough I bet you could hand assemble everything except the SoM
module.
I don't think the reform could ever become "mainstream" but I don't
think it really wants to, either. This could be great if, like you
mentioned, it "takes off" and converts more regular laptop users to a
more repairable laptop than their old ones. We'll see...
auraham wrote 4 days ago:
This seems to be a really great product. I understand many of its
features may change in the future. However, I would like to see a spec
sheet in the website. Also, I wonder what is the difference between the
standard model and the DIY version.
On the other hand, the interior and exterior of the laptop look
gorgeous.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
At launch, the standard pre-built model and DIY have the same CPU
options available. DIY allows a broader range of memory and storage
options, including bringing your own. The pre-built offers Windows
10 Home or Pro, while DIY offers those plus the option to ship
without an OS installed. Both versions allow Expansion Card
selection at order time.
Edit: And we will be sharing full spec sheets before we open
pre-orders.
aidenn0 wrote 4 days ago:
Ironically I wish you launched a bit later; my laptop is only 3
years old and it would be rather ironic were I to throw it out to
move to something more sustainable. I'll have to hope you succeed
enough to still be around when it's 5-10 years old (or something
breaks that I can't fix with the appropriate application of
hot-air).
james_pm wrote 4 days ago:
Expansion cards = square dongles with USB-C connectors that plug into
the frame.
thewalkingbeard wrote 4 days ago:
Why are these interesting niche laptops always so small?
tablespoon wrote 4 days ago:
> Designed for the future of work with a 13.5â 3:2 screen with
2256x1504 resolution
I approve of this. 16:9 computer screens are an abomination.
markyc wrote 4 days ago:
the only thing I'd ask for is a no fan version
kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
We have no no fan/low fan support on our firmware backlog - basically
reducing the SOC TDP to the point where the laptop becomes a
passively cooled and does not require the fan. So you can have
performance when you want it, and silence when you want.
Shared404 wrote 4 days ago:
You have my attention. Will there be support for other processor
architecture's at some point?
Assuming this isn't vaporware, and is near as good as it sounds, this
checks all the boxes I'd like for a laptop, esp. if it gets ARM and/or
RISC support.
yannikyeo wrote 4 days ago:
Will there be a version of keyboard without the Windows logo?
iFire wrote 4 days ago:
Will you support Thunderbolt 3?
The use of going portable and then docking in with a top of the line
video card, monitor and proper keyboards is so exciting.
kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
We support USB4 - which has similar performance as thunderbolt 3.
Multiple display pipes + USB + PCIE tunneling. It also supports
40gbps of aggregate bandwidth per port.
Tigerlake also supports HBR3 with display compression - so you can
run multiple 4k displays from a single port.
iFire wrote 4 days ago:
USB4 is documented to be upward compatible with Thunderbolt 3.
Thanks for the response.
Will be wanting to try [1] on The Framework Laptop.
Excited!
URI [1]: https://www.sonnettech.com/product/egfx-breakaway-box/over...
malkia wrote 4 days ago:
Huh, not sure but site was not available through my company's VPN. It
works though outside of it.
tromp wrote 4 days ago:
What led framework to choose Intel CPUs over AMD ones?
Did it simplify the design of the system?
cpursley wrote 3 days ago:
No AMD is an absolute deal breaker for me. Might as well get a mac.
fiddlerwoaroof wrote 4 days ago:
Yeah, if Iâm getting another laptop with an Intel CPU, Iâll just
get a Mac: a Ryzen 4XXX laptop with Mac-like build quality would make
me reconsider.
freeopinion wrote 4 days ago:
A modular laptop that doesn't offer an AMD module? So, so close.
Hopefully the AMD board will ship late Summer 2021. Lack of AMD
support is a showstopper for some.
chaosharmonic wrote 4 days ago:
If I had to make an guess from how they're describing the I/O, USB4
would be the immediate limitation.
jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
This would also suggest that once AMD gets their USB4 act together
(hopefully starting with Rembrandt?), Mobile Ryzen should become an
option.
chaostheory wrote 4 days ago:
This. I would bite if it was an AMD chip. Intel is just overpriced.
CoolGuySteve wrote 4 days ago:
Yeah it's too bad, if this laptop had a 16 thread AMD CPU, it would
be exactly what I'm looking for: a 3lbs mobile workstation that I can
service/upgrade myself.
hamburglar wrote 4 days ago:
The page about smart TVs makes me wonder if anyone has
reverse-engineered the interface between a Samsung Frame TVâs main
controller box and the panel that goes on the wall (itâs a remarkably
thin cable that carries both the signal and power and can easily be
fished through the wall). I absolutely love the panel itself with its
wonderful display characteristics, but the software that drives
everything from the main controller box is such trash that Iâll
probably never buy one again). Iâd happily buy a 3rd party box that
would drive that display panel and be free of the buggy, spying, shitty
UX that Samsung provides.
stephen wrote 4 days ago:
I know trackpads won, but would love a trackpoint. I keep buying
Thinkpads solely for that feature.
Liskni_si wrote 4 days ago:
I don't use the trackpoint often on my ThinkPad, but I wouldn't buy a
laptop without it. It's impossible to use the touchpad in a confined
space such as an airplane (economy class) or a bus.
maximzxc wrote 4 days ago:
same for me
bxparks wrote 4 days ago:
How do I scroll a page up and down with a trackpoint (on Windows and
Linux)? I've tried using a trackpoint, but the two-finger swipe up
and down on a trackpad is a convenience that I cannot seem to live
without.
stephen wrote 3 days ago:
Sure! I'm typing on this USB keyboard: [1] And to scroll I press
the middle blue button (below space bar), and then push the
trackpoint stick up/down. The mouse cursor doesn't move, and
instead the OS just scrolls the window.
(Fwiw I'm on Linux and this behavior just worked out of the box,
for both my generic desktop w/this keyboard & Thinkpad laptop.)
Obligatory fanboy note, while performing this scroll action, I only
have to move my thumb ~0.5" off the space bar, and my pointer
finger ~1" off "j". So there is very little physical movement
required to scroll (or click), vs. moving your whole palm up & down
~6" to the trackpad.
URI [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-Keyboard-Tr...
bxparks wrote 2 days ago:
Hmm, the middle mouse button is bound to "paste text from buffer"
on Linux (probably X11 more accurately), so I keep pasting random
text into the edit box or terminal window. And if I click on that
middle button, then change my mind about scrolling the window,
then release that button, it pastes the buffer. It looks like I
have to move the trackpoint just slightly to change my mind
I don't know. Maybe people can be trained to workaround all this,
but it seems very fragile and unintuitive to me. If there was a
way to bind the middle button to one of the modifier keys (e.g.
Alt, Ctrl, Shift, Fn, Super/Window), I can see that being a
better UX. Then I can hit the modifier key, then change my mind
without affecting anything.
skavi wrote 4 days ago:
thereâs a scroll button iirc. You hold it down, and the
trackpoint scrolls instead of moving the cursor.
messo wrote 4 days ago:
Same for me, but I can understand if it is hard to implement in the
current design.
skadamat wrote 4 days ago:
This is super cool! Any plans to release a trackpad with the classic 2
physical buttons?
david927 wrote 4 days ago:
Thank you so much for doing this. It's really needed.
I once had an HP Envy laptop which was so poorly made that I refuse to
buy anything from HP again.
intrasight wrote 4 days ago:
This will only be "real" if an when there's an ecosystem of clones as
happened with the original IBM PC. But it's definitely about time that
we had such standards for laptops.
samizdis wrote 4 days ago:
Ars Technica has a sceptical but optimistic/hopeful take on it: [1]
Edit to add quote from Ars article:
Framework is promising an awful lot in its very first productâ"thin
as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" is a pretty tall
order to live up to. We very much want to believe, but it's going to
take a full Ars Technica teardown before we're completely convinced.
Although we're skeptical, we are hopefulâthe fledgling company does
have a pretty solid pedigree. Framework founder Nirav Patel was Oculus
VR's head of hardware from 2012 to 2017, and he was a Facebook director
of engineering beyond that. The company's team also includes design,
engineering, and operations people hailing from Apple, Google, and
Lenovo.
URI [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/framework-startup-desi...
Igelau wrote 3 days ago:
> it's going to take a full Ars Technica teardown before we're
completely convinced.
Read: please send us a free one
40four wrote 3 days ago:
With all do respect, but who gives a sh*t what Ars Technica thinks
in regards to this?
This project looks unbelievable! I am super excited for this, as many
many others are too obviously. Iâll be honest Iâm not even going
to click on the Ars Technical article, their opinion couldnât be
less interesting to me.
No doubt this company still has a lot to prove. Can they put their
money where their mouth is? Remains to be seen.
But the fact that there is a real company out there, making an
attempt to build a product like this makes me so happy.
waheoo wrote 3 days ago:
I'm very hopefully for this company. I just hope they drop the
passive aggressive "block" remarks.
Maybe its me but I suspect they're referring to decade old ThinkPad
that have since evolved a lot to thin performance beasts.
Passive aggressive remarks towards things your target market holds
nostalgia for is likely not going to end well.
It's also setting themselves up for failure if their cooling solution
doesn't beat a modern ThinkPads dual fan solution.
The aluminium case is also extremely questionable. Is your target
demo thinkpad users or Dell users that want to take things apart.
Hate to break it to you but Dell users don't give a fuck. It's why
they have a Dell. Most think pad users value plastic chassis. They're
lighter (13" at 1.3kg, are you nuts?) more durable, and more
palatable on your lap when they warm up they're also more cost
effective.
sanitycheck wrote 3 days ago:
Hi, Dell Latitude user for 20+ years here. I buy them because
they're easily upgradable and I can get parts after the (excellent)
warranty expires. It's true I don't give a fuck about aluminium!
Dell started soldering RAM in the past couple of years though, so
if this thing exists when I next need to buy a laptop and it
remotely justifies its high price I'd be interested.
0xbadcafebee wrote 3 days ago:
> The company's team also includes design, engineering, and
operations people hailing from Apple, Google, and Lenovo.
They should avoid the appeal to authority fallacy. Those companies
hire tens of thousands of people each. Statistically speaking, half
of them could be idiots. Just because I worked at Cisco doesn't mean
I'm some product genius. (Hell, I came from an acquisition!)
SnowProblem wrote 3 days ago:
I went with a Thinkpad over a Macbook a couple years ago exactly for
these goals - repairability and modularity - so this looks pretty
amazing to me. Especially the modular ports. That said, the lack of a
discrete GPU makes this a no-go for what I do. Does anyone know if a
dGPU is planned, and also any pricing?
agumonkey wrote 3 days ago:
who else here had napkin design of just this ?
now let's have a pocket variant that revives the old google modular
project
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
The XPS 13 was the first thing I thought of when I saw this - a
repairable, upgradable, expandable XPS 13.
What they are promising sounds awesome. And AS a Brit, that is not a
word I use often :)
I really, really hope this pans out, and this summer - this is
something I'd very much like to get my hands on!
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
"thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" was not
actually a direct quote from us, but it's nice that the folks at Ars
think of our design that way!
tw04 wrote 3 days ago:
Any plans to support AMD chips?
fock wrote 3 days ago:
so compared to a run-of-the-mill Lenovo/HP/Dell - where I still
can get all parts 5 years after buying it - the innovation is that
you have decoupled the I/O ports with your modules, which might
reduce wear and failure there. Given that swapping the mainboard
will probably just be as expensive for you as for the
aforementioned devices (where some by Fujitsu even had standardized
mainboards ;)) + you probably command a significant premium in the
beginning: I really don't get the value/eco proposition except for
reusing the frame/Display (the latter of which will eventually
break as well).
Do you at least plan to release schematics so people can try to
understand failure modes of the actual things most of us without
extensive resources can't repair today?
~ typed on a Lenovo T440s (4GB soldered RAM unfortunately): swapped
the touchpad for the one from the 450s, replaced the fan, after it
made noises, started with a tiny m.2-SATA, then upgraded to a spare
SATA from the Desktop, updated the screen after it broke. Now the
bottom shell has a dent in it (full backpack) but I think I'll let
it pass. Still seems pretty repairable to me.
TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
Any chance youâd consider an ARM64 architecture in the future
(like a Broadcom SOC)?
k_sze wrote 3 days ago:
I canât stand small screens, so hereâs me hoping youâll make
a 15â or 16â model with 4K screen soon after this one.
Also looking forward to AMD or ARM instead of Intel.
Waterluvian wrote 3 days ago:
I really really really want this to be a real thing.
Good luck!!!
eecc wrote 3 days ago:
Will you consider designing the chassis to be coffee-spill
resistant? (if it's not already)
Also, will you consider establishing an EU warehouse to reduce
shipping and customs overhead?
sydd wrote 3 days ago:
I really like the concept, congrats on making it a product!
For me I have 3 concerns:
1. I'd never use a 13" laptop it's too small for work for me. Any
chance of a 15" version? It'd be also cool if it could be used to
light gaming (e.g. an Nvidia 1650 included)
2. Pricing. If this will be priced as Macbook pros you will have a
very niche segment as customers (basically silicon valley tech
people)
3. As I'm in the EU shipping needs to have a sane price (I can
understand if this is not the priority at the start)
hansel_der wrote 2 days ago:
all valid concerns i would add my voice to allthou i'd say 14"
screen is the sweetspot between portable and watching movies
Alupis wrote 3 days ago:
Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone?
I, personally, am tired of the brushed aluminum with black bezels
and keyboard look. The materials can remain the same, but some
colored options would be wonderful - like the HP Spectre x360's
with blue and black options, etc.
Everything else looks wonderful, particularly the mobo upgrades for
newer CPU/GPU combinations... and even better - getting to choose
the ports I need! Love that!
sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
+1 to this, except I would like a plastic alternative to the
aluminum in the case as well.
While it's commendable that framework is picking those materials
to environmentally conscious - I have had such terrible past
experiences with "aluminum" body laptops triggering eczema
outbreaks[1] - that I avoid metal cases as a rule now. [1]
TLDR: many metallic cases have nickel or cobalt present, and it
releases when you sweat. Sometimes this triggers contact
dermatitis (eczema) if you're sensitized to it.
URI [1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291384767_Aller...
pedalpete wrote 3 days ago:
Wouldn't a case or skin be a better solution to this than a
plastic housing?
sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
I always worry about ventilation with cases, though that may
unwarranted depending on the particular case / skin. I was
cheap (and not sure if the laptop was my root issue at the
time), so I ended up putting duct tape over the area my
wrists touched, and that helped a lot. It looked pretty silly
though.
That said, when I had the option to get a laptop where I
wouldn't have to think about it at all (plastic cased
thinkpad), I jumped for it. Maybe I've just developed a
deep-seated, emotional resentment for metal bodied laptops in
general after spending so long dealing with itchy/oozy hands,
wrists and forearms. Also all the doctors who just prescribed
steroid creams and blamed stress...
pedalpete wrote 3 days ago:
Yeah, I get it. I think plastic cases are going to be a
tough sell for a company looking to be environmentally
friendly. :)
You're also not in the majority, but as I stated, I'd
prefer a non-metal looking laptop. I've got a Razer Blade
Stealth 13 which I had to put a skin on because it's a
fingerprint magnet. Skins really aren't that bad, and
they're designed to not block the vents.
Alupis wrote 3 days ago:
Unless you just want to put a skin on your laptop, this
feels like the whole "Rubber Band Antenna-gate" thing
from Apple years back. The device should work as-is
without some extra covering being required.
Not everyone has skin allergies, but if you are mass
producing devices that will be in close contact with skin
for long durations, made with metals that are well known
to cause skin irritation - sooner or later you're going
to run into people that are affected.
sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
Additionally, due to the way that the allergic
sensitization process happens - many people only
develop a reaction after frequent, long-term exposure.
So it's very possible to use a metal laptop without
experiencing an issue for a long period of time, and
then to develop problems down the road. This, along
with the allergens sometimes being from contaminants in
the metals (so not listed and somewhat variable) -
makes it very hard to predict and to identify
afterward.
So while I'm "rare", in that I know I've got an allergy
with a very noticeable reaction that can be triggered
by laptops - many people don't know that they are at
risk of developing it, even though they are. Or maybe
they know they have a nickel sensitivity (this issue is
very common with people who wear cheap jewelry) - but
they don't know a laptop can trigger it.
Unless there's a big push to do some sort of widespread
contaminant testing on laptops, I imagine this issue
will grow if metal-body laptops continue to be the
norm.
pbronez wrote 3 days ago:
The website says the main bezel is magnetic, and can be replaced
with various colors. Probably have to wait for future revisions
before they do crazier designs... cloning Apple is a way to
message the quality / price point theyâre shooting for.
reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone?
If it came in certain tasteful colors, that would get my wife to
switch from Apple to Linux. (She works in the fashion industry.)
hedora wrote 3 days ago:
Iâll take one in all black, with a matte display; will
definitely pay extra for oled with insanely good black levels.
:-)
AceJohnny2 wrote 3 days ago:
Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case"
manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage.
That's a wild guess though, I can imagine Apple keeping that
tightly under their thumbs.
Extra colors add cost. You have to plan for which colors might be
popular, and which won't, in which case you'd have to sell at a
discount to get rid of inventory. I'd be surprised if Framework
offered that out of the gate.
Judgmentality wrote 3 days ago:
> Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case"
manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to
leverage.
Apple literally has buildings filled with thousands of CNC
machines milling aluminum laptop cases.
Apple does not manufacture things the same way as the rest of
the industry, as they have the money and the scale to do
whatever the fuck they want.
URI [1]: https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture...
Waterluvian wrote 3 days ago:
And it shows. I've never had an aluminum laptop feel like a
macbook chassis. There's just something about the thickness?
Rigidity?
airbreather wrote 3 days ago:
I have Xaiomi mac like clone that was less than half the
price for same specs and the body is totally ridged
aluminum.
samstave wrote 3 days ago:
Just an anecdote on the value of modular and repairable hardware:
Compaq vs Sun:
I was the IT Director for Decide.com in ~1998-ish and we had a
bunch of compaq servers and a bunch of SUN servers...
At the time - SUN was *giving* servers to startups to adopt their
HW.
I had to build out a ton of systems in various DCs and the SUN
machines were not rack-mountable, but were like $50,000 a unit...
and they had this *security* feature where-by the machine would not
boot up if the external case was not properly put on...
BUT - I could rebuild a compaq server in the dark with my eyes
closed. I had a compaq engineer who was delivering a replacement
server and watched me rebuild that machine in no time.
The thing was that the engineering of the compaqs was so consistent
and well done that it took single digit minutes to rebuild an
entire 4U machine vs the behemoth SUNS that bitched when their
cover wasn't properly sealed.
durst wrote 3 days ago:
Very cool! Did others in the company appreciate the benefits of
repairable hardware?
Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. Was that price
considered giving it away?
samstave wrote 3 days ago:
>>*Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. *
OMG do you want to hear war stories about SGI?
Turning SGI machines into keg-or-atores at Lucasfilm when
consolodatiting to the presidio when all these Octanes and
others were at ILM in Marin?
Yeah - many a machine was turned into a bar...
Heck the team building exercises at FB were to "build a bar for
your team..."
durst wrote 2 days ago:
The closest I came to an SGI machine was an N64, so I would
be interested in hearing the stories. What did consolidating
the SGI boards get you? Didn't that cause thermal issues?
Are Presidio and "the death star" you referenced above
related to RenderMan? I've done research on hardware for
image processing ( [1] ), so it's interesting to hear about
these systems.
URI [1]: https://aetherling.org/
reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
$50,000 sounds like a lot of money
For a server in the 90's, it sounds pretty cheap to me.
Apple's Xserves started at $3,000, and I've read they were
considered underpowered. Sun was a premium company for heavy
lifting.
The company I worked for at the time was into Silicon Graphics,
and those machines were five figures a pop just for desktops.
samstave wrote 3 days ago:
Dud, when I rebuilt Lucas Films into the presidio (I was one
of the tech designers on that project) - they had so many SGI
systems... they built Keg-arrators out of $150,000 machines
in moving.
One small note on SGI - the 02 had a "feature' that cost you
~$2500 extra for access to a particular port - can recall if
it was USB or Serial or what not, but you had to pay for this
port...
But this port was just blocked by a plastic cover - EVERY
machine had this port/ but they were covered by a plastic
cover.
The $FEE that you paid was to simply have SGI remove the
plastic cover on top of the port.
The 02 was an extremely over priced piece of shit and the
only reason it existed was to have Softimage and Maya run on
MIPS
PascLeRasc wrote 3 days ago:
Was it analog video? I worked with a guy who loved SGI
systems and still had some back in 2016 and he said they
made analog video an option, but it was the same A/V add-on
card as analog audio so they just glued plastic caps over
the video ports if you didn't opt for it.
samstave wrote 3 days ago:
Lucas was the inventor of "offline video editing" --
which became a spin-off company called Avid.
Avid was later based in seattle - but it was based on
tech that LucasFilm invented - as was CG rendering called
"the death star" which Steve Jobs bought from George for
$10,000,000 and turned it into pixar.
George didnt think that CGI was going to be profitable,
hence selling to Jobs.
Source: on the Presidio design team, I designed a
majority of their data center in that facility - and had
designed a cable interconnect matrix with the design
requirement that any given workstation in the
four-building facility could be made a render node when
the engineer was not at desk (so at night)
Lots of crazy experiences from that --
1. being asked why I couldnt provide power over fiber
2. Being asked if I could design a facility in Singapore
because paying "us Prima donnas" was too expensive when
they could pay asian animators far less for the same work
3. Having see them in-bed with Force 10 networks
4. Seeing all their equipment stolen from the parking
garage after delivery but before installation into the
data-center by some construction guy
5. Them turning down my initial datacenter design which
made it look like the inside of the death star. Telling
me they hated it.
6. Watching the power struggle as the then CFO took
control of the empire as Lucas stepped away.
7. Watching the distaste of all the employees as Lucas
sold for four billion dollars to disney, but his
accomplished and skilled staff got basically nothing
because they didnt own stock in the company they built
for lucas.
Yeah - fuck george lucas.
hedora wrote 3 days ago:
First oneâs free.
Edit: in hindsight it was a terrible marketing strategy. It
meant that 100% of new customers had budget left over to spend
on risky whitebox machines.
I have fond memories of an AMD Linux cluster that ran circles
around a Sun workstation. The workstation cost 10x more than
the entire cluster.
Elof wrote 3 days ago:
Really stoked for this. Good luck
JustSomeNobody wrote 4 days ago:
Good luck! I really hope this works out. So excited.
IQunder130 wrote 4 days ago:
I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't
a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the
price is something I've been wanting for a long time.
jameshart wrote 3 days ago:
This does not look like a pathway to reduce the cost of your
laptop by throwing out junk you donât need. This looks like
every part will be more expensive due to the focus on sustainable
materials, e-waste and modularization. If youâre price-focused,
are you really willing to pay a premium for ethical sourcing and
repairability on the subset of components you want to populate
your laptop with?
Jeff_Brown wrote 3 days ago:
The upgradeability could mean you save money in the long term
even if each piece is substantially more expensive than its
dispoable counterpart.
Of course, asking people to trust that long-term calculus for a
new product from a new company is nontrivial.
bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
Hmm, not that it's "something you don't need", per se, but
> 4TB or more of Gen4 NVMe storage
Suggests to me that this will be targeted at the "money is no
object" market. (And it might still be something you don't need,
I keep all my media on a server, so 1TB would be more than
sufficient, thank you very much.)
throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first
issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem.
EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop
because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end
trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never
mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).
pwthornton wrote 3 days ago:
I honestly don't know how people use PC laptops without an
external mouse. It's incredible that the trackpads are still so
bad. Can you spend a ton of money on a PC laptop and get a
decent one? I have assumed it has been an issue with just using
cheap parts, and it being hard to get people to pay for premium
parts on PC laptops.
aksss wrote 3 days ago:
They arenât that bad, letâs be real. Try the latest XPS
13, the trackpad is more than fine. Maybe not Apple great,
but itâs perfectly fine. I could point to earlier
makes/models that were fine too. Itâs not going to make or
break your decision on PC/Mac if you have Apple money to
spend on a PC.
neverminder wrote 3 days ago:
My Dell Precision 7750 touchpad works flawlessly and I'm
running Ubuntu. The touchpad is optimal size, similar to that
of Apple's I think. It also has 3 physical buttons, middle
click is my favorite which by default is configured to open a
link in a new tab. Multipoint touch and gestures work fine as
well, at least those that I use - two finger touch for right
click menu and two finger gesture for scrolling. Because it's a
rather new touchpad by Dell, Initially the physical right
button didn't work, which was a bit annoying, but eventually
the problem was solved with kernel update.
getcrunk wrote 3 days ago:
Have you used an xps? I really like my trackpad. Haven't use
apple's
cam-perry wrote 3 days ago:
I have both laptops and both touchpads are really nice.
Though Apple's is nicer for being bigger and I prefer their
materials to the XPS.
If you run linux on the XPS this project ( [1] ) is great for
configuring multi-touch gestures that work like the Mac.
URI [1]: https://github.com/iberianpig/fusuma
taneq wrote 3 days ago:
I've used both (albeit the Mac was a 2010 Macbook Pro so they
may have changed - the Dell is a 2019 XPS13 and is my current
travel laptop) and I'd rate them roughly on par. The Macbook
had slightly better accidental touch rejection iirc (eg. if
you brush the touchpad while reaching for the keys to type)
and slightly nicer build quality. The XPS is really nice
though.
syspec wrote 3 days ago:
Have you used an Apple? Really like my trackpad.
Haven't used XPS
RileyJames wrote 3 days ago:
Definitely felt the same way moving from MacBook Air to XPS
(under linux), but eventually I found the right settings to
completely remove accidental touches on the pad while typing
and since then, pretty good, not bad, canât complain. Cause
actually, all them track pads are about the same.
sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
I'll be honest, I've used a laptop as a primary computing
device my whole life - and I have no idea what a "sane
touchpad" would even be. They really are so frequently bad that
I can't imagine what a good one would be like. I mostly use PCs
(often with Linux), but used a mac for work for while - and I
can't really say I saw the appeal in that touchpad either.
Besides issues that come from low-quality pads + linux drivers
(ghost mouse movements as I type, stupid imprecision from weird
acceleration setting) - I don't like the way that most touch
pads feel cold and metallic, and how they always attract dust
you can feel as you use.
My solution has always been to just keep a wireless mouse with
rechargable AA's in my backpack. If I'm using my laptop on a
couch at home, I have a wooden lap desk with ample mouse space
to accommodate it.
Additionally, the thinkpad I have now has both an eraser mouse
and touch screen + stylus (as well as a trackpad), so if I do
have to leave my mouse at home, I at least have options. I like
the eraser mouse because I don't have to move my fingers away
from the keyboard - and even if it feels it takes slightly
longer to move - it's more pleasant tactile experience for me.
solraph wrote 3 days ago:
I'm with you on this one. I just find them incredibly
difficult to use long term, despite multiple years across the
various Macs and PC laptops I've used.
I strongly suspect most of the complaints about PC trackpads
are a bit like Windows/Linux/Mac users complaining about the
current font rendering on any of the others. I can't help
wondering how much is just personal preference + a bit of
echo chamber.
withmorten wrote 3 days ago:
Well actually, Win10 font rendering is broken, i.e. 1 and l
look completely the same on Courier New on Win10, but not
on Win7 ... there are years old bug reports (it broke in
some feature update), but of course those have been
ignored.
nkrisc wrote 3 days ago:
For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a
MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what
Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware,
software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never
buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad
as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a
personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be
the best.
d0100 wrote 2 days ago:
Try looking for a laptop that doesn't have the terrible
chiclet-style keys, it's impossible. Mac included
pwdisswordfish0 wrote 3 days ago:
The hardware + software configuration for the majority of
touchpads I've used on Chromebooks are on par or better than
MacBook touchpads. It's just that people pretend they don't
exist, whether in consumer complaints comparing MacBooks to
everything else, or by the people responsible for
freedesktop-based software who themselves continue purchasing
terrible hardware and keep the software (drivers, userspace
apps, etc) in the same sad state that it's always been in
instead of copying what's happening with Chromebooks.
Look at Firefox for an example of the latter. I'm typing
this on a Chromebook intended to run ChromeOS, but it's
actually running Ubuntu. The touchpad experience from the
factory is as good as it should be. When you wipe the
machine and install Ubuntu and use Chrome, it's still pretty
good. Running Firefox on the same system gives you its same
janky scroll behavior that you get anywhere else that isn't a
MacBook, for no good reason.
People act like there's some yet-to-be-understood law of
nature that make MacBook touchpads good and everything else
bad. This is demonstrably false. We have existence proofs
to the contrary.
mnsc wrote 3 days ago:
Am I really that unique in never having used the trackpad on
a laptop at all, other than a last resort being forced to use
some weird non-Lenovo thing without a nipple?
Always an external mouse in the backpack and the nipple as a
fallback.
dmt0 wrote 2 days ago:
It's just that you've never had a laptop with a usable
trackpad. I also carried a mouse when I had a Thinkpad.
KptMarchewa wrote 23 hours 1 min ago:
I had macbook for two years and used external mouse way
more than with my new thinkpad.
That thing on a macbook is so absurdly large that it's
impossible to type without cursor doing some action.
brailsafe wrote 3 days ago:
There are so many people responding with incredulity to the
fact that pc laptop makers haven't come up with a good
Trackpad, but to me the reason is evident in the first
interaction you have with any pc laptop manufacturer. Show me
a pc laptop website that isn't an absolute horrific fucking
mess, then find me a product on that website that doesn't
look like a stupid broken plastic box thing, and then maybe
we can start talking about trackpads. These companies
seemingly want people to buy arbitrary products off the
shelf and NEVER return. I'll grant that there may be a few
notable exceptions, probably Razer is one, but the rest are
abominations.
KozmoNau7 wrote 3 days ago:
The best trackpad I've used was on the Tegra K1-based Acer
Chromebook 13. It had a good size for multi-touch gestures
and was just really well integrated. Combined with a nice
low-friction surface and a positive click, I still haven't
found its equal.
In fact, that line of chromebooks had the best overall
package. Slim, but very sturdy plastic body, a surprisingly
good keyboard, ~10 hour battery life. The 13" FHD screen was
OK, but not amazing, I would have liked an IPS panel instead
of TN.
The major downside is that it was a 32-bit ARM-based
chromebook and everyone was going 64-bit x86 instead. So it
got slower and slower with each successive update, eventually
it couldn't even play 1080p Youtube videos anymore, or even
720p60. Such a shame.
TheRealSteel wrote 3 days ago:
"I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both"
The gulf continues to be so big that after so much time of
nobody else even appearing to try to compete, I assume it's
patents.
enw wrote 3 days ago:
I'm guessing a big reason why it has never been prioritized
is due to the difficulty of quantifying the impact of great
trackpad UX (and as a result, the negative impact of the
shitty trackpad UX every non-Apple device offers). Higher-ups
don't like things that aren't easily quantified.
pwdisswordfish0 wrote 3 days ago:
Fan noise is the same. I bought a machine from a Linux
laptop vendor. At the time of purchase, I raised my
concerns about the risk of ultimately ending up
disappointed when it arrived (particularly how pricey it
was). They insisted that I would be happy, and that it
would be much better than my 5 year old laptop that I was
replacing.
Not only was that not the case, it was worse than my own
pessimism that I started with.
The fan noise and the trackpad were so bad to the point
that it felt like a joke, even though I knew it wasn't.
People are just oblivious to this stuff and march onward
none the wiser, even the people who should be doing things
like comparative analysis on quality against their
competitors' products.
runamok wrote 1 day ago:
I bought a Vostro 5301 (13" with 11th gen intel cpu) and
the fan ran All. The. Time.
I returned it after doing all the windows and driver
updates, choosing "quiet mode" in the Dell Power
Management software. The fan would kick on while cpu
strolled along at 10 or 15%. Replaced it with an xps 13
which has been fine. (I have had several xps so decided
to chance it).
jack_riminton wrote 3 days ago:
Itâs an interesting point. There must be some metrics
i.e. latency, accuracy that a trackpad can be measured by
Perhaps it needs to be a score via a user test e.g click
these small randomly appearing boxes in the shortest time
possible
numpad0 wrote 3 days ago:
I remember Wacom bragging about corporate secret
quantitative measurement methodologies in Surface 3-4
era, but what completely solved pen computing stagnation
was Microsoft dropping them completely and Apple Pencil
casually stepping in, so,
Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
Don't understand the downvotes. I believe that it's exactly
this. It's an industry where you can point to a
competitor's machine and compare gigahertz and megapixels
and terabytes and gigaflops and build press releases on
those numbers, where an industry leader tries to make a
point with "It doesn't run Rocket League!", where
manufacturers like Dell can put a nice touchpad in one
machine and then build twelve awful ones a year later
because they have so many models on so many markets that no
one is even able to say with confidence why certain models
have been more popular than others.
Design and UX-wise, the current laptop market is a shitshow
and Apple seems to be the only company that consistently
cares about the little things. Sure, they've messed up in
the past (butterfly keyboards), but there is still a sense
of progress.
Something1234 wrote 3 days ago:
I really don't get what is so special about all of these
trackpad debates. Honestly if my trackpad can do a 2 finger
scroll I'm happy. Worst trackpad I've used was on my x201,
and was only terrible because it was tiny and insensitive.
nkrisc wrote 1 day ago:
I'm a designer, and even on my work issued Macbook I had no
issue using design programs like Sketch or Figma with the
trackpad. It was really effortless and sometimes even after
I got back to my desk where I had a mouse I'd still be
using the trackpad for an hour after without even really
realizing, it's that good.
It even feels amazing, physically. It's smooth and your
finger just glides right over it and still registers the
touch with barely any pressure. The combination of the
hardware, the size, and the software (drivers, OS, whatever
else) is just the best I've ever used. Best of all, it's
like that right out of the box.
For laptops, at least, I'm solidly Apple for the trackpad
alone, I like it that much.
dmt0 wrote 2 days ago:
It's very simple. Use an MBP for a few months, then switch
back to another laptop and just see how long you last. I
never used a trackpad at all until I got an MBP - always a
mouse. Can't go back to that now. The one on MBP feels like
a finely tuned instrument that does exactly what you mean
it to do.
Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
Would you consider using one of the trackpads you're happy
with INSTEAD of a mouse? For non-precision work, that is.
Browsing, navigating an IDE, clicking around the OS, stuff
like that. In an emergency anything that does a two finger
scroll and registers a click is okay, but would you enjoy
using it for eight hours every day? Apple will confidently
sell you a $5000 desktop machine with just their trackpad,
because it is that good.
ForHackernews wrote 3 days ago:
> Apple will confidently sell you a $5000 desktop machine
with just their trackpad, because it is that good.
I mean... Apple will also "confidently" sell you four
little castor wheels for 700 quid[0]. I'm not sure we
should view their eagerness to take money off you as a
sign of how great they are.
[0]
URI [1]: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/...
jonnycomputer wrote 3 days ago:
It is true. Or at least, in my experience, I have no data to
contradict this.
mekster wrote 3 days ago:
It's funny that PC and Android can never reach the smoothness
of Apple's touch pad and screen scroll when it's really the
basic thing of computer usage where it matters.
Apple did it right 15 years ago and why do others still suck
at it?
rStar wrote 3 days ago:
they donât care. iâd love for someone to defend the
idea that for all these years, microsoft has really wanted
us to have first class touchpad experiences on their
laptops, but they just couldnât figure it out. A problem
too hard, a bridge too far, an unattainable moonshot for
however many hundreds of thousands of software engineers
microsoft has employed over the years. so, once again, the
reason itâs only that good on mac is because no one cares
in the windows world, from microsoft to their developers
and ultimately their customers who donât value that
feature. edit: i spend most of my life in linux but I have
a mbp for photoshop and capture one. on many topics I hate
my mac with a cold fury but credit where itâs due.
vagrantJin wrote 3 days ago:
> I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that
has a trackpad as good or better
Funny that
Commenting on a thread about a non-apple laptop that you'll
never buy a Non apple laptop.
That is true and unadultered fanboyism.
rkangel wrote 3 days ago:
This is the best place to talk about that. There may be
multiple suppliers of trackpads for the Framework and so
they GP might finally have some choice.
Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
Where's the fanboyism in that?
They were commenting on a post about how most PC touchpads
suck and that for some people a great touchpad is a
requirement, the absence of which would prevent them from
buying other laptops, such as the Framework Laptop.
vagrantJin wrote 3 days ago:
> for some people a great touchpad is a requirement,
The touchpad. Nothing else. Just the touchpad?
I'm not given to hyperbole but methinks there's a lot of
info and technical requirements that go into purchasing
an expensive item such as a laptop. Screen size and
quality, keyboard quality, ports, batter life, weight,
performance, looks - oh you know...normal stuff.
At least for us normal people. Maybe my mistake was
there.
jaegerpicker wrote 3 days ago:
Where did he say that was the ONLY requirement? It's
possibly the most important for him but unlikely to be
the only requirement.
Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
A requirement, not THE [single] requirement. English
isn't my first language but I believe that what I wrote
is clear enough and you're playing dumb for some
reason.
zitterbewegung wrote 3 days ago:
I think that since they manufacture so many other touch
devices that the software, data and or expertise in designing
those devices transfers over into touchpads.
philistine wrote 3 days ago:
Apple had the best trackpads in the industry before they
made the iPhone. That company just values good laptop
design; after all, they invented it.
ngc248 wrote 3 days ago:
They invented what? laptops?
philistine wrote 3 days ago:
Yup. The Powerbook 100 series is the first laptop with
the classic clamshell design we all know.
bitwize wrote 3 days ago:
They invented good laptop design. Up until 2011, most
laptops were shitty clones of the PowerBook Duo in
terms of design. After 2011, most laptops became shitty
clones of the MacBook Air.
tomp wrote 3 days ago:
Funny you say that. I'm a long-time MacBook Pro user, that
migrated to Microsoft (!) Surface Go (!!) running Windows 10
(!!!) recently. Not only is the OS tolerable (after I figured
how to prevent crashes ... I mean, automatic updates) and the
device more convenient than any I've used before (a real
computer in the iPad form factor), the trackpad is amazing as
well, I truly don't notice any difference with MacBook Pro
trackpad!
LeifCarrotson wrote 3 days ago:
I care a lot too - but I care about a lot of other features,
too, and refuse to buy Apple.
My conclusion was to disable the trackpad and always carry an
external mouse. I do a lot of CAD work and there's nothing
that compares to a real mouse for speed and precision.
I'll use my Trackpoint nib in a pinch, but the trackpad
ecosystem is so bad that I just write it off entirely. Yeah,
keeping a mouse on hand is annoying, but it's like a physical
keyboard: Would you ever buy a laptop where you had to input
reams of text with a touchscreen keyboard? No, that's absurd,
keyboards are a necessary part of a computer. Would you ever
buy a trackpad for a desktop PC? I wouldn't, I'd use a mouse.
nkrisc wrote 2 days ago:
That's fair, but on my personal computer when I'm lounging
on the couch, a mouse isn't going to cut it. I'm also
talking specifically about laptops. Apple laptops have the
best trackpad experience I've ever used. So my personal
laptops will always be Apple until I find something better.
bitwize wrote 3 days ago:
Apple users buy Apple trackpads for their desktop. The
Apple trackpad experience is better than a typical mouse,
even when it comes to speed and precision.
That's what happens when you're the most successful
technology company in the world, and you hire the best
engineers in the world and laser-focus them on thr user
experience.
sings wrote 3 days ago:
Not to dismiss your comment - my partner is an architect
and also swears by the mouse to navigate in 3D - but I got
an external trackpad when getting an external keyboard (to
replace my poorly performing MacBook keyboard) and I have
preferred the trackpad to a mouse for sometime. This is
from someone who spends a lot of time in design software. I
donât think this is uncommon, either, although Iâm not
sure.
mumblemumble wrote 3 days ago:
I think it's got to be a little bit of both. My experience
has been that the trackpad experience with Win10 on a MacBook
is poor, and the trackpad experience on a hackintosh is also
poor.
I realize a sibling poster had a different hackintosh
experience. I think that maybe supports my suspicion. Good
hardware and good software are both necessary, but not
sufficient, conditions of a good overall experience.
gburdell3 wrote 3 days ago:
It has to be software. I have a ThinkPad that I recently
installed macOS on (not advocating hackintosh, but it's a fun
project nonetheless) and the trackpad feels every bit as good
as a real Mac. Smooth scrolling, smooth gesture recognition,
everything just feels good. The hardware is capable of
processing the gestures, but the non-Apple software just does
a terrible job of making it feel good to use.
dakial1 wrote 3 days ago:
It it software. As they did to ios, the MacOs has highest
priority to all interface actions.That's why the scrolling
on ios and MacOs is usually very smooth. The interface get
the highest priority so if the computer is struggling with
lots of simulaneous processes, the interface still will
feel smooth. Very smart solution to prioritize UX. Why they
didn't do the same on windows/android? No idea.
dmt0 wrote 2 days ago:
Also good defaults. In fact they don't even have certain
settings in MacOS. For example you can't change the
pointer acceleration, but the default one is just
perfect.
PragmaticPulp wrote 3 days ago:
I suspect the key software is in the firmware of the
trackpad itself. The hardware does a lot of processing of
the raw signals before it hands the data to the trackpad
driver. The driver does additional processing, of course,
but this also means that alternate trackpad implementations
need more than just the right driver code. The firmware
plays a key role.
naikrovek wrote 3 days ago:
> I suspect the key software is in the firmware of the
trackpad itself.
What your parent comment (the comment you replied to)
said refutes the reply you made.
They installed OSX on a ThinkPad, and observed the
desired OSX-like trackpad behavior. Apple does not write
firmware for thinkpad pointing devices, so it cannot be
firmware-specific behavior.
fpoling wrote 3 days ago:
I have Intel MacBook Pro and the behavior of trackpad
under Windows in BootCamp is just terrible while in a
Windows VM or on a remote Windows desktop it is almost as
good as on Mac. So I doubt it is in firmware.
hamburglar wrote 3 days ago:
Itâs definitely not just software. If you connect an
Apple Magic Trackpad to a Linux machine running X, it works
way, way better than the garbage thatâs built into most
PC laptops.
Also note that Lenovo itself has a huge variation in
trackpad quality. My relatively new thinkpad
(thinkpad-branded but I think the model number was yoga
360) from work has a trackpad that is just barely usable.
My personal yoga c740 has a trackpad that is actually
pretty nice and gets close to MBP quality when it comes to
movement/accuracy (it does still lack gestures and good
right-click support though, and that is likely a software
issue).
I really hope these guys pick good trackpads. I can
grudgingly live with a stunted feature set (gestures etc)
for now because I know X makes it difficult or impossible
to get right, but I absolutely cannot abide a trackpad that
feels shitty and inaccurate just for moving the mouse
around.
garmaine wrote 3 days ago:
This is true, although it is probably because of the
software being built into the trackpad itself.
anuragsoni wrote 3 days ago:
> That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I
always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best.
100%. On my personal devices I don't want to compromise on
trackpad or keyboards (I like that apple went back on the
butterfly keyboards).
The rest of my comment is just my personal experience so take
it with a grain of salt. I've found the trackpad experience
on the XPS and Thinkpad X1 laptops to be excellent under
linux. The libinput [1] drivers seem to work really well and
the gesture support seems nice too. What I miss from
MacBook's touchpad is force-touch. Not having to worry about
which part of the touchpad i'm pressing was really nice when
I used a macbook.
I'm contemplating purchasing a m1 macbook air as my next
laptop, but I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on
being able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my
own money.
URI [1]: https://github.com/wayland-project/libinput
TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
> I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on being able
to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my own money.
May I suggest sponsoring Hector Martin on GitHub[0]? Heâs
working on building first-class support for the M1
architecture (including drivers) into Linux.
[0]
URI [1]: https://github.com/marcan
rfoo wrote 3 days ago:
Caveat: may not include an awesome trackpad driver.
coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
If it includes a GPU driver, then the trackpad driver
is trivial compared to that.
Actually manufacturing the trackpad hardware might be
difficult/expensive, but since that's already a given,
the driver can be tweaked in tons of ways to fit the
regular macOS experience...
ankka wrote 3 days ago:
Doing output is trivial compared to properly handling
any type of free-form user input.
coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
A GPU driver for a new undocumentated architecture
is "trivial" compared to properly doing an input
driver for a touchpad?
You make "properly handling any type of free-form
user input" sound like rocket science, when it's
the regular multi-touch kind of driver we have on
billions of mobiles, and laptops...
The "properly" here is just the sauce for macOS
handling, not some inherent difficulty of "handling
any type of free-form user input" on a 2D
surface...
auggierose wrote 3 days ago:
It's because there is no great trackpad support
outside the Mac. But there is good GPU support.
So it seems, getting great trackpad support IS
rocket science currently, for whatever reason. (I
also wonder, what is going on there? I guess
people on the other platforms just don't care
about this detail, otherwise they would be on the
Mac anyway).
aksss wrote 3 days ago:
There are a lot of crappy trackpads on crappy
PC laptops, but the ones on the high-end
laptops are quite serviceable even if not the
ideal version that Apple created. With a
serviceable trackpad, the other benefits of
having a PC over a Mac tend to far outweigh the
trackpad (for people that value what a PC
brings).
auggierose wrote 2 days ago:
Yes, I understand that, I am just not getting
my head around why for example Windows is so
bad with a trackpad either. I mean, how tough
would it be for Microsoft to nail this if
they cared?
aksss wrote 2 days ago:
They probably don't see it as their job.
The fact that trackpad quality varies
between makes/models implies that it's both
a hardware and a software problem, the
latter probably being drivers. Maybe there
is something in the OS that hampers it
though, I don't know. Would be interesting
to hear from engineers at the OEMs.
Frankly, when I read these comments about
the problems of PC trackpads, it's like a
foreign language to me. Problems with
gestures, multi-touch or palm strikes.. I
can't recall the last time I had a PC
laptop with those problems. My XPS 2-in-1
9310 sits in a bag across the room and am
typing on a four-five year old Lenovo right
now, neither of which have any such
problems. What I notice on the wife's MBP
trackpad is the feel (glass) and the (good)
lack of physical movement in trackpad -
this lenovo is clearly a momentary switch
and at the very upper end of the pad the
force to needed to click is tougher, but it
hardly matters. A tap accomplishes the same
thing that a physical click does and is
probably how I engage it most often. I'm
just not sure it's as big a problem with
decently-built PC laptops as people make it
out to be. PC hardware has a lot more going
for it that overshadows the delta between a
99% trackpad and a 94% trackpad. Things
like a touchscreen, active digitizers,
tablet modes, escape keys, function keys,
facial recognition, variety.
auggierose wrote 1 day ago:
I will never need a touchscreen in my
laptop. That's what my iPad is for, which
I can connect to my laptop, by the way.
Function keys I've last used in the
previous millennium, and I've got an
escape key, thank you very much. My
laptop automatically unlocks via my
watch. But yes, I expect facial
recognition to come to the Mac very soon,
too.
And I've never used a PC trackpad with
satisfaction rate of > 30% ;-) They are
all shite.
I guess it is just a matter of
preference. As I said, if you care about
the trackpad, you will never touch a PC
laptop. If you don't, you think you have
a 94% trackpad, and that it doesn't
matter.
aksss wrote 1 day ago:
>I will never need a touchscreen in my
laptop
We'll see how that ages, but rock on
with your mac.
auggierose wrote 1 day ago:
It's been that way for over a decade.
It aged pretty well.
URI [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watc...
tibbetts wrote 3 days ago:
I imagine getting the trackpad right is either
a giant pile of heuristic rules, or a nice
tagged data set for ML, or both, maybe with a
side of online learning from usage. A trackpad
that automatically does the right thing for me
coding, my 12 year old gaming, and my 8 year
old with sloppy fine motor control does seem
like rocket science to me.
TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
Appleâs trackpad driver is massive, I think. Do not
underestimate the amount of detailed work that went
into it.
rfoo wrote 3 days ago:
True, but then why don't we have awesome Linux
trackpad drivers for Intel Macbooks?
Siira wrote 2 days ago:
We donât even have them for Bootcamp.
coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
Isn't there a 1-2 year old project that claims to
have made great trackpad driver behavior in Linux?
I think this is the case I remember:
URI [1]: https://bill.harding.blog/2020/04/26/linux...
anuragsoni wrote 3 days ago:
I didn't mention this in my comment, but i use wayland on
linux and i've found the touchpad experience to be nicer
there compared to X11, even though both X11 and wayland
sessions for Gnome use libinput. I don't know much about
libinput to know why I feel a difference in my touchpad
experience between X11 and wayland.
mottosso wrote 3 days ago:
I felt that way until I got my hands on a Surface Book. They
did a good job on that one, still holding up after 4+ years of
constant use.
thw0rted wrote 6 hours 8 min ago:
Seconded. I couldn't stand using a touchpad at all until I
got a Surface Book 2 for work. It's now the standard to
which I hold all other touchpads.
Groxx wrote 3 days ago:
Yeah, the surface line seems to have quite-acceptable
trackpads. I have an SP4, and the keyboard-cover's is... a
bit strange to the touch (highly textured), but works
reliably.
Unlike so many other brands. The vast majority I've used
have been an endless stream of frustration and flakiness.
ImaCake wrote 3 days ago:
I have an SP4 as well and enjoyed the touchpad on it. I
don't think it is as good as the macbook one, but the
surface makes up for this with the touch screen. I would
often mix it up between screen and touchpad touches to
navigate and I miss it now I am using a macbook.
Groxx wrote 3 days ago:
Yea, I'm not actually all that fond of the SP4, but it
has utterly convinced me that touchpad + touchscreen is
massively superior to either one alone. It's so natural
feeling.
fortran77 wrote 3 days ago:
I'm using a Surface Book 2 right now, and it's -- by far --
the best laptop I've ever owned.
zerocrates wrote 3 days ago:
I feel like the XPS 13 trackpad is fine, what's your beef with
it?
arsome wrote 3 days ago:
Yeah, I'm not sure about any of this, I grew up with PC
trackpads, used them on Linux all the time and other than a
few annoyances with accidentally tripping the trackpad when
typing, never had a problem with them. The Macbook actually
took quite a bit of time to get used to and many settings had
to be adjusted (looking at you backwards scrolling).
In fact, I think I like the trackpad on my cheap Logitech
K400 just as much as the Macbook, I'd be hard pressed to
point to a significant problem with either.
ryukafalz wrote 3 days ago:
Do you use gestures at all? I have both a MacBook Pro (for
work) and a Logitech K400+. Two-finger scrolling on the MBP
is fine; light pressure on the touchpad is enough to scroll
very smoothly. Two-finger scrolling on my X230 is also
fine, if a bit jumpy - I can at least keep my place while
I'm scrolling, and it still takes only light pressure to
recognize the gesture.
Two-finger scrolling on the K400+ is painful. (Actually
physically painful; I have RSI in my right arm and
poorly-tracking touchpads can be a trigger.) It requires
fairly heavy pressure on the touchpad to trigger gestures
consistently (though they can be triggered inconsistently
with light pressure which is also frustrating). And
especially on macOS, it's difficult to actually scroll a
consistent distance with a two-finger gesture with the
K400+.
I'm fairly certain this has to do with the K400+'s touchpad
not being recognized as a touchpad by the OS. The device is
instead emitting mouse wheel events in firmware when a
two-finger scroll gesture is detected. macOS will then, of
course, apply mouse wheel acceleration, which makes sense
for some mice but absolutely does not make sense for a
touchpad.
bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
XPS trackpads have always been number one, from the very
beginning. I'm working with a 10 year old laptop and its
trackpad has performed flawlessly and is superior to any
MacBook I've ever used (but especially older ones).
My XPS has the advantage of two physical buttons for left and
right click. They require just the right amount of force to
press (like a slightly softer mouse button with deeper
travel). It makes dragging things around (which I do a lot
because I don't use a tiling window manager) very easy. Which
doesn't feel like something I should have to comment on, but
doing this on a MacBook is pure suffering. Trying to hold
down the giant button (which takes quite a bit of force)
while trying to drag your finger... ugh. It's miserable.
Because of the physical buttons I can actually play some
games on my XPS without needing an external mouse (or putting
up with misclicks)
In terms of hardware, what people are looking for is mostly
surface feel, size, features. It's the former where cheap
laptops fall down. Most of the ones I've used really suck,
actually. Some of them are bad enough that the manufacturers
actually texture the surface to try to slow your finger down,
I guess because the accuracy of the touchpad isn't very good.
High end touchpads like the one on the XPS or MacBooks have
flawless feel: extremely low friction surfaces.
It's not commonly noticed, but software contributes at least
as much to how a trackpad feels as hardware. Given the
limitations of its hardware, I have no quarrel with Apple's
software quality. (Though the defaults are weird, like not
being able to tap-to-click. They really want you to have to
use that damn button.)
Windows has historically sucked at this. I've seen about half
a dozen trackpads that seemed absolutely terrible, and no
Windows settings could make them better. After moving them
over to Linux (on the synaptics driver) they suddenly became
quite okay to use, even if the hardware was crappy. I'm
afraid this era might be ending, sadly. I've had nothing but
bad experiences with libinput. It lacks the kind of
configurability you need to improve on the performance of a
bad touchpad. (It's even quite bad under Wayland for the XPS
touchpad - you can't set the combination of low speed, high
acceleration that feels natural to me for this touchpad.)
vladvasiliu wrote 3 days ago:
As you say, the default mac os touchpad settings are
somewhat strange to me.
But the touchpad can be configured for the bottom side of
the touchpad to function as buttons: if you touch it
directly, it won't register as mouse movement. If you press
on the left, it's a left button, right is a right button.
So while not actual physical buttons, it's pretty damn
close. I don't actually use this so not sure houw this
would work out in practice for your needs.
Regarding the dragging situation, there's another setting
that's now been buried in "Accessibility" for some reason,
but that was present in the touchpad settings before: "drag
hold".
This allows you to lift the finger from the touchpad for a
brief period while dragging without stopping the dragging.
This, to me, is the pinnacle of touchpad experience. You
can start dragging wherever you want on the pad and go as
far as you like, you never run out of space.
There's also a similar option that some people like:
three-finger drag. It works like scrolling, except that if
you use three fingers it starts dragging.
zimpenfish wrote 3 days ago:
> Trying to hold down the giant button (which takes quite a
bit of force) while trying to drag your finger... ugh. It's
miserable.
Not wishing to detract from your personal experience but
"quite a bit of force" is at odds to mine - on this M1 MBP,
it takes less force to activate the trackpad click than it
does to activate a keypress. And once you've clicked, you
can use a second figure to drag; no need to try and drag
with the force finger (I use my thumb to click for power*,
then index to drag for accuracy.)
breatheoften wrote 3 days ago:
Another comment regarding the click and drag behavior.
One thing I would definitely expect a recent migrant to
apple trackpads to experience as negative would be "force
click". The apple trackpads sense force in some analogue
way and if you push hard enough you can activate another
action called force click. It's ridiculously easy to
activate on accident when holding click while dragging --
but this "feature" can be turned off (and probably should
be for most people I'd wager).
I've never tried using the middle finger for dragging --
seems awkward but i'll give it a try ... won't that
activate the two finger drag operation?
zimpenfish wrote 3 days ago:
> won't that activate the two finger drag operation?
No, because you've clicked which makes it a different
operation than just two fingers scrolling or zooming.
bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
Yes, your point is entirely fair. I should have clarified
that I was talking about an older (mid decade) MacBook
Pro. It requires enough force that, with my arm just
positioned normally, I can actually feel the torque
applied down the whole of my forearm.
My understanding is that Apple has made the clicks much
lighter in their later models - along with doing the
exact same thing with the keyboard keys, which for me
goes much to far in the other direction.
easton wrote 3 days ago:
On 2015 or later MacBooks, you can adjust the force
required for a click: [1] (âAdjust trackpad
settingsâ)
URI [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204352
bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
This is software adjustable? That's very impressive
engineering. Unfortunately this a 2014 MBP.
vladvasiliu wrote 3 days ago:
AFAIK the button doesn't actually move, it's like
the home button on some older iPhones (like the 7).
It detects the pressure and has a haptic feedback
to make it feel like a button. If you look at a
powered off iphone 7, the button is just an indent
on the otherwise fixed glass panel.
lloeki wrote 3 days ago:
Exactly. The most impressive part is that it
really feels like a click, down to the illusion
it's moving down (but it's not, at all). When
powering off (or there's a crash), the feeling of
it being immovable is surreal. Plus the surface
is suddenly responding evenly (the clicking ones
had a hinged design, so it became increasingly
hard to click upwards the surface)
One can leverage the haptic feedback to make the
TouchBar a bit more lively[0]. The illusion
breaks a bit since the haptic device is farther
away from the touch surface but it's still quite
a transformative experience for the TB.
[0]:
URI [1]: https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
charrondev wrote 3 days ago:
The latest iterations as I understand are like this:
- keyboards were reverted similar to how they were
around 2015.
- all the new trackpads are donât require a physical
actuation to activate. You can apply the same amount of
minimal pressure anywhere on the trackpad and it
âpresses backâ at you to simulate a physical click.
Itâs quite convincing.
fomine3 wrote 3 days ago:
Force touch is useful feature last missing on other
PCs.
kibwen wrote 3 days ago:
In terms of hardware, IMO my XPS 15's trackpad is superior to
my MacBook Pro's trackpad. The gesture support from the OS
obviously isn't as good, but the XPS sure does feel better to
use.
indymike wrote 3 days ago:
Honestly, my xps is the only laptop that comes close to my
macbooks... Yo be fair, the touch screen and pen on the XPS
blow away the ones on the Macbook.
the_hoser wrote 3 days ago:
The sad part is that it's not just a hardware problem. While
most PC laptops have really terrible trackpad hardware, some do
have pretty decent hardware. It's just that the software is
still absolutely terrible. You can run Linux on a relatively
modern Macbook, and the trackpad becomes terrible.
Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
Looks like thereâs some good progress for touchpad support on
Linux: [1] [2] Many millions of people will benefit, but the
project only has 129 supporters, if anyone wants to chip in!
URI [1]: https://bill.harding.blog/2021/02/11/linux-touchpad-li...
URI [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102894
mnahkies wrote 3 days ago:
Use the keyboard predominantly instead of the trackpad and
problem mitigated ;)
I've been using Linux exclusively on ~5 different laptops of
varying quality the last few years and I haven't been able to
relate to the frequent comments about trackpad support being
poor - not sure if it's just I don't use it that much, or don't
realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook.
My biggest gripe applies to all laptops and that's the
insufficient ram offered on most models - IMO 16gb should be
the baseline, and 32gb approaching normal with the demands of
current software (yes software could be more efficient but this
isn't the reality we find ourselves in)
frant-hartm wrote 3 days ago:
>don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern
macbook
That's what I thought as well, but every time I try to use my
colleagues Mac it's a struggle, movement speed is really
weird as it's not linear, tapping doesn't behave as one would
expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with
that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I
don't want to.
True, I have used it maybe for 10 mins in total in.my life,
so that's probably the main issue (I hope for the sake of the
people who actually use it).
On the other hand I have seen long time users and it makes me
cringe. What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for
random text selection only.
taneq wrote 3 days ago:
Doesn't every computer have an acceleration setting for
mouse speed, on touchpad and physical mouse?
Conflating novice users with mac users seems a bit
unreasonable, especially given how many people have used
both at various times.
wtallis wrote 3 days ago:
> movement speed is really weird as it's not linear,
It really shouldn't be linear. That would force you to make
unnecessary tradeoffs between precision and the ability to
get the cursor from one side of the screen to the other in
just one or two swipes.
> tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a
problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole
thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to.
Tap to click is an option that can be toggled on and off,
on every trackpad I've ever used. Additionally, Apple
trackpads since 2015 let you adjust in software the amount
of force required for a press on the trackpad to register
as a click.
> What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random
text selection only.
I can just as easily turn this around: configure and learn
a few multi-touch gestures and you won't have to keep
moving your hand off the trackpad to perform keyboard
shortcuts.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
Iâve never understood why peopleâ° care so much about
trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are
better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is
graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice,
graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. [1] and [2] ) are
better. The only thing trackpads seem good at is browsing¹,
which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where
Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style keybindings³
are best.
Edits to respond:
My point is that most tasks are either â best done in a good
text editing / development environment that works well with a
specialized text input device â a keyboard â or â¡ would
be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad
input device (eg. a gaming mouse, graphics tablet, etc.)
â°especially here on HN
¹including scrolling through PDFs and other documents ²or
Zathura or less ³and/or/including PageUp/Down, Home, and End
on luxurious large keyboards. Space and Shift+Space are okay on
smaller ones.
URI [1]: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresol...
URI [2]: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresol...
oh-4-fucks-sake wrote 3 days ago:
Agree that efficient development (regardless of IDE/editor)
is done best using primarily keyboard.
Also agree that detached keyboards and mice will almost
always be superior to their on-board counterparts.
But, I think we're being a wee bit cognitively dissonant if
we tell ourselves notebook keyboards and trackpads don't
receive a non-trivial amount of use--even from the best of
us.
Even more, why are keyboard and external-mouse purists even
bothered with even owning a laptop if they rarely/ever intend
to use the most major distinguishing features that separate
them from desktops in the first place?
But even if you don't agree with any of that, why shouldn't
we still demand a damn-good version of a highly ubiquitous
tool, even if we don't personally use it that often?
(Especially since Apple has proven that it's possible.) On HN
(and the rest of the dev community) are perhaps the most
demanding critics of anything technology. "Server starts up
8% slower!--dogshit!" "New release consumes 5% more
memory--are you kidding me!" "Battery lasts 25m shorter--I'm
in tears!" "The new theme is highly disruptive to my
workflow--OH THE HUMANITY."
I'm not being critical of our being sticklers. We should be!
That's our job! Our fellow devs care about quality; our users
care about quality. We should care about what our users care
about. We have the voices and power to advocate for good
products for all that use technology. The trackpad will be a
major way people interact with computers for a long time to
come and I'm not prepared to hand-wave away the mediocre.
PhasmaFelis wrote 3 days ago:
> Iâve never understood why peopleâ° care so much about
trackpads.
Because it's nice to be able to use my laptop without having
to find a tabletop and dig out my mouse. In bed, on the
couch, on a bus, as a passenger in a car.
Smartphones have taken over a lot of those situations, but a
small laptop is still much better for a lot of tasks. I don't
use Macs anymore, but their touchpads are actually as precise
as a good mouse, and it just feels really nice.
Same thing with knobs and graphics tablets, though it's not a
use case I have personally. A dedicated peripheral is
probably more powerful and precise, but sometimes it's nice
to use your laptop from your lap.
GuB-42 wrote 3 days ago:
A friend of mine is a professional photographer, he is using
his trackpad to process and edit his pictures. Hundreds of
them per session. And it's not like he can't afford a mouse
or even specialized hardware.
And having tried Apple touchpads, they are actually good, so
much that they released a standalone version for desktop
computers. On every PC I have tried, at best, they provide
you with a pointing device in case using a mouse is
impractical. I don't intend to buy a Mac for several reason
but I have to admit that their trackpads are not in the same
league.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
> Iâve never understood why peopleâ° care so much about
trackpads. ... would be better done with a specialized
non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device
So you want a specialized input devices for every task on a
mobile device. That's an interesting choice. And I guess you
also want to carry all these specialized devices around with
you?
> browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text
task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style
keybindings³ are best
Ok. Say you see a headline on HN that looks interesting, and
you go to click on it. Wait, no, you...uhh...tab tab tab tab
tab over to it and press enter to go to the comments page
(like we all do) and start reading the comments. And, oh
look, you want to respond to one of them. So you...uhh...tab
tab...uhh...tab...tab tab tab tab tab tab tab...tab tab? Or
you could just point and click.
Your proposed critical tasks of shifting the viewport and
appending text to the current cursor location meet
approximately 0% of computing user needs. The vast majority
of all computer interaction is putting the cursor in the
right place in the first place. The keyboard is terrible for
that, external devices encumber portability, vertical touch
screens require significant muscle control and effort, and
trackpoints drift and do fewer things while being worse at
all of them.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
> uhh...tab tab tab tab tab
Please take a minute to type the name of any of the
browsers I named into your favourite search engine or
package manager and return when you know what weâre
talking about. (This comment was made via Pentadactyl).
> The vast majority of all computer interaction is putting
the cursor in the right place in the first place.
This is why it pains me to use browsers where I canât tap
[count]gi to focus input fields.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
> This comment was made via Pentadactyl
Enlighten us all. What exactly did you press and what
mental decision and awareness process was required to do
it starting from the front page?
> [count]gi
"[count]" sounds like one would need to know how many
like things on the page precede the thing you're trying
to get to. Thanks but no thanks. 150! Oops, 100! Oops,
130!
curtainsforus wrote 3 days ago:
In Tridactyl, you just push f, which allocates each key
on the keyboard to a visible link on the screen. So to
reply to your comment, the keystrokes were
>fu (click 'reply')
>ff (select textbox)
>ESC (deselect textbox)
>fg (click 'reply')
and a lot easier- not to mention, less RSI-inducing-
than mucking around with a mouse, or trackpad, or
trackpoint, trying to aim a little cursor at a little
box multiple times in a row.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
f20 selects this discussion (the 20th link), but I used
f4 to select threads (the 4th link); j,D, and scroll
down by a line, half-screen/page and full-screen/page
respectively; fr4 selects the correct reply (the fourth
link whose text begins with r); gi goes to the first
input field and enters insert mode.
In insert mode I may use the simple mixture of
emacs/readline and CUA bindings â like ^w to wipe the
last word, ^a to go to the beggining of the line and ^e
to go to the end (eg. when inserting a > before a
blockquote, then appending my commentary) â to write
a straightforward comment from beginning to end, or I
may use ^i to pop the field open in my $EDITOR (vis),
where motions like m to mark my place, G to go to the
end, o to open a new line, and M to return to my mark
are useful for comments that might be written
non-linearly, eg. if they have footnotes. I can save
and exit vis (if I use it) with ZZ, and submit the
comment with standard CUA .
If I reference any other material then Pentadactylâs
browsing bindings like go«character» to open a
quickmark, s to search, p or P to paste my X11 primary
selection as a search term or the url of a current or
new tab, b to fast-as-you-type search through tabs, y
to yank the current website, ;y«number and/or title of
link to yank» and d to delete a tab are useful (along
with standard X11 Shift+Insert to paste the primary
selection in insert mode).
Ideally though, I should use Pentadactyl only for
browsing â for scrolling through and reading web
documents â and have a dedicated newsreader that
understands what posts, comments, etc. are and could
make this several times more efficient. Iâm currently
dipping my toes in evil-mode emacs, which should enable
this. Iâve recently spent less time on HN and more on
IRC where I do have a dedicated native client that
makes things orders of magnitude more smooth than
trying to use a web client in my browser.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
Now I can't tell if this thread is meant to be
satire.
> f20 selects this discussion (the 20th link) but I
used f4 to select threads (the 4th link)
So first you have to visually recognize every link in
between the beginning and what you want to choose and
then you have to count them all? I hope you don't
miscount!
> j,D, and scroll down by a line, half-screen/page
and full-screen/page respectively
How many lines, half-pages, or pages is it from the
top to here? Just curious.
> fr4 selects the correct reply (the fourth link
whose text begins with r);
So first you have to decide that "starts with r" is a
good heuristic for getting where you want to go and
then you have to find all of the links that start
with r and count them?
> gi goes to the first input field and enters insert
mode
But if it's not the first input field, then you have
to count them or cycle through them?
> Ideally though, I should have a dedicated
newsreader that understands what posts, comments,
etc. are
So now you want a special bespoke reader for every
website?
Oh yes this all sounds so much easier than just
pointing at the thing you want! Thank you for
clarifying.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
I believe every single statement in your comment is
factually false. The only one I donât feel
objectively certain of is this:
> Just curious.
But I sincerely doubt itâs true based on the tone
of your comment. Iâm willing to walk through each
sentence with you, but as I have already sunk
significant time into trying to help you I politely
request that you first prove my doubt unfounded by
investing five minutes in grabbing luakit,
qutebrowser, or Pentadactyl â or at the very
least a WebExtension attempt at emulating them like
SurfingKeys â with your favorite package
manager/browser and trying it out for yourself.
Edit: However I will walk through the sentences for
the sake of the other people reading this thread in
better faith, to respond to the strongest [weakly]
plausible interpretation of your comment, although
text is a worse medium for learning GUIs than video
which is worse than first hand interactive use.
> So first you have to visually recognize every
link in between the beginning and what you want to
choose and then you have to count them all? I hope
you don't miscount!
No, the browser automatically highlights them in a
style of your choice (I use a gruvbox theme) and
visually numbers them for you. You can also just
begin typing any part of the linkâs title and it
will be selected when youâve typed a subset
unique to it.
> How many lines, half-pages, or pages is it from
the top to here? Just curious.
~3 out of 4 screens on my threads right now. But
note that I scrolled down one piece at a time and
only know this because my bottom status bar happens
to display it (as well as the url, mode, a minus or
plus signifying pages back or forward in the
tabâs history, on a background that signifies the
SSL status of the site).
> So first you have to decide that "starts with r"
is a good heuristic for getting where you want to
go and then you have to find all of the links that
start with r and count them?
No, you donât need to use a heuristic but it
saves reaching your left hand to the number row to
eliminate half a dozen links by typing fr instead
of just typing f10.
> But if it's not the first input field, then you
have to count them or cycle through them?
No, you can use ;i to select fields the same way
you select links, but it hasnât taken me the
months Iâve been using HN to notice all top-level
discussion pages have exactly 2 input fields: one
to add a top-level comment and one for the Algolia
search (gi or 2gi will instantly teleport you to
and insert you cursor in the first or second one
respectively).
> So now you want a special bespoke reader for
every website?
No, I want a native client for each type of
software: a browser for browsing (exploring and
reading) web documents, a news reader for news, an
IRC client for internet real-time chat, a mail
client for mail, a media player for playing media
(I copy links and use a sxhkd binding to open them
in MPV â [1] ), etc.
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24509...
allarm wrote 3 days ago:
Iâm using a different plugin (I think itâs
vimkeys) which is also great. I wanted to give
the pentadactyl a try, but it looks like itâs
discontinued- the latest release was in 2014. Am
I looking in a wrong place?
URI [1]: http://bug.5digits.org/pentadactyl/
walterlb wrote 3 days ago:
I've been trying out Tridactyl, and like it so
far. I believe it's similar to Pentadactyl,
though maybe missing some features.
URI [1]: https://github.com/tridactyl/tridactyl
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
[1] The development¹ has been continued by
the community after Firefox removed support
for XUL extensions.
¹Well, tbh basic maintenance is a more
accurate term â the updates have been minor,
and the patch that enables it in the latest
version of Palemoon hasnât been pushed to the
addon store yet, you have to clone from master
at the moment.
URI [1]: https://github.com/pentadactyl/pentada...
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
> The browser automatically highlights them
What do you do when the browser doesn't highlight
something interactive?
What do you do for, as one person on the web
calls it, "fancy javascript shit"? What if you
want to draw an iceberg to see how it would
float?
allarm wrote 3 days ago:
In these cases you use your mouse or whatever,
obviously. Whatâs your point?
I have been using a similar plugin for years
and on a very rare occasion Iâm using my
touchpad to do something as you described.
SpaceNugget wrote 3 days ago:
You just look at the thing you want to click and press
F then type the letters that appear on the tag.
EDIT: Here's an extremely low quality screencast of me
making this comment
URI [1]: https://imgur.com/qpppveP
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
Thanks. This is a much better reply than the OP's.
Now what do you do for things that don't get tagged?
SpaceNugget wrote 3 days ago:
Pretty much everything clickable gets tagged.
Buttons, text inputs, links, etc. If what you want
to click on has a word in it, you can press '/' and
type the word then hit enter to click it so that
would probably be what I would do if there was ever
a missing tag. That's also how you can highlight
text. This is for vimium at least.
walterlb wrote 3 days ago:
I am actually (non-sarcastically) interested in the
answer. I've always wondered if there was a usable
keyboard only browsing experience out there!
medstrom wrote 3 days ago:
"Usable" partly depends on you.
dopu wrote 3 days ago:
In my day job I'm constantly reading PDFs. Being able to zoom
in/out, scroll, and move the cursor with such low effort can
even bring me a little bit of joy. It's not really about what
is most efficient. Computing should feel good. That's why
it's hard for me to move away from Apple's trackpads.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
> a little bit of joy
is a good description of what I feel reading PDFs
efficiently, near effortlessly (which to me is near the
same thing), and comfortably (also similar in that it
involves minimal reaching, but also includes automatic
semi-smart dark theming, easy good zooming, etc.) with
Zathura.
throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
> Trackpad vs keyboard
¿Por que no los dos? Seriously, I wasn't talking about
replacing my keyboard with a trackpad. They are different
devices with different purposes and are intended to be used
together.
reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
my point is that most tasks are either â best done in a
good text editing / development environment
Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most"
with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular
indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not
impose your choices upon others with different needs.
would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard,
non-trackpad input device
Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to
rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific object
without affecting other objects on a screen. Or configure to
have multiple hotspots that when tapped can trigger events or
macros.
Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other
people love them, and millions of people get real work done
on them each day.
aksss wrote 2 days ago:
I find the mouse better for zooming (scroll wheel) and
rotating (click and drag). Second to that, for less
articulate but quick performance of same task, using the
touch screen to rotate and drag in the same way you would
on a track pad but actually interacting with the imagery
directly. The laptop keyboard and trackpad combo is fine,
but to me theyâre merely a convenience until I can get
back to a ârealâ keyboard and a mouse. Itâs not
uncommon for me to spend hours using the laptopâs HIDs
directly, but I donât think itâs very ergo, and
definitely not as productive as a full desktop setup.
External trackpads donât sell well for a reason - simply
that if you have the desk space for one, almost everyone is
better served by a good quality mouse.
jessaustin wrote 3 days ago:
Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use
to rotate objects on a screen.
The obvious answer to the challenge is a touchscreen.
throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
I actually buy this conclusion for this use case, but in
fairness the debate was "keyboard vs touchpad". So
touchscreen > touchpad > keyboard for rotating objects.
But for other things, having to reach up to the screen
(e.g., scrolling), is worse than touchpad. With a
trackpad, I only have to articulate my wrist while my arm
remains resting on the surface; with a touch screen, I
have to lift my whole arm and articulate my shoulder and
elbow if not also my wrist.
likeclockwork wrote 2 days ago:
I'm not a touch screen fanatic but I think using your
whole arm instead of just torquing your wrist all day
is considered a feature?
Obviously it's not as great if the measure you're
looking at is "how quickly can I go back to typing?".
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
> the debate was "keyboard vs touchpad".
I didnât mean for it to be that exclusively. I tried
to say that keyboards are the best text input device,
but gaming mice and controllers are the best gaming
input device, graphics tablets are the best graphics
input device, and video editing input devices like the
ones I linked in my original comment are probably best
for video editing (while trackpads are at best decent
scrolling/browsing devices, but IMHO I personally
prefer keyboard scrolling like in the terminal pager
less, the PDF and other document viewer Zathura, and
vi-inspired browsers/browser plugins like luakit,
qutebrowser, and Pentadactyl).
SeanLuke wrote 3 days ago:
> Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific
object without affecting other objects on a screen.
I agree with you in general, but a trackpad is in fact
really, truly horrible for these tasks. As humans we are
designed to rotate objects precisely, and that design does
not involve using two fingers to slide about arbitrary
locations on a flat plane. It involves grasping and
rotating with the hand. For rotating and/or zooming, a
large knob attached to a high-resolution encoder would be a
million times better.
jaegerpicker wrote 3 days ago:
If you haven't looked at them before take a look at 3D
mice. Commonly used in 3D modeling and CAD drafting they
are the best at interacting with items in 3D space but I
wouldn't actually like one for text/flat image
interaction. Mapping 3D movements to a flat plane is less
intuitive than it may seem if you haven't done it. Most
the 3D professionals I know use a touchpad or regular
mouse for 99% of the non-3D usage.
breatheoften wrote 3 days ago:
How about a little sphere or oriented volume that
magnetically levitates out of its cubby when the device
is powered on -- and maybe the field could be varied to
simulate different amounts of resistance ...
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
I think you missed the goal of the multi-purpose
requirement. Proselytizing custom input controls for
every possible task on a portable device is...weird.
rzzzt wrote 3 days ago:
Some dials would be pretty cool on a laptop, though...
it just makes the lid harder to close.
mikeryan wrote 3 days ago:
Ergo the Mac Touchbar.
flukus wrote 3 days ago:
Some dials would be good everywhere, I've considered
buying some expensive keyboards ( [1] ) purely for a
volume control knob.
A common complaint around here is about how touch
screens have taken away better tactile controls, but
so have our keyboards.
URI [1]: https://www.daskeyboard.com/
rzzzt wrote 3 days ago:
I also liked the dedicated scroll wheel on MS
Office-themed keyboards. They might have gone
overboard with the clipboard control buttons, but
the wheel felt reasonable.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
>Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most"
with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular
indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should
not impose your choices upon others with different needs.
But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a
fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market. Does the
fact that non-Apple computers are hugely popular indicate
that the needs of Apple trackpad fans are not typical, and
they should not extol their virtues to others?
> Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific
object without affecting other objects on a screen. Or
configure to have multiple hotspots that when tapped can
trigger events or macros.
Iâve previously used a normal Apple mouse and keyboard to
do all of these things in Adobe Photoshoshop and
Illustrator on macOS and subsequently a random BestBuy
mouse and ancient Compaq keyboard to do them in Gimp,
Inkscape, and Blender on GNU (with xdotool for hot corners,
which Iâm counting as close enough to tapping hotspots).
A graphics tablet would only work better.
> Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other
people love them, and millions of people get real work done
on them each day.
Again, non-Apple trackpads donât seem to be your thing.
Good for you. The majority of trackpad users use them every
day.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
> But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a
fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market.
The person you're replying to said "trackpads are
popular" with no mention of Apple. Your entire argument
so far has been against trackpads in general. Why shift
goalposts?
likeclockwork wrote 2 days ago:
Is it even called a "trackpad" outside of Apple
machines? I'm pretty sure they're called "touchpads"
generally. So maybe "trackpad" is inherently referent
to Apple.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 2 days ago:
> Is it even called a "trackpad" outside of Apple
machines?
Yes. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Trackpad and touchpad are
generic synonyms according to every source I can
find.
URI [1]: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/laptop-faq...
URI [2]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-tr...
URI [3]: http://support.blackberry.com/kb/articleDeta...
URI [4]: https://edgeup.asus.com/2019/the-asus-screen...
URI [5]: https://wikidiff.com/trackpad/touchpad
likeclockwork wrote 2 days ago:
I'm not sure that they actually are. Touchpad was
the name I always heard for that kind of input,
remember they're not only used in computers.
I don't have the data but I think this is like the
motherboard / logic board split. In other words
"trackpad" may be Apple for "touchpad".
BugsJustFindMe wrote 2 days ago:
> I don't have the data but
I gave you data by showing links where other
companies like Blackberry, Lenovo, Microsoft, and
Asus use the word "trackpad" themselves for their
own devices. Lenovo even cutely capitalizes the P
to fit their ThinkPad branding. You could also
google around and see random people on reddit and
elsewhere talking about the "trackpads" on their
dells, hps, vaios, matebooks, and so on.
I'm not saying that "touchpad" isn't more common,
but the evidence _clearly_ shows that "trackpad"
isn't exclusive to Apple devices.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
The comment I was replying to was ~â
quasi argumentum
ad populum. So I replied to their quasi argumentum ad
populum with examples of it applied to the broader
context of the thread, including the comment I
originally replied to, and replied to their other
argument with counterpoints both with and without Apple
hardware.
throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
You... you do realize that you canât order a PC laptop
with a Mac trackpad, right? No one is like, âI could
have the Mac trackpad for the same cost, but I prefer the
stuttery trackpad that moves the cursor and selects shit
when my palm gets too closeâ.
airbreather wrote 3 days ago:
but I believe you can buy a bluetooth apple keyboard
with mousepad built in
saagarjha wrote 3 days ago:
For iPad.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
> You... you do realize that you canât order a PC
laptop with a Mac trackpad, right?
You can as long as you can order x86 Macs with
Bootcamp.
> No one is like, âI could have the Mac trackpad for
the same cost, but I prefer the stuttery trackpad that
moves the cursor and selects bleep when my palm gets
too closeâ.
No, but there are plenty of people who think âI
prefer no trackpad to accidentally swipe [âeven if
palm rejection is perfect, I want total hand
âincluding fingerâ rejectionâ] at allâ, from
people who buy Macs and use the setting Apple provides
to disable the trackpad when mice are plugged in, to
people who use their Mac as a PC laptop and manually
disable the trackpad ( [1] ), to people who try to more
permanently disconnect broken old Mac trackpads ( [2]
), to people who physically disconnect their trackpads,
to people who buy old thinkpads because eg. at least
some x200s have only a trackpoint and fingerprint
sensor.
URI [1]: https://www.lakshmikanth.com/how-to-disable-tr...
URI [2]: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/3866...
throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
It seems like you've moved the goalposts from your
original claim/implication that non-Mac trackpads are
more popular to "not everyone likes trackpads". As
far as I know, no one has argued that everyone likes
trackpads?
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
My implication was that the fact that many people
use trackpads doesnât somehow prove that
trackpads are a good tool (as reaperducer seemed to
imply) (despite the fact that people canât easily
get laptops without them) any more than the fact
that many people use non-Apple trackpads somehow
proves that non-Apple trackpads are better (despite
the fact that many people canât easily get
laptops they like without them).
reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
Iâve previously used a normal Apple Magic mouse and
keyboard to do all of these things
If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse
with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it!
And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't the
same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely
different process that is significantly less efficient,
unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you
want down to the 0.1°.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
> If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a
mouse with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it!
My mistake. I used a standard Apple mouse ( [1] ). I
used its clickable scroll ball and squeeze
functionality and suspect I would dislike the Magic
mouse.
> And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't
the same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely
different process that is significantly less efficient,
unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you
want down to the 0.1°.
IMO the ideal mouse + keyboard rotation style is
Blenderâs, which is more efficient in this scenario
than a trackpad. But I still believe a graphics tablet
would be objectively superior.
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Mighty_Mou...
jaegerpicker wrote 3 days ago:
Have three graphics tablets, while they are FAR
superior for art work they are not at all better for
rotation. In fact I use blender on Mac and regularly
use the trackpad to zoom and rotate because it's far
more precise. Similar for 2D drawing, my favorite 2D
environment is the iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. I still
rotate with two finger gestures.
kayodelycaon wrote 3 days ago:
> Iâve never understood why people care so much about
trackpads.
Because most people don't use vim and mice aren't usable
unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to hold
one. If I'm using my laptop on the couch, a trackpad is
probably the best solution. (Trackpoint gave my index finger
RSI, when I was was being careful.)
neilparikh wrote 3 days ago:
> mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat
surface with the room to hold one
Trackball mice a good solution to this problem. I had work
on a bed without a table for 2 weeks last year, and a
trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using
the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad
on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable if you do it often
enough).
wiredfool wrote 3 days ago:
Trackball mice are thick, and inevitably got schmutz in
the bearings and got slow. Then you'd have to open them
up and clean them out.
Trackpads were a great upgrade to laptops when they
happened, even though at the time, excessive moisture
screwed up the trackpad, to the point that I needed to
have a dime handy to put my finger on for a half hour
after getting out of the shower.
(Source: I've used mac portables since the PB 100,
including most of the major versions)
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
> a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like
using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to
trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable
Switching from the keyboard to something an inch away is
uncomfortable for you, but switching from the keyboard to
something a foot away is not? I don't get it.
neilparikh wrote 1 day ago:
Moving to the mouse is a movement where the distance
from my hand to the body stays the same, while moving
to the trackpad is a movement where I need to being my
hand closer. For whatever reason, I find the second
easier.
Additionally, when I'm using it on my lap, the trackpad
is basically next to my body, which makes my wrist
position a little uncomfortable.
Looking back, I think it's not really the switching,
but rather the comfort when using one for a prolonged
period, for which I found the trackball easier.
kayodelycaon wrote 3 days ago:
The angle on the trackpad can be uncomfortable when
itâs sitting on your lap.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
I find that the larger trackpads on newer macbooks
help with this a lot because the upper right corner
of the pad is easily accessible at exactly the same
angle of inward rotation by just pulling your elbow
back along the side of your body. The Apple magic, I
guess, is being able to have that without constant
phantom palm touches.
See [1] An offset trackpad would also work, though
obviously would be less friendly to lefties.
URI [1]: https://imgur.com/a/qeRQIFD
spaetzleesser wrote 3 days ago:
I had the same opinion until I used a MacBook. The trackpad
works beautifully, the gestures make sense. Itâs close to
perfect. Even while on a docking station at my work desk I
either the MacBook trackpad or the Magic Trackpad.
meetups323 wrote 3 days ago:
For general working, trackpad is better. You can type and
move the mouse without moving your hands.
dublinben wrote 3 days ago:
Did you mean a trackpoint? How can you type and move the
mouse without moving your hands with a trackpad?
losvedir wrote 3 days ago:
Use your thumbs. The track pad is right below the space
bar.
Or, it's close enough that with hovering hands you can
move back and forth between keys without looking. It's
much faster to navigate a code base that way, I think,
than trying to jump in vim lines at a time. A smooth,
continuous scroll at easily controllable, different
speeds does wonders for keeping continuity of a file in
mind.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
> easily controllable, different speeds
This is why I like having not just ^f/b full page, {}()
paragraph and sentence, and of course j/k line
scrolling but also ^u/d half-page scrolling so much
that I mapped them it U and D in Zathura and
Pentadactyl just for the centimeter of finger movement
that saves.
meetups323 wrote 3 days ago:
The funny thing is (){} are much further from where
your fingers are at home than the track pad is from
your thumbs on space.
boogies wrote 3 days ago:
{} are approximately as far but theyâre in the
same direction that your fingers naturally point.
() are farther but as words in the languages of vi
and vim they're a powerful operator that have no
mouse equivalent (unlike w[ords] and {}
paragraphs/lines which have double-click and
triple-click). Editing the middle of a sentence,
then deciding to move it to a footnote is IMO
easier with `di(}p` or `di(Gp`¹ than with `bend
thumb/wrist backwards / arm up and to the right,
drag thumb to end of sentence, double-click drag to
select one word at a time to the other end, release
and drag sentence down precise number of lines to
next paragraph or all the way to the end of the
document (or how I would move the selection,
Backspace, PageDown to the end, Shift+Insert)"
¹Let me test that. I like digraphs a heck of a lot
more than scrolling through a symbol list btw. This
was also a nice use for marks.
chrisseaton wrote 3 days ago:
Not sure what you're confused about - your hand can hover
over the keyboard and trackpad at the same time - they're
right next to each other. I don't need to move my hands
to go from one to another?
sixothree wrote 3 days ago:
Let me introduce you to the developers whose primary machine
is a laptop without a mouse. Or a second screen.
airbreather wrote 3 days ago:
Ha, no second screen, next you will be telling me you made
it yourself out of rocks and sand.
sixothree wrote 2 days ago:
To be fair, I am not describing myself. I have 4 monitors
across three machines in my office.
dingaling wrote 3 days ago:
We used to have a far better solution for that, the pointer
stick on Dell and IBM laptops. Direct control over the
cursor without abrading your sweaty dirty finger skin over
a frictive surface.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
> a far better solution for that, the pointer stick on
Dell and IBM laptops.
Please search the web for "trackpoint drift".
davidy123 wrote 3 days ago:
I've been a Trackpoint addict for over 20 years, using
computers 8+ hours a day. I wouldn't consider any other
pointer method. Trackpoint drift is an issue, but it's
not really a big problem. A few times a month, it
happens for a few seconds, then it works itself out. I
have had episodes of cramping, but they've gone away
with no long term impact.
It may be that I've become more zen/accepting, because
I'm sure a mouse or trackpad can be more precise
pointing tools, but it's worth it for the connection.
Input is all about the keyboard and mouse, and the
proximity just makes so much sense, especially when
using vim mode. I could imagine better systems where
typing with a keyboard is still the main input, but
they would all involve not taking my hands off the home
row.
hackyhacky wrote 3 days ago:
This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads.
BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
> This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads.
Funny, because I see people complaining about it
still in 2020 on brand new Thinkpads. See for
instance [1] and the comments saying "They all drift,
it's inherent by the sensor design", "It drifts on
all my ThinkPads too", "Mine sometimes drifts".
So unless your definition of modern is "ones that
haven't been released yet", I think you might be
wrong.
URI [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/k...
Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
I actually use the touchpad for scrolling even when Iâm
using a mouse. Itâs a much better interface for that
purpose.
medstrom wrote 3 days ago:
Now I'm picturing a fat tungsten scrollwheel with a lot
of inertia, that keeps spinning after you roll it.
the_hoser wrote 3 days ago:
When done right, they're wonderful. When done wrong, you end
up creating custom keybindings to augment your workflow and
lug a mouse around when that doesn't cut it. I've never seen
a PC laptop do it right.
1stcity3rdcoast wrote 4 days ago:
This is super exciting and I can't wait to see the machines in the
wild. Congrats on the launch!
bo1024 wrote 4 days ago:
Good luck, very excited for this! Any chance of a Linux or no-OS
option?
1stcity3rdcoast wrote 4 days ago:
The article says there's a linux/no-os option
aidenn0 wrote 4 days ago:
But only if you order the kit, not if you get it preassembled I
believe.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
This is correct. Thereâs nothing technical preventing us
from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but we
figured thereâs high overlap between that audience and
those who want to assemble a kit themselves. This reduces
the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.
rkangel wrote 3 days ago:
> Thereâs nothing technical preventing us from offering a
pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured
thereâs high overlap between that audience and those who
want to assemble a kit themselves.
This may be projecting myself onto others but I wonder if
that's actually true, and I would indicate the Dell and
Lenovo Linux options as evidence.
I personally run Linux on my laptop to reduce pain and time
spent doing unnecessary maintenance - I run Fedora on a
Lenovo and it works seamlessly. If I bought a Framework, it
would be for upgradability and maintainability rather than
for customisation.
reasonabl_human wrote 3 days ago:
I get the business case of universal pre-built inventory,
but offering a Linux version out of the box signals that
all hardware is compatible and fully functional...
supported at a first-party level.
More and more developers in big tech companies using Linux
just expect it to work and arenât interested in monkeying
around with drivers and configs.. not to say they canât,
but why increase friction for your dev setup?
This is one of the reasons why the XPS 13 Developer edition
exists. Guaranteed first party support for Linux.. you
know the next kernel or major revision wonât Bork your
setup... you can just focus on working within the env.
Offering a preinstalled Linux variant captures the market
referenced above, and signals to tinkerers that this is a
good platform to build on since all hardware is supported
without jenky workarounds.
Alternatively, if you canât make offering dedicated Linux
installs an economically feasible thing, then perhaps offer
a mirror or set of instructions to set up latest LTS builds
of various Linux flavors, to indicate full compatibility?
Because that is the real selling point. Knowing all of
your hardware is supported as a first party product.
Thatâs one of the biggest reasons why I chose an XPS this
time around, and considered a System76 machine as well.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
Great feedback. We will definitely at minimum post
guides and compatibility test results for the most
popular distros and ensure that at least Ubuntu LTS has a
straightforward path to full hardware functionality.
wing-_-nuts wrote 2 days ago:
Good man. I bought my XPS 13 explicitly because of
dells 'developer edition'. I don't need my OS
pre-installed, but I do want it fully validated and
working. Make a 14" and I just might give this laptop
to my parents and buy yours.
Valkhyr wrote 3 days ago:
Seconded.
I don't really need Linux pre-installed, but when I make
a buying decision I would be much more likely to buy a
laptop that is (a) guaranteed to be fully compatible with
Linux out of the box, and that (b) the manufacturer will
honor their warranty no matter which OS I choose to run.
That said, I think offering Linux pre-installed would be
very nice as a signaling function to attract
technical-minded users.
bo1024 wrote 3 days ago:
nrp's reply makes complete sense, but I like this
argument as well.
Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
Itâs not the end of the world, but not everyone who uses
Linux enjoys tinkering, some just want solid out of the box
support for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.
Valkhyr wrote 3 days ago:
Yep. I love Linux but hate having to futz around to get
basic stuff working. I'm ready to mess with some things
like display orientation on non-standard hardware like a
GPD Pocket to some extent, since you can't really expect
full out of the box support there, but when it comes to a
proper laptop I'm averse to OS-level tinkering just to make
stuff work (as opposed to tinkering in order to customize
to my preferences).
jdormit wrote 4 days ago:
Nothing stopping just installing linux on the preassembled
one when you get I though, I assume. Although I guess you may
have to pay for a Windows license in that case...
zorrolovsky wrote 3 days ago:
Yes, and that's the issue with most computers today:
there's no way to opt out to Windows.
Whether you like it or not, licensing cost is blended into
the computer and even if you don't use Windows you're
somehow supporting a company that you might not want to
support.
I undertand in 99.9% of cases people just want to buy a
laptop, turn it on and have it working. But I also think
there should be an easy way to opt out of Windows enforced
by law so that MS don't bang up numbers due to shady
commercial practices.
not2b wrote 3 days ago:
In many cases, the cost of the license to the OEM is
negative. That's because the cost of the Windows license
is more than outweighed by the payments they get for
crapware, adware, and 30-day trials, they get paid to
pre-install (and the crapware requires Windows). It
would actually cost them more to ship with no OS.
Silhouette wrote 3 days ago:
That's been true historically in a lot of cases, but
isn't the whole point of the Framework to do things in
a different and better way? It would be very
disappointing if a laptop like this was shipping with
that kind of junkware installed as standard even on a
Windows pre-install. In fact, it would instantly
reverse my position having just heard about these guys
from something like "I wish you luck, this is a much
healthier direction to push the industry in, and by the
way let me know when it's available in the UK because I
am definitely a potential customer" to something I
won't repeat here that involves not wanting anything to
do with them or their products.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
No need to worry! Our Windows pre-install is
vanilla. The only software added is the set of
drivers strictly needed to make the hardware
function.
Silhouette wrote 3 days ago:
Good answer. In that case, I shall remain happy to
have discovered you today and I shall continue to
wish you luck in shifting the market in healthier
directions. :-)
FWIW, I'd be much more interested in your products
as a solid platform for running Linux than whatever
junk MS is including in Windows 10 this week
anyway. But sometimes small issues can say a
disproportionate amount about where a business
really stands on some issues I care about, and
things like having control over my own hardware and
software for reasons ranging from longevity to
privacy are high on my personal list.
aidenn0 wrote 3 days ago:
My understanding is that companies are worried about
being perceived as tacitly supporting piracy if they ship
with no OS. I know, for example, HP will not sell you a
laptop with no OS, but they will sell you one with
FreeDOS.
Abishek_Muthian wrote 4 days ago:
All the best, Nirav. Long lasting repairable computing hardware is
what we need now and goes a long way than just not including the
charger within the box.
arcturus17 wrote 4 days ago:
They've got the street cred but producing and marketing hardware is
so damn hard.
Ouya and the Essential phone are two cases that immediately spring to
mind where the founding teams were credible, but the products ended
up being massive flops.
Good luck to them anyway. The idea is cool and I think if I were on
the lookout for a Linux laptop and they delivered on their quality
promise, I'd consider them.
jonplackett wrote 4 days ago:
Laptops seems a very different situation to this though.
There isnât a huge amount of ready to use phone hardware from
multiple competitive consumer suppliers I feel like integrating
into a phone myself.
But there are those things for a laptop.
If they can make this work at a reasonable price it would be
appealing even to me as an ardent Mac user.
SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
The OUYA did not have this problem. They packed stock standard
android hardware in to a box. The problem was that it didn't have
enough games to make it worth buying or enough developers to make
it work targeting.
I haven't read the details of this specific laptop in the OP but
I have seen similar projects go nowhere. What usually happens is
the product ends up a lot more expensive and lower quality than a
mass produced laptop and the project doesn't live long enough to
release a second gen of hardware.
It would make more sense for me to buy 2 Dell XPS laptops over
the next 10 years that to buy this hobby project and if I even
can, buy the upgrade kit.
jonplackett wrote 3 days ago:
Yeah it depends if you really can use cheap hardware with it or
if they're just locking you into their own proprietary stuff,
which as you say, could just get discontinued.
offtop5 wrote 4 days ago:
I think the problem here is you have two complicated things to
solve, both hardware and software and you're trying to do it with
out too much money.
A small hardware project on its own might be doable.
arcturus17 wrote 4 days ago:
Yea I agree the scope is more manageable than the examples I
mentioned.
But even then, they're tackling a very hard problem. Branding,
manufacturing, quality assurance, distribution... So many things
can go wrong.
I'm not making a prediction but I'm with Ars Technica in the
"healthy skeptic" camp. I do hope they beat the odds.
samizdis wrote 4 days ago:
Yes, I remember being particularly disappointed when Google's
Project Ara [1] to create a modular mobile phone was shelved. It
seemed like a fantastic idea, and I truly thought that
Alphabet/Google had the cash/clout - and will - to deliver.
Still, I haven't lost my optimism just yet. As you say, good luck
to Framework with the laptop project.
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
xondono wrote 3 days ago:
I was never very optimistic about Ara. In general, modular
electronics is a good idea in paper, but a terrible one in
practice.
- It comes with quite the price tag, adding connectors everywhere
gets expensive fast.
- Some interfaces are very tricky to modularize, RAM & CPU are
very closely linked, and itâs very hard to protect them from
ESD.
- Which generally points you to the PC solution, donât protect
it, enclose everything and standardize.
Thereâs also the more âbusinessâ part of modular
electronics. PC parts are only cheap through massive volume, but
building a modular phone requires you to (mostly) build all of
your parts. The only way to make it feasible requires more than
one device using the same modules, which defeats the uniqueness
of the device.
Laptops are way more feasible just because that modularization is
already on the market, and you donât need to build your own RAM
SODIMMs or SSDs.
jkepler wrote 3 days ago:
There's Fairphone, already two generations of modular phone
design. Unfortunately, they're only officially supported in
Europe. But if you're in Europe, and want a modular phone,
they're where its at.
Tijdreiziger wrote 3 days ago:
And IIRC they have LCD screens... Always-on display is a
'killer app' for me, so that immediately rules out the FP2.
(Tangentially related: I don't really understand why Apple
doesn't include this feature, even though they use OLED
screens.)
estaseuropano wrote 3 days ago:
See Fairphone!
tpmx wrote 4 days ago:
Project Ara seemed quite impractical/naive at the time. Myself
(and some people I trusted) dismissed it as yet another Google
flight of fancy.
This thing though, I can kind of see it working.
Basically: The pressure to minimize volume + weight is way too
high for a mobile phone to become modular. Then add recent
requirements like IP68 ratings.
In a laptop there's still some breathing room for modularity. And
noone expects a laptop to survive an accidental drop into a pool.
lallysingh wrote 4 days ago:
They were competing with their partners, that was always going to
end poorly. It could only ever be an experiment.
blacksmith_tb wrote 4 days ago:
Hasn't that always been true? Their Pixel 4a kept me from
buying a competitor's product.
robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
I feel like building a modular laptop is much easier than a
modular phone. You don't have to deal with the hardware
enumeration problems on x86 as you do with ARM
Already many laptops you can easily swap parts like the HDD/SSD,
Battery and RAM, and even the GPU (to an extent) if its using a
standard like MXM. Building a laptop with more modular parts
using existing standards (looks like from the images the modular
parts are using USB C Thunderbolt?) is much more doable than a
modular phone.
pimeys wrote 3 days ago:
It wasn't that long ago when manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo
had models where you could basically replace almost everything.
I guess still models like the T14 allows you to replace RAM,
SSD, Wi-Fi card, keyboard, touchpad and even the screen.
For the older models, even screen replacements are quite common
in the ThinkPad community...
Good luck for this project though, we really need more
companies like this!
notagoodidea wrote 3 days ago:
On some older Thinkpads, even CPU replacement was on the
menu.
pimeys wrote 2 days ago:
I think the 2012 generation was the last one. T420 at
least.
baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
Yep, designing custom ssd, gpu, ram pcbs will be of course more
expensive, and take time.
USB 3, and Thunderbolt are also complete disasters power
consumption wise, not to say that Type-C, and Thunderbolt chips
cost arm, and a leg.
kilroy123 wrote 4 days ago:
I too wanted to see this work, but I was skeptical. Maybe it's
just too ahead of its time?
de_nied wrote 4 days ago:
How much overhead will there be from having USB-C connected "Expansion
Cards"?
Will there documentation or support for enabling people to create their
own expansion cards (for ex. like S/PDIF)?
Will there be any support for high-end processors, perhaps in the
absence of a dGPU? Dell Latitudes 14" laptops have an Intel i7-10850H
which has 6-cores/12-threads, 2.70 GHz base, 5.10 GHz boost clocks. In
addition, will cooling be customizable? The Latitudes run pretty hot.
Finally, is there a ball-park on the price range we can expect on
pre-orders and say 1 year from release? $1,000? $2,000? Will it also be
a high upfront-cost, but low replacement parts cost? Will they both be
relatively high? Both low?
lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
This is the machine I was dreaming to have!
fossuser wrote 4 days ago:
Neat - I wonder how itâll turn out.
Itâs weird how little there is in the laptop space thatâs actually
good.
Macs, Thinkpads, maybe Dell XPS?
Everything else sucks. Itâd be cool to have another high quality
option.
tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
The Razer laptops are IMO the best Windows option available. Not as
good as the other options if you're running Linux, though.
folkrav wrote 4 days ago:
Thinkpads are far from being uniformly good, some models flat out
suck. Macs aren't immune to lemons either - see all the issues with
their keyboards after 2016, or the failing GPUs in some MBPs. Some
XPSes are good, but many models had horrible coil whine as well.
The LG gram was fine, if light and portable was what you're looking
for. The HP Envy line has been pretty decent recently. Back in school
I've had an Asus Zenbook I've quite liked as well. I've heard good
things about some System76 systems too, and they're basically Clevo
rebrands.
There definitely is good stuff on the laptop market.
kitsunesoba wrote 4 days ago:
I recently strongly considered a System76 Lemur but ultimately
opted for a Thinkpad X1 Nano instead due to reports of QC issues
with Clevo (and thus System76) laptops. It's too bad because I
think they get a lot right with bringing Linux to the general
consumer market, and Pop!_OS gets a few things right that plain
Ubuntu gets wrong.
xur17 wrote 3 days ago:
I have gone down a similar path twice now, and also landed on the
Thinkpad X1, due to a mix of QC concerns, low screen resolution,
and bulky looking laptop. My main concern about Framework is QC,
and making a sleek laptop (something that I would guess would be
difficult to get right directly out of the gate).
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
How do you rate the X1?
kitsunesoba wrote 3 days ago:
I haven't had it long enough yet to say anything conclusive,
but initial impressions are good.
Compared to a MacBook, build feels solid if not quite as rigid
but that's expected with how light it is. Doesn't feel flimsy.
Keyboard roughly on par with that of a 2015 MBP, but with a bit
more travel. Doing lightweight tasks it doesn't get hot on my
lap or spin up its fan.
So far have only used the included Windows 10 Pro license. Not
sure how Linux fares on it but from what I've read you'll need
a distro with a newer kernel.
fossuser wrote 4 days ago:
Yeah Iâm with you that even in the categories I mentioned there
are problems.
System76 comes up a lot, but to be blunt they seem awful.
Bad resolution displays, generally terrible build, bezels, etc.
I think thereâs a market for a really good non Mac laptop with
Mac quality hardware design.
folkrav wrote 3 days ago:
My point was, those high end machines that compete with mac
laptops already exist. XPS, HP Spectre, Surface laptop, higher
end ThinkPads and ZenBooks, Razer Blade Stealth and Pro...
As for S76 systems, you can't really compare a $2000+ Macbook
with a $1000 System76/Clevo ODM with the same criteria. They're
just perfectly fine machines for what they cost.
fossuser wrote 3 days ago:
> "They're just perfectly fine machines for what they cost."
Sure, but I don't care about the 'crap' segment of laptops. I
want more options at the Macbook price point. People often talk
about System76 as if they are Mac competitors too, so I don't
entirely buy your point.
> "High end machines that compete with mac laptops already
exist"
And they mostly suck. There isn't a good option that's a clear
stand out Macbook competitor. There is no Windows/Linux
hardware that's easy to point at and say this is clearly the
one to get. All the competitors are a mixture of bad tradeoffs.
Why?
I would think Microsoft would want to make a Surface laptop
that's competitive in this space (that targets developers), but
they haven't really.
folkrav wrote 3 days ago:
> And they mostly suck.
Agree to disagree - I pointed you towards 5-6 of them that
globally don't suck. Macs also have tradeoffs of their own
that you seem to have no trouble dismissing.
jtl999 wrote 4 days ago:
I've heard good things about Clevo based designs in the past but even
those seem to be questionable now.
numair wrote 4 days ago:
The website says that itâs by members of the founding team from
Oculus. You know what else is from the founders of Oculus? A company
making AI-directed killer drones and other toys being pitched as
essentials for World War III.
In 2021, the ethics of your products are as important as the products
themselves. And yes, thereâs a ton of hypocrisy if we compare to
$BIG_CO, but thatâs one of the tough parts of being young and new in
an era where the young new guys have gone from 0 to 100 and gotten old
and evil real quick.
Sorry to be so harsh, but Oculus connection that wins you VC dollars
will get in the way of a lot of other things in unexpected ways if you
want to tap consumer / prosumer. If you go after the defense market,
however, youâre golden! Not kidding. Call me crazy, though, but Iâd
rather have my dollars end up as far from war lobbying as possible.
tommybu wrote 4 days ago:
I love the initiative! It's in line with the right to repair movement
which, considering the HN crowd, is more than welcome these days.
I wonder though are there any plans to support coreboot?
andrewmcwatters wrote 4 days ago:
This is really cool, but I feel like the industry is missing something
like ATX for laptops.
That's what I really want. And hell, come out with a mini-ATX for
laptops if you're concerned dimensions won't end up competitive.
Sebb767 wrote 4 days ago:
This looks great, I _really_ hope this becomes sustainable and a long
running model.
I've upgraded my laptop just in 2020, but when Ryzen-based mainboards
and some high-bandwith plugins (10 Gbit SFP+/RJ45 or Thunderbolt)
become available, this will definitely go on the list. So best of luck
to you to become mainstream, so that these niche-parts can be
cross-financed ;)
dethos wrote 4 days ago:
This is awesome, has the same "spirit" of the Fairphone. I think this
is the direction the industry should be moving. However it will not be
easy to break this vicious and wasteful cycle that feeds many companies
nowadays.
marcodiego wrote 4 days ago:
What is really needed is a common chassis. A common carcass that allows
me the put whatever I want inside it. If I want a pinebook[1], I want
to be able to put pinebook guts inside it, if I want a mnt reform[2], I
want to be able to put mnt reform guts inside it.
Too bad eoma68[3] is still sci-fi. [1] [2]
URI [1]: https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/
URI [2]: https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-per...
URI [3]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
vforvendettador wrote 3 days ago:
There's a lot more to building laptop than putting different
components together. Portability, mobility, heat dissipation, design
to put as many things as safely (and profitably) possible etc.
Building a desktop is relatively easy. Desktop is designed to be
stationary and it's a lot more forgiving when connecting parts.
There's a lot more room to manoeuvre and for heat dissipation.
I think to achieve the purpose, where end-user will be able easily
customise a laptop will require a larger footprint and won't be
appealing to many users.
soared wrote 3 days ago:
I would expect this is similar to the tesla issue of building a
common carcass (skateboard) to build different types of cars on top
of.
mtrovo wrote 3 days ago:
In some sense Thinkpad X200 would fit what you're saying, its modding
community is quite active and there are a lot of people selling old
parts or parts designed to upgrade this laptop.
Last time I checked the only missing piece was a way to upgrade the
display, which didn't age very well (IIRC original resolution was
1280x800 and no HiDPI)
eeZah7Ux wrote 4 days ago:
The form factor of EOMA is simply unsuitable. Compared to any laptop
motherboard or SBC, the volume available in the slot is tiny.
CivBase wrote 4 days ago:
> What is really needed is a common chassis.
I agree. I understand why that wasn't a thing 10 years ago while
laptops continued to get thinner and bezels continued to get smaller
and I/O was rapidly changing and evolving. Modern laptops are much
more consistent, and standards like M.2 and USB-C have provide
excellent support for low-profile expansion. Now seems like a great
time to start rolling out standards for laptop motherboard
connectivity, display housing, keyboard/trackpad housing, and I/O
bays.
warmwaffles wrote 4 days ago:
That's not where the money is though unfortunately. It's why
manufacturers like the solder on components. Easier to manufacture
and make as small as possible. I hate it, and think it's bad for
consumers.
vbezhenar wrote 3 days ago:
They like solder because it's more reliable.
scythe wrote 4 days ago:
If the only barrier to building your own laptop was soldering the
components together, I'd have built one already.
CivBase wrote 4 days ago:
We managed to get standards like that on desktops though. What's
specifically different about modern laptops?
asdff wrote 3 days ago:
And those standards are shifting away too. See recent iMacs and
Mac Minis.
uluyol wrote 4 days ago:
Size, heat, weight, and noise are more challenging for laptop
design than desktops. Desktops tend to have things spread out
much more and you just don't care about some of these issues.
CivBase wrote 4 days ago:
Size and weight would definitely need to be consider by
component manufacturers, but it doesn't seem like that big of
a problem when it comes to standardizing a laptop chassis.
Heat and noise are definitely bigger concerns since a compact
laptop cannot rely on large radiators, fans, and liquid
cooling loops for cooling. But if you standardize the screw
holes and socket positions on motherboards and graphics
cards, I see no reason why a chassis couldn't ship with their
own case-specific cooling solutions which leverage heat pipes
and low-profile fans to provide cooling. Processor locations
are already pretty consistent on desktop motherboards and
graphics cards, so this wouldn't be something particularly
new.
ampdepolymerase wrote 4 days ago:
So a ThinkPad in Mac shell? Is the framework flexible enough to switch
an Intel processor for AMD Ryzen without having to replace the entire
motherboard?
rrss wrote 4 days ago:
No. You can't even do that in a desktop. AMD and Intel CPUs don't use
the same socket or pinout.
villgax wrote 4 days ago:
This is excellent, would have loved swappable 18650 based battery packs
too!
mark242 wrote 4 days ago:
Very disconcerting to launch a laptop without any mention of battery
life.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Apologies for that. We packed in a 55Wh battery and are using
popular silicon and a display that is used in several other popular
notebooks, so you can use those as a reference point. We didn't want
to state a figure in hours until we wrap up our firmware work and can
release reproducible benchmarks for it (since battery life marketing
statements tend to be pretty questionable).
skrebbel wrote 4 days ago:
Love the logo on the back of the screen. No stupid slogans, just the
cog, looks great! It makes no rational sense, but I'd want to own one
just for that.
Hope there's gonna be a touchscreen version! After all, a UI that you
can't touch is like coffee that you can't smell.
willyt wrote 4 days ago:
I didn't get the idea of a touchscreen laptop until I got an iPad
recently, now I'm constantly trying to touch my laptop screen and
then getting confused when I doesn't do anything.
pmontra wrote 4 days ago:
Nice project. However I see no Gigabit ethernet port. USB dongle for
the one of us that prefer the performance and the predictability of a
cable over Wi-Fi's whims?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
A Gigabit Ethernet Expansion Card is on our roadmap, though it is
going to look a little goofy compared to the other cards, since it
won't fit entirely in the current envelope.
LeifCarrotson wrote 4 days ago:
I'll second the parent's request for an RJ45 Ethernet port. It
can't possibly look any goofier than an Expresscard Ethernet
adapter!
One easy way to get it to fit would be to make the module thicker.
To avoid the whole thing sitting at an angle in the existing
envelope, you'd want to replace the little adhesive-secured feet
with taller, screw-secured feet to give it clearance.
I'm a controls engineer and am constantly connecting to PLCs and
robots in environments that don't do wireless networking. I have to
deal with all kinds of legacy hardware manufacturer's IDEs and
real-time protocols that work poorly with USB dongles. Of course,
your expansion cards are really USB dongles, and appear to allow
tool-less hot-plugging ( [1] ). I'd love to see an optional screw
to retain the card, and wouldn't mind shutting the laptop down and
rebooting it, especially if it meant it showed up in
/etc/network/interfaces all the time and never needed to be kicked
out of sleep with `ip link set dev eth0 up`.
Other desirable expansion cards would be a VGA port or DB9 serial
port; would those fit?
I fear that your efforts to reach beige-box compatibility are
really hamstrung by the obsession with thin and light laptops;
there's no way (for example) that you'll fit my preferred keyboard
(Lenovo 45N2211, out of a T420) and still have the hinges close
because the enclosure is so thin. I hope you succeed, but I
especially hope you produce a 15" workstation version that's 10mm
thicker.
URI [1]: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/exp...
Finn1sher wrote 3 days ago:
I wouldn't want it to be too thick, but I have to agree that a
quality keyboard is SUPER important. At the very least, 2mm
travel is much nicer than 1.5mm.
And because it's modular, they might as well add a programmable
ortholinear option! It would be a first in the laptop world, and
may actually be successful due to the rising popularity of
ergonomics.
Maybe the 2mm ortho could have standard qwerty labels printed on
the side of the keycaps, so it's not as obnoxious when people
bind different layouts or macros.
If I were to buy one, I would also buy the 15" version. Old
thinkpads are awesome.
pmontra wrote 3 days ago:
If they do a 15" laptop, please make the keyboard configurable. I
mean, no number pad for people like me and number pad for people
that need it and tolerates an off center touchpad and space bar.
sho_hn wrote 4 days ago:
I don't see any information on the licensing of the adapter card /
inter-module interfaces.
Can others build a Framework laptop without approval? Can others build
cards without approval? Will it be a platform?
Tell me how this isn't a Nespresso machine for silicon pods. :-)
Edit: To be clear, even a "we have a generic base laptop and you can
pick your I/O" concept is potentially a nice value prop, but it'd be
good if the picture (and roadmap) was clear.
znpy wrote 4 days ago:
tbh the adapter card really looks like a simple adaptor with an
usb-c/thunderbolt plug on one side. it'll take a week or two for
chinese knock-off to appear on aliexpress etc.
what i wonder is:
- can those cards be locked in place?
- can i hotplug/hot-unplug them ?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
They are hot swappable, and they latch in place. There is a button
on the bottom of the system to release the latch.
rzzzt wrote 1 day ago:
Can they be locked in place? I'm wondering if it will withstand
the pull of eg. the USB-A connection while it is being unplugged,
and disconnect on the USB-C side instead.
znpy wrote 3 days ago:
thanks!
Eric_WVGG wrote 4 days ago:
They're just USB-C dongles that snap into the chassis.. You can see
better shots here: [1] This is an unpopular opinion, but I think this
proves that Apple was right to dump legacy ports. This solution is
sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of internal space that could
have been spent on a bigger battery. USB-C, and the correct cables,
are all anyone needs.
(the Nespresso analogy is ridiculous, a laptop doesn't exist to
consume adapters. But I presume you were enjoying a little
tongue-in-cheek with your coffee)
URI [1]: https://frame.work
bigpeopleareold wrote 1 day ago:
There was at one point a couple of years ago when I had to attend
more meetings at work that I would the be the one presenting
something on my thinkpad only because everyone else had a macbook
and forgot their dongle. It could be solved by buying dongles for
each room possibly, but this was a persistent problem anyway.
(Thankfully, there is fewer meetings and they are just online now
:) )
I don't need the ports that much, but it is nice when the needed
ports are just there, because it is usually a selection of ports I
need. Maybe other people don't need what I need, but I prefer
having some occasionally port present, knowing its there when I
need it.
I think this project takes a novel approach to the problem, sort of
like what expresscards offered. Here, you can just add the ports
you need if you need as your defaults.
jonnycomputer wrote 3 days ago:
Yeah. Who needs a swiss army knife anyway. Just carry two knives, a
can opener, a corkscrew, a nail filer, a pair of scissors, a saw, a
screw driver, fish scaler, magnifying lens and toothpick.
addicted wrote 3 days ago:
What Apple did was gave people a solution that looks good on the
retail floor, but in practice involved carrying a bunch of dongles,
which take up more space, can break more easily, can be easily
forgotten and are more finicky while using.
In practice it leads to a significantly worse product for the vast
majority of users, for the benefit of the minority that falls in
the pro crowd and is able to get all their work done solely through
USB-C ports.
But the Apple Pro crowd users tend to include a lot of audio/video
professionals who have a lot of expensive devices they tend to
connect through USB-A, HDMI, etc, Photographers who were big fans
of the SD card readers, and business people who didnât really
need pro devices but could afford them, and were fan of the video
outputs for connecting to projectors and monitors, and maybe even
LAN inputs because many offices tend to discourage WiFi networks.
I think Apples big mistake was a category mistake. If they had made
the MacBook or MacBook Air all USB-C, for example, there wouldnât
have been too much of an outcry. But the MacBook Pro line is the
same one that carried a FW 400 port years after FW800 had been
released and even after FW itself was kinda dead besides certain
niche applications (which tended to be popular with Apple pro
users).
zepto wrote 3 days ago:
> the vast majority of users
The vast majority of users donât carry a bunch of dongles
around.
Itâs just true. What are most people doing?
Zoom, Excel, PowerPoint, Browser, Slack, etc.
rsj_hn wrote 3 days ago:
There are dongles at home and dongles to carry. For home, I
need a DVI adaptor that goes into a separately powered USB 3
hub so I can use a monitor, and I can plug my keyboard and
mouse into that. I am not a fan of the extra wiring though,
needing to power the hub takes up one more electrical outlet,
but it's not mobile and I can hide it, so no biggie.
But that means when I carry the laptop around I have to carry a
dongle for the mouse or not use the mouse. It depends. The
mouse is ergonomic and easier on my hands than the trackpad, so
I prefer to carry it. It's just one dongle, and I'm already
carrying the mouse, so not too bad.
I also need USB 2 for my Yubikey, which is USB 2.0.
Before I had USB headsets but that would be 3 USB 2.0 devices
and my portable hub only accepts two, so I ditched them and
switched to the old wired iphone earbuds since they are light
and stateless.
That also means I have to give up my ergonomic keyboard and use
the flat keyboard, but usually that's OK unless I am on a long
trip. If I'm on a long trip, I'll want that ergonomic keyboard
after a lot of typing at which point it's 3 USB 2.0 devices and
then I need to bring the powered hub with its own adaptor. I
can leave that where I'm staying and just take the mouse to the
coffee shop. But this adds complexity.
All in all, it's doable, I'm not complaining that it is an
insurmountable obstacle, but I would prefer a computer that was
a bit thicker and heavier but had more ports built just to
reduce the overall complexity of the setup and not worry if I
brought everything with me. When you compare the weight of the
usb hub and its adaptor to the extra weight added by adding a
few more ports, I'd prefer the laptop to be a bit less
demanding in input requirements. To me that would make for a
more mobile solution overall.
But honestly these are minor issues.
zepto wrote 3 days ago:
Sure - Iâm not saying nobody needs dongles. I have several
usb hubs and dongles attached to my desktop iMac.
Iâm just saying that that simply isnât true for most
people.
novok wrote 4 days ago:
I think either are fine TBH. Framework will definitely be a niche
play to a segment of a pro market that is currently ignored. It
will probably cost more than most equivalent laptops. They could
in the future make a chassis that is just 4 USB-C ports and give
you the space savings for other things.
I think the flush USB-C dongles are actually clever in another way,
you could make storage expansion bricks that have pass through USB
(or no passthrough) and get more storage on your laptop beyond the
one M.2 slot. It would be especially nice for video editor types,
who I've seen literally velcro expansion SSDs to their macbooks
with USB angle adapters [0] because dealing with dangling drives is
annoying.
[0]
URI [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ljFfuzStEQ
JoshTriplett wrote 4 days ago:
> This solution is sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of
internal space that could have been spent on a bigger battery.
I wondered about that as well. Looking at the picture at the top of
the main page, I see one small battery, and electronics that take
up 2-3x the size of normal laptop electronics. Most current laptops
have 60-80% of their chassis space occupied by batteries.
However, the description mentions a 55Wh battery, which is quite
reasonable for a thin-and-light laptop. It says 1.3kg, which is a
little heavier than desirable for the form factor (1-1.2kg), but
not by much. On balance, this looks like a much more reasonable set
of tradeoffs than past "repairable laptop" efforts I've seen;
Framework is putting serious hardware engineering effort into this.
robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
If it were a phone, I would agree. But laptops are much roomier,
and the space lost is probably negligible.
znpy wrote 4 days ago:
> This solution is sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of
internal space
this is true, yet... I'd be okay with that, to be honest.
My current work laptop (a dell latitude 7390) is a jewel also
because it's got a lot of ports. I have used them all at least
once, but quite frankly, never all at the same time.
So yeah, being able to unplug a port and plug a different one it's
almost the perfect middle ground.
we're pretty much all carrying dongles anyway (not me, the dell
latitude 7390 has all the ports i might need)
e12e wrote 4 days ago:
I guess someone misses pcmcia modems and network cards. Does seem a
bit odd to not just go for plenty of USB c ports.
lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
>I think this proves that Apple was right to dump legacy ports.
How it proves it? Those guys do not drop ports, they just make them
modular.
All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
I still dream to meet the one who made such 'wise' decision to tell
him what I think about it personally!
>USB-C, and the correct cables, are all anyone needs.
I am not sure you can know what anyone needs. For instance you do
not know what I need.
I wish you'll be around when I need to copy my files from the
camera with idiotic dongle in the field when time is precious.
I would love then to hear how sticking card directly into the slot
without any headache is less comfortable than looking for some
dongle in the bag while holding your camera equipment and then
hanging dongle on it's wire because there is no table around to put
your laptop on or put it somehow on your lap and try not to move to
avoid it breaking during the transfer because then you'll have to
start again transferring your important pictures. Then pray it
will work
because some times it will not when you need it most.
Removing sd-card reader slot is example of the most idiotic design
decision I can imagine. It is taking what works perfectly and
destroying it for no reason at all. It is pure damage without any
benefits taking size of it into account.
It was done by people who never used laptop for transferring photos
from the camera using sd-card.
They never thought that while you transfer with the sd-card your
other card is available to continue shooting in critical or
unexpected situations. This is what makes the difference between
making some shots and not! I would never understand this idiocy of
removing sd-card slot to "save space".
The whole point of laptop is to save YOU space and headache or
space in your BAG! Not in the laptop itself by making it useless.
Such a dumb decision to remove useful ports. Goodness.
ogre_codes wrote 3 days ago:
I must be doing something different from you. I have one adaptor
on my desktop which lets me get display/ power/ USB A. Itâs
nice because it means removing the laptop means unplugging one
thing.
I donât take any dongles with me. Or any adaptors. My laptop
case is just a protective sleeve and sometimes I bring the power
brick.
It would be nice to have one USB-A port, and HDMI, but itâs not
that big of a deal either.
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
>I must be doing something different from you.
You do. From my perspective you are barely use laptop as laptop
for any serious work on the go.
Look at my use-case
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
Eric_WVGG wrote 4 days ago:
I'm not sure what you need "tons of adaptors and wires" for since
you're only talking about SD cards, but to address that one
example: what percentage of laptop users are professional
photographers? One percent? A quarter? There are at least six
fashion photographers in my apartment building and even I know
they're a negligible slice of the population.
Apple should not be designing their laptops around the needs of
1% of users. That's just dumb. They should be designing for most
users, and they are.
Which strategy makes more senseâ¦
1. users who need SD card readers should carry around SD card
readers
2. users who don't need SD card readers should carry around SD
card readers
I don't need an SD card reader! I'm glad Apple is using that
space to make the laptop more portable with the most battery
possible.
The whole point of laptop is put as much power as possible into a
device that is as portable as possible. The point of a bag is to
carry around shit that YOU might need and the rest of us don't.
Goodness.
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
Before going any further you do realise that there is enough
space for micro-sd-card reader even on raspberryPi Zero?
And I hope you do realise that I am talking about sd-card
reader just for the most obvious example, it doesn't mean I
have nothing more to say or wish from laptop.
I think this is not about what majority wishes when you develop
a tool that you label as 'Pro', it's about what device can and
cannot do and as such what Man can and can't do using it!
>I'm not sure what you need "tons of adaptors and wires" for
since you're only talking about SD cards...
First of all it is a real mobile usage. And I mean serious
usage 'on the go' (and it could be 3 month + of 'the go')
My laptop is the only machine I have and could have in such
scenario. And as far as I know this is exactly what laptop was
meant to be - device for mobile work.
My use-cases are:
I do Software Development:
- Developing software for iOS: Which means I need to have one
of each kind for testing iPhone/iPad/iPadPro and connect each
of them periodically. Only for that purpose more ports are
justified because I would prefer to have 4 at least to connect
all 3 iOS devices plus hard_drive for backup etc. If there is
additional monitor around that I could use I would love to use
it which means I need HDMI/display port.
- Developing software for MacOS. I am developing FileManager
for Mac and few other projects on the go. Which means Xcode and
resources it requires. Also external monitor port hdmi/dp - any
I can find around depending where I am.
- Developing software for GNU/Linux. which means sometimes a
need for Ethernet port to track down issues.
- Using Terminal for remote connections to raspberryPi/s which
means wired connections when there is a need of speed or some
problem. It also means I use sd-card-reader for this too.
- Developing software for reMarkable tablet. which means VM
GNU/Linux machine on Mac which requires
more_storage/more_memory/more_processing_power and again free
USB-A port to connect rM for speedy connection/charging.
- Making some hardware projects on the go:
Arduino/ESP32/8266/raspberyyPi etc. which means periodically
connecting those and I must have cable connections when
something breaks and wifi would not help. I also do not need
additional dongle in the chain when tracking down some
problems. It saves a lot of time to have less items to check as
the check itself takes time * number of times you do it.
Needless to say that those devices barely work with simplest
USB 2.0
I do Music:
- I play Guitar. So I need to connect a Guitar for
recording/performing, which means I need line-in .
- I sing and if I wish to record it I also need external mic
which means one more usb/line-in.
- I play Piano: If it's real piano the same needs for mic if
it's electronic piano - perhaps line-in, if it's midi - usb.
You know at least one line-in would be great just in case I
wish to connect something in creative situation for creative
purposes.
I do massive Photography/Videography:
- Some times work as photographer/videographer. I have Nikon
Camera with sd-cards and need periodically but intensively
transfer of huge Video Footages.
Wifi for such sizes is simply not an option. I also need ports
to connect few drives at the same time.
I need diff types of ports if I work with other people and
usually they are not equipped. Again the difference sometimes:
it's done or not due to some dumb limitations.
- I do Argentinian Tango Teaching/Dancing/Performing.
Which means I need remote control to stop/play music during the
class. Where the IR port that worked fine?
I need wired audio connection to
whatever-audio-system-i-can-find and if my bluetooth speaker
doesn't_work/not_enough for certain halls . I would also need
HDMI/DP/DVI or even VGA port to have external screen connected.
I never know what screen will be available at some place. Again
the difference would be: It's doable/Its' not doable.
- I also need to relax and watch movies some times and I also
wish to do it with friends sometimes which means
HTMI/DP/DVI/VGA whatever we can find.
I do not know your use case but as you can imagine with all
that activity the last thing I need is another dumb dongle to
deal with.
Since I travel with my guitar I have 'literally' no space in
the bag for adapter and wires because most precious things I
have to take with me on the plane and I have to pack them
really tight if I wish to avoid boarding complications.
I simply have no space in the bag nor space in my mind to deal
with another stupid problem like dongle/adapter.
There are projects that require all of theses use-cases
simultaneously. And since I wish to do things with top quality
possible I need all the equipment to work perfectly too because
I relay on it and if it doesn't work it usually means something
will not be done. I am sure any pro would confirm that. I
simply cannot afford having some stupid dongle. Believe me. I
need MacBookPro and it should be really 'Pro'!
Again, I do not know your use-case but for me some people are
just barely using laptop as laptop at all for goodness sake.
And if we are talking about 'Pro' shouldn't we listen to people
like me who is literally using all the features to the full
extent.
These are my use-cases and what are yours?
webmobdev wrote 3 days ago:
Who needs earphone jacks too right? /s
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
Exactly. I do need it. I also need mic/line in jack for
guitar/any_other_instrument where _any_ delay is not
desirable
tstrimple wrote 3 days ago:
How far do we take this? What percentage of Macbook users use
the tilde key? How many users open the terminal? What
percentage of users use multiple desktops?
The reason Excel remains the dominant spreadsheet software is
because it has dozens of features that other spreadsheet
applications don't have. Each one of those features is only
used by a small portion of the user base but if you add up the
users which use at least one of these features it starts
representing a significant chunk of users. Each of those
feature independently isn't worth implementing in competing
platforms because "Google sheets should not be designing their
app around the needs of 1% of users", but the culmination of
all of those features add up to a platform Google Sheets just
cannot compete with.
jki275 wrote 3 days ago:
Nope.
The reason that Excel remains the dominant spreadsheet
software is that it's the best spreadsheet out there, and
it's almost universally installed on all school and business
computers.
zepto wrote 3 days ago:
The difference is that software doesnât take up physical
space or use physical resources.
The answer about how far we should take it is, as far as is
reasonable.
tstrimple wrote 3 days ago:
Is the space actually being used more effectively? What can
fit in the laptop without a SD card slot that couldn't fit
with one present? Why is a smooth side with no ports
somehow more valuable than a side with usable ports? You
can't think you'll see any savings passed along to use for
Apple taking out a part that costs them a few dollars at
most. Removing the feature won't save any consumers any
money, only reduce usability overall.
whynaut wrote 3 days ago:
> What can fit in the laptop without a SD card slot that
couldn't fit with one present?
More battery.
bigpeopleareold wrote 3 days ago:
... which will have to occupy an extremely thin case.
I mean, extreme thinness is not really an important
criteria for many, but everything seems to gets
compromised to serve that goal.
gowld wrote 3 days ago:
Why would I buy a laptop based on what you need, instead of
what I need?
Eric_WVGG wrote 3 days ago:
Thatâs my point exactly, I donât want to buy the laptop
you need either. Since Apple canât make models for all
users, they design around the needs of most users. And
practically nobody needs SD card readers.
tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly. I'm
pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use case. I
feel like only extremely serious photographers and perhaps a
particular slice of musicians use them. It makes absolutely no
sense for them to have that built into the laptop. 99% of people
who own Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because
they don't need it. However, and extra USB-C port can be used for
a multitude of things, including being an SD card reader if you
have the dongle.
It's completely logical.
> The whole point of laptop is to save YOU space and headache or
space in your BAG!
It most certainly is not. The point of a laptop is to strike a
balance between portability and usability. Requiring the extra
like two cubic inches of space in your bag for a dongle is
assuredly not a design concern.
lmm wrote 3 days ago:
If we actually got enough USB-C ports to make up for all the
removed ports (like, 8 or so?) then I'd agree with you, and be
willing to put up with the temporary pain of dongles for the
sake of a glorious future where everything's USB-C. But we've
ended up with the worst of both worlds: say I bring out my
laptop for movie night and I want to plug in power, projector,
surround sound, a DVD drive, and a mouse, that was easy 5-10
years ago and it's impossible now.
c17r wrote 3 days ago:
This is my complaint about the latest iPhones. Iâm fine
with the move from analog to digital but WHY just one port!?
opan wrote 3 days ago:
They make hubs/docks with many ports that only need one of
your USB-C ports. There's also daisy-chaining to consider. I
think you most likely could connect all those things.
lmm wrote 12 hours 15 min ago:
I ended up having to daisy chain a dock to a USB hub, and
then I would get errors if I connected the wrong things to
the hub because I was breaking the 7 hub limit (turns out a
lot of things have extra internal hubs). Obviously I did
get it to work eventually, but it felt a lot more
complicated and fragile than in the old days.
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
>I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly
It does. Micro-sd-card reader fits even in raspberryPi Zero ...
Neglectable "space saving" advantage vs huge usability
disadvantage.
> The point of a laptop is to strike a balance between
portability and usability.
I think MacbookPro should be about philosophy of amplifying
creative person with power tools for creativity in a portable
way. Not a dumb machine mimicking more and more some TV . While
this it should also do easily it shouldn't do just this, I
think.
Look at my use-case: [1] From my perspective of extensive use
of a laptop some people barely use laptops at all and thus
perhaps they better be designing something else because for me
it appears they have no idea what 'Pro' usage is. When you
travel you never know what environment you'll have and therefor
ports and connectivity make a difference between: Creative idea
done/ not done.
>Requiring the extra like two cubic inches of space in your bag
for a dongle is assuredly not a design concern.
It's not 2 cubic inches. It's huge adapter with all missing
ports. Why Pro Laptop should consist of two parts is beyond me.
Again look at my use-case. I have no place for dongles nor time
for dealing with them.
If those real 'Pro' requirements are not a design concerns then
perhaps MacbookPro should not have 'Pro' in the title in my
opinion.
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=26271855
craftkiller wrote 2 days ago:
This looks to satisfy all your requirements from your
original post: [1] Its ~2 cubic inches and doesn't dangle on
a cable so you don't need a table/lap.
As for your more detailed post you just linked to:
> Only for that purpose more ports are justified because I
would prefer to have 4 at least to connect all 3 iOS devices
plus hard_drive for backup etc. If there is additional
monitor around that I could use I would love to use it which
means I need HDMI/display port.
USB4/thunderbolt 4 allows for type c hubs that also support
alt-modes like displayport alt-mode so you can have a small
cellphone-sized hub to significantly increase your ports: [2]
> I would also need HDMI/DP/DVI or even VGA port to have
external screen connected.
Surely you're not suggesting that laptops built in 2021
should have a VGA port? This is exactly what tomtheelder was
referring to when he said:
> I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use
case [...] 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever don't
own an SD card dongle because they don't need it. However,
and extra USB-C port can be used for a multitude of things
Just think of all the extra thickness Apple would be adding
to their laptops just to fit a VGA port 99.9% of people would
never use.
URI [1]: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1514535-REG/s...
URI [2]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RYZJY8M
lovelyviking wrote 2 days ago:
>This looks to satisfy all your requirements from your
original post:
Thank you for the link. Unfortunately it only looks so.
It satisfies only partly because it's still headache to
remember where it is, remember to take it and when
something like that sticks out of your machine probability
to break it when there are people around is very high and
not unusual. Also you can tilt accidentally your laptop and
it cat potentially break the port completely.
With all that said the reality now for instance that it is
simply not available in the country I am right now
unfortunately. I cannot move because of the covid situation
and I am limited with what I can order. My MacbookPro has
died gracefully (you can read how if you wish: [1] ) I have
managed to get M1 machine but now I'll have to deal with
adapters that are available around.
Because I do not have sd-card-slot my photography is
limited to zero currently until I find adapter that would
work. I have additional headache to choose one that works,
and they lie about the specs and you never know what you
get so this is the reality of all those theories about 'oh
you can get a dongle'.
I just wish to add that when you are really mobile and
travel in different countries it is Not unusual situation.
Even if it's developed country it's not easy to order
something in a small town or even in a big town. Usually
small towns do not have something you need, you can count
on that. Probably you can buy a new Mac probably like I did
but it's M1 with 2 ports and some nice adapters will be not
available there. Again this is the reality , not the theory
where you can access everything you need whenever you need
it.
The second item you've mentioned is nice. Thank you again.
It can be useful when I'll be able to reach it. Right now
all my drives are usb3 to fit MacbookPro I had. This hub is
also requires power supply brick as I understand and again
it would be simply impossible to get the hub you've
mentioned where I am at the moment.
So in my case it will be huge adapter hanging on wire and
let us pray it will work as expected.
>Surely you're not suggesting that laptops built in 2021
should have a VGA port?
No, I am not suggesting that. HDMI an micro-sd-card reader
do not add any thickness though and are still very useful
for flexibility in real world. When I took my previous Mac
I thought I will not use HDMI but mobile reality made it so
that at some point it was the only way I can use it and
extract data from it and the external port allowed me to
boot gnu/linux. The M1 Mac on the other hand become not
bootable in the first day because of the bug in DiskUtility
and I needed 'another Mac' to make it even bootable again
so from my perspective I did not upgrade I have downgraded.
>_extreme_ niche use case [...] 99% of people
For me it's not about how many people use something it's
about what a portable computer allows you to do and how
flexible , productive and creative you can be with that
tool. I do not want to go further about what else 99% do
not do ... following majority was never too exciting for
me.
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25809097
ogre_codes wrote 3 days ago:
I generally think the whole dongle issue is over exaggerated,
you can mostly just buy new cables (once) and be done with it.
The SD reader is one of the big exceptions I think. If you
always need a cable to do something, you can just replace the
cable with a USB-C one and be done with it. Having an
integrated reader is handy for a fair number of people and
itâs something where you donât otherwise need an adaptor.
Qwertious wrote 2 days ago:
The new cables means your cables aren't backwards compatible
though - one day you need to plug in a display port cable to
someone's desktop/old laptop and you don't have the cable on
you, because you replaced it to avoid dongles.
Dongles are both cheaper and more flexible than replacing the
cable, at the cost of having a slightly shittier experience.
dvdkon wrote 3 days ago:
I use my notebook's SD card reader all the time. Cameras, ARM
SBCs, 3D printers, random SD cards I find laying around...
There's plenty of use cases for an SD card reader, I certainly
use video out on my notebook much less.
opan wrote 3 days ago:
It's also the main storage on the Wii, DSi, 3DS, (maybe Wii
U, but it also had USB storage. I guess the Wii did too.) and
Switch. An SD card reader lets you back up your game saves or
install homebrew.
More recently there's the PinePhone as well. It's not just
expandable storage, you can boot off the SD and have all your
OS and files there.
I would say I definitely use SD cards more than flash drives
now.
tait wrote 3 days ago:
> random SD cards I find laying around
Can we explore that a bit? Laying around your house? Or
like on the ground at work?
I seem to remember some corporate espionage that relied on
people looking at random SD cards they found on the ground...
dvdkon wrote 3 days ago:
Mostly my and my friends' homes, but I do remember finding
an SD card on the ground once... Do you think I'm being
targeted by spies? :) It had someone's pictures on it, but
no identifying information, so I had no way of returning
it.
Thankfully random SD cards should be much safer than random
USB devices, but it's probably better to be careful.
bigiain wrote 3 days ago:
> It had someone's pictures on it, but no identifying
information, so I had no way of returning it.
You could hav put your laptop on a network with heaps of
monitoring going on, and then mailed it back to
NSA/GRU/MSS/Mossad as required based on the ip addresses
your machine started connecting to...
;-)
webmobdev wrote 3 days ago:
> It makes absolutely no sense for them to have that built
into the laptop. 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever
don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it.
That's the issue - you are speaking only from an Apple user
perspective. Android (and other non-apple) phones allow us to
extend our storage with sd cards, and they are mostly used to
store and transfer photos and videos.
thw0rted wrote 5 hours 53 min ago:
I'm an Android user whose phone supports microSD. I never
take the card out of my phone -- it's a PITA, requires an
ejector tool I always manage to misplace, and I think I'm
only supposed to do it with the phone powered off -- but I do
plug my phone into a computer to move files on and off of it.
I do this with a USB-C cable.
bigiain wrote 3 days ago:
> Android (and other non-apple) phones allow us to extend our
storage with sd cards
/me looks glumly at my Apple-ized Samsung Galaxy S6Edge, with
no SD card or removable battery. (Both of which would make
the S6/GearVR combo significantly more useful...)
EvilPaticus wrote 3 days ago:
Is that an Apple user perspective or just reality for the
average user? I recently had an Android phone for a while and
never thought to use an SD card because it had plenty of
internal storage. I can say the same about my family and
friends who use Android devices, I can't think of any who use
SD cards at this point. Even in the past when I did use an SD
card in my phone, I simply plugged my phone into the computer
and wrote to the SD card that way, I don't recall ever
removing the card.
sib wrote 3 days ago:
And most "extremely serious photographers" today are probably
using cameras for which SD cards are not the storage format (or
at least the preferred format.)
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
It Depends how you measure "extremely serious photographers".
Starting from Nikon d610 you have descent quality on sd-card
plus portability in the same time. I understand that you
can't put all the ports in the world in the laptop and while
CF Cards reader would also be useful for photography I think
sd-card reader or even micro-sd-card reader gives a
compromise for mobile solution that covers many needs. Lack
of this sd-card reader gives additional headache and nothing
more useful as I see it.
Terretta wrote 3 days ago:
Exactly. And since we might carry more than one model of
camera with dissimilar memory cards, the Mac could need 3 or
4 slots. Thatâs why the good pro photo USB-C adapters have
3 or 4 slots.
Further, those readers seem to be made /just/ fast enough to
read ahead of the current speeds, so when new speeds come
out, you need a faster reader. That works fine if you have a
USB 3.1 or USB 3.2 adapter, but not so great if the reader is
built into a laptop with an otherwise much longer life.
sjs382 wrote 4 days ago:
> How it proves it? Those guys do not drop ports, they just make
them modular.
In the case of the framework laptop, most of the "modules" just
seem to be USBC/Thunderbolt-to-X dongles that fit flush with the
case.
nine_k wrote 3 days ago:
This is very important.
For those who use a laptop outside office desks, there is a lot
of difference between flimsy setups with dongles hanging on
wires, and the mechanically solid laptop case. Much easier to
carry it around in one piece.
sjs382 wrote 3 days ago:
If you need something more 'rigid', things like this exist:
URI [1]: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/product/B07PCP5J4Z
sgustard wrote 4 days ago:
> All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires
It's a reasonable tradeoff. Imagine your laptop with the power
supply built in instead of as an external brick.
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
>It's a reasonable tradeoff.
Saving 0.1% of space for micro-sd-card reader and having
headache of dongle for every photo/video transfer? Doesn't
appear reasonable at all. They have found space for
micro-sd-card reader on raspberryPi Zero ... It's absurd not to
have it even on the phone.
Look at my use-case [1] > Imagine your laptop with the power
supply built in instead of as an external brick.
You know what? Great! One thing less to care separately . It
would be bad thermal solution though.
By the way the brick itself was coming with extension cord. Now
it comes without it. Imagine during your travel squeezing it in
some public place with bad socket to charge it when it doesn't
fit well enough and could even fall and break and your life
depend on your ability to charge it. Do it few times during few
travels, then you will understand how "reasonable" was to even
to remove the extended power cord from the brick.
Many things appear 'reasonable' on the paper until you use them
in real life.
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
recursive wrote 4 days ago:
You mean I could charge with any cable? How do I get it?
sjs382 wrote 4 days ago:
For my M1, I thought I was in a pinch when I forgot my
charger at work. I was fine, thoughâI just plugged in my
18W USB-C phone charger and used it while WFH.
imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
I hope iphones swap to USB-C soon for exactly this reason.
randomchars wrote 4 days ago:
> All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
Maybe that's the case for you, but that's far from universal. I
have zero need for any adapters. At work, I can use usb-c to
connect to my monitor, and if I need to present in a meeting
room, I do it wirelessly.
At home, I can use airplay to share my screen to my TV.
saagarjha wrote 3 days ago:
Your monitor which happens to have ports on it?
randomchars wrote 3 days ago:
It does, and well, they all sit empty and unused.
yonaguska wrote 4 days ago:
> All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
A good dock solves this- it's not mobile, but I find that I'm not
really that productive when I'm travelling anyways.
I only wish that docking solutions became standard offerings with
the laptops that skimp on ports.
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
>A good dock solves this
It doesn't solve it. Look at my use-case [1] >it's not mobile,
but I find that I'm not really that productive when I'm
travelling anyways.
Laptop is for real mobile usage. In a way you have no need for
it according to your description.
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
sleepybrett wrote 4 days ago:
I'm down to exactly one adapter in my bag. One usb-c male to
usb-a female stubby little guy.
If I'm heading to someplace where I think I might need more than
1 usb-a port or a situation where I might need a bit of a usb hub
I just pack this little 'dock dongle' that's about three inches
long and an inch wide that has three usb-a ports (2x3.0 1x2.0),
an hdmi port, a sd and tf card slot, an ethernet port, an audio
jack, and a usb-c power input port... cost me all of 60$.
jonnycomputer wrote 3 days ago:
All of this thread comes down to those who want their laptops
to be Swiss Army knifes ready for any situation, and those who
don't.
sjs382 wrote 4 days ago:
I'm down to one, too. And for what it's worth, I've used it
about 5 times since I got my M1 in December: [1] If "using it
on your lap, without something hanging" matters to you (like
the parent) and you wanted something more 'rigid', things like
this exist:
URI [1]: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B085ZQZXFX
URI [2]: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/product/B07PCP5J4Z
CoolGuySteve wrote 3 days ago:
Yeah I'm in complete agreement. A single "dock" dongle with
all the ports you could possibly want are cheap, light, and
have smooth designs that won't snag on anything.
I have one buried in my bag that I almost never use. It's
surprisingly rare that I need an Ethernet or HDMI port but
they're there if I need them. In the meantime, there's more
room inside my laptop for battery.
Even an extra 5Wh of capacity is about an extra hour of use.
lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
What you describe is exactly the headache I was mentioning and
dreaming to avoid. I do not need part of the laptop separated
from the laptop to have additional task to think when to take
them together and when not to take them together.
I do not want to search for this 'little guy' in the dark and
be stuck without it when I forgot to take it because a lot of
other things happening in the same time around or I lost it or
somebody took it because he thought it belongs to him by
mistake.
Having the dongle headache or not in certain situations means
missing shots or not. And I speak from experience of shooting
intensively in addition to doing other things during 5-7 days
in a arrow where you do not always have time to eat/sleep and
surely no time to waste for this dongle BS.
treve wrote 3 days ago:
The issue with this thread is that it seems like an argument,
but different people just have different sensibilities.
Get the machine that suits _you_. Unless you want to run
Apple OS because then you're not given choice.
lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
For me it's not about what suits who. For me it's about
what philosophy you put into design of a portable computer
as a tool and what it can allow/encourage you to
achieve/create.
funcDropShadow wrote 3 days ago:
> Get the machine that suits _you_. Unless you want to run
Apple OS because then you're not given choice.
And that is exactly the point. I used to be a very happy
customer of multiple Macbook Pros over almost a decade.
Currently, I am still using my 2015 Macbook Pro 15" with
maxed out specs when not in my home office. But all the
later models went downhill for my needs. The new Macbook
Air M1 is the first model that I am thinking about buying.
It is probably powerful enough to work on it, and I think I
actually get some value back from the saved spaced due to
dropped ports. Even the 2015" Macbook Pros with 15" are at
a thickness were I simply see no point to remove even half
a milli-meter of thickness. I would gladly use a thicker,
heavier variant if it had multiple different ports
including Ethernet. One problem that I had over the time
with all Thunderbolt dongles was that the physical
connection became unreliable over time. That is hassle I
don't want to deal with.
tait wrote 3 days ago:
They are supposedly bringing back more ports...
URI [1]: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.macrumors.com/g...
CarelessExpert wrote 4 days ago:
Looking at the design, I'm not sure that expansion card concept is
responsible for the thicker case. The reality is, supporting
replaceable memory, mainboard, etc, likely necessitated a somewhat
thicker design.
Assuming that's correct, I think it's kinda clever... it's
basically a dongle system that allows the modules to sit flush
instead of jutting out of the side of the laptop.
bryanlarsen wrote 4 days ago:
Is it a useful form factor on other laptops? The market for RJ45
dongles is a lot larger than the market for framework, so if a
vendor can hit both markets with the same product they'd be more
likely to do so.
XorNot wrote 4 days ago:
Apple burns almost all of their space savings on making the machine
thinner, to the point of absurdity.
Apple is content to push everything into dongles (which you have to
carry around anyway) to get it thinner. The point at which I can't
have a wired RJ45 ethernet port is already ridiculous - that is not
a thick connector. Same with fullsize USB ports.
Battery life there are hard limits as well: nobody is making a
laptop with more then 100Wh, because that's the limit that you can
carry onto an aircraft.
bee_rider wrote 4 days ago:
People seem fine with it.
If you are bringing your laptop to a coffee shop, you probably
won't need an ethernet port anyway, so you can leave the dongle
at home. Lots of mobile use-cases don't involve plugging in to a
ton of things, so why waste space having ports for it?
We're mostly programmers here, with nice keyboards and big
screens as a necessity for work. On the other hand, lots of
people are completely content with the base laptop. Making things
easier for us at their expense is probably not a great business
decision.
funcDropShadow wrote 3 days ago:
But lots of other mobile use case do involve plugging in to a
ton of things. I would like to have the option to get the ports
builtin. I am not arguing they should stop making those
crippled variants without ports.
Luckily, macOS is going downhill as well, therefore my pain
will end when the next version has not resemblance to a Unix
system any more. The day Apple starts migrating its desktop OS
to hamburger menus, I'll wipe and sell all my remaining Apple
hardware.
bee_rider wrote 3 days ago:
They could make different models and operating systems for
every niche I guess, but people who need lots of ports and a
UNIX-like experience on a laptop are pretty far out in the
tail of the distribution I think.
I dunno. I've never owned a macbook because Linux has been
good enough for most of the time I've seriously been using
computers for work stuff. Even if you aren't a Linux
enthusiast, the time to switch for developers was more than a
decade ago, IMO.
gertrunde wrote 4 days ago:
Agreed, the point when I start to have to choose any two of
usb-tethered phone / usb to ethernet / usb to wifi headset / usb
to serial really gets infuriating.
sleepybrett wrote 4 days ago:
URI [1]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079GSMZ7G/
gertrunde wrote 3 days ago:
While that's great an everything, my preferred option is less
dongles, not daisy-chaining them...
Edit: Actually, didn't spot the Ethernet port on the first
glance, might be worth a deeper look. :)
znpy wrote 4 days ago:
i have one of those, they work very well.
ppezaris wrote 4 days ago:
I'm sorry who is using RJ45 ports on a laptop these days? Seems
like that question was asked and answered years ago, and wifi has
won.
anonu wrote 3 days ago:
Depends on who your audience is. HN crowd: give them an RJ45.
t0astbread wrote 3 days ago:
Apart from what everyone else was already saying I have another
cool use case: When transferring large files between two
devices it's neat to be able to establish a point-to-point
Ethernet connection between them, configure static IP addresses
and netcat the files over it. It's fast, I don't need to
encrypt anything and I'm not hogging anyone's bandwidth.
NovaS1X wrote 3 days ago:
Every single one of our laptops gets sent out with an
accompanying Ethernet dongle. Every one.
Still very much useful in corporate environments.
webmobdev wrote 3 days ago:
Come on, that's ridiculous - wired LAN is more secure and
faster than Wifi - anywhere I go, I prefer wired to Wifi.
funcDropShadow wrote 3 days ago:
Hands up.
My laptop is sitting at home 1,5 m away from my Unifi access
point and the network cable is still measurably more reliable
and performant. Wifi might have won the amateurs.
robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
At work when at my desk. If every device in the office were on
Wifi, things would be a mess
imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
USB-C Dock solved this problem for me.
NikolaNovak wrote 4 days ago:
Yo (hand up).
I mean. Really. That strikes me as willfully ignorant and
arrogant. Clearly it's heavily used, especially in
professional/corporate environments.
FWIW I use WiFi if I have to on the move.
But at home and office it's hard wire all the way.
In the office it's not even an option, everybody must.
At home, it's a quality of life thing.
The speed drops and disconnections and unpredictability of WiFi
are not thing of the past yet. For some there's a security
issue as well, real or perceived.
Wire just works.
Edit: other examples - gaming laptops; secure networks; dense
environments either urban or corporate; anything that needs
predictable connectivity, bandwidth and lag really :-/
imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
"Clearly it's heavily used, especially in
professional/corporate environments."
It's so clear that they removed it from their lineup? Clearly
you're wrong. I have two Macbooks work/home, and a USB-C dock
has been life changing in its awesomeness.
And yes my dock has RJ-45 ;)
NikolaNovak wrote 3 days ago:
Hmm I feel we're getting circular.
There are discussions on:
1. Is a particular connector still used/useful on laptops -
my statement is that RJ45 is absolutely still used on
laptops, and went into some examples / use-cases.
2. Separate discussion, hopefully informed by the first, is
how do we do that - built into laptop or via a bunch of
dongles.
Apple in particular removing it from their laptops does not
speak one way or another to corporate/professional
environment requirements. Their approach is "use a
dongle/dock" which in their view is compatible with
whatever use case is needed (and some people disagree,
which is fine - lots of vendors and in particular
HP/Dell/Thinkpad all have robust
professional/corporate/roadwarrior models with dock, port
and even pointing stick capability).
fomine3 wrote 3 days ago:
Kensington lock is widely used by enterprise (pro) but
Apple won't support it. The "Pro" is just marketing
comparing to "Air".
ben-schaaf wrote 3 days ago:
> It's so clear that they removed it from their lineup?
Clearly you're wrong.
They also removed scissor switches, sd card readers and
hdmi. But they're bringing those back (or have already), so
they don't seem like a good authority to appeal to here.
imwillofficial wrote 2 days ago:
Have they? Their newest laptops are USB-C only.
adrian_b wrote 3 days ago:
Exactly the same applies to me.
Both my own laptop and the laptop from my employer (a large
company) are used almost all the time on wired Ethernet, the
main exception being during business trips.
m4x wrote 4 days ago:
I use it on a regular basis to connect to industrial networks.
Wireless is not typically available in that situation and for
good reason.
liotier wrote 4 days ago:
Welcome to dense urban environments, where the list of
available wi-fi networks is well above fifty and the throughput
well under 100 Mb/s on a good day... When I sit at my desk, I
plug the RJ-45 and I get 1 Gb/s - no ifs, no buts !
km3r wrote 4 days ago:
I use mine nowadays, because my room is just far enough from
the access point for occasion zoom drops. The 'better' solution
would have probably been to put an access point right in my
room, but I already have an RJ45 dongle + ethernet cord and I
trust a cable connection to have less drops than wifi.
auxym wrote 4 days ago:
I've worked in many companies (both software and non-software)
where ethernet was the only way to access the corporate
network.
One had WiFi that only gave internet access, the other had no
WiFi at all (in 2017).
msla wrote 4 days ago:
> I'm sorry who is using RJ45 ports on a laptop these days?
Everyone who understands collision domains.
Everyone who understands bandwidth.
imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
I don't think you understand collision domains.
msla wrote 3 days ago:
I understand that a WiFi LAN is one.
imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
Every port on a switch is one.
msla wrote 3 days ago:
[1] > By connecting each device directly to a port on
the switch, either each port on a switch becomes its
own collision domain (in the case of half-duplex
links), or the possibility of collisions is eliminated
entirely in the case of full-duplex links. For Gigabit
Ethernet and faster, no hubs or repeaters exist and all
devices require full-duplex links.
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_domain
imwillofficial wrote 16 hours 0 min ago:
"or the possibility of collisions is eliminated
entirely in the case of full-duplex links."
So is a wifi connection full or half duplex?
I don't think you understand collision domains.
jdxcode wrote 4 days ago:
I would say I run into a situation where I dig my RJ45 dongle
out of my bag once per year still. Usually if I'm in a
different office or trying to fix Wifi or something.
For me the dongle is annoying but probably sufficient.
I've also worked in offices where the Ethernet was better
because it didn't require VPN access and was more reliable, but
in those situations I plugged it into my monitor rather than
directly into the laptop.
Razengan wrote 4 days ago:
> a wired RJ45 ethernet port is not a thick connector.
â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦
ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
There are ultra-slim foldable RJ-45 connectors[1], which
manufacturers could use if they could be bothered but they
don't, because they would rather save the BOM cost of it and
advertise the WiFi capabilities instead.
Only Fujitsu use them AFAIK.
URI [1]: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/12/8/1675...
xyzzy_plugh wrote 4 days ago:
I've seen them on some ASUS laptops as well.
znpy wrote 4 days ago:
laptops without an rj-45 ethernet connector are just dumb.
it's perfectly feasible to integrate one.
just look a the dell latitude 7390. really, look at it:
URI [1]: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/eB6gGRDZWSYT4XW6Se...
rplnt wrote 4 days ago:
That's just a place to gather junk. People rarely use rj-45
these days, that's why it's not present on most laptops.
ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
If by people you mean consumers, then yes, if you mean
corporate/tech workers, then no.
rplnt wrote 2 days ago:
I mean all people. When you work on the laptop you
probably connect more things than a network => you have
a dock => you don't need the rj45. So there might be
negligible amount of corporate workers that need it,
and some portion of tech workers, maybe. But overall,
out of all customers, it's not enough for the hassle.
Especially since it has drawbacks for the rest of the
customers.
Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
I don't think we even have a cable with RJ45 in the
office I work in. Everyone's on Wi-Fi. All developers.
Just saying.
ChuckNorris89 wrote 3 days ago:
In our case it's the opposite. Whole company is
wired. No WiFi.
Razengan wrote 3 days ago:
In our case it's the opposite. Whole company is
WiFi. No wired.
znpy wrote 3 days ago:
we have it mixed: both wifi and wired are there.
pick what's best for you.
bombcar wrote 4 days ago:
I don't see how that DOESN'T get broken on the second use,
honestly.
jdxcode wrote 4 days ago:
One careless snag of the cable would have to rip the
aluminum apart I would think
freeone3000 wrote 4 days ago:
The connector's on the top, the bottom is simply a
retention clip. If it breaks, you can replace it with
tape, or simply resting the laptop on a surface while the
cable is plugged in.
ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
Because it's meant for ultra-slim devices that will be
docked on Thunderbolt 99% of the time and that foldable
RJ-45 jack is for the "in case of emergency break glass"
scenarios, that 1% of the time when you need to patch into
a server physically without wasting time looking for a
dongle, not for you to constantly plug/unplug ethernet
cables in your laptop.
If your uses case requires you to constantly plug/unplug
ethernet cables in your laptop then you need a workstation
class laptop with a full sized RJ-45 jack, not a sleek thin
and light.
GekkePrutser wrote 4 days ago:
That one yes. But Lenovo has great collabsible Ethernet
ports that are very durable and this laptop is more than
thick enough to house one.
sho_hn wrote 4 days ago:
> the Nespresso analogy is ridiculous
Well, sort of :-) Nespresso is a famous implementation of a "your
basic machine stays static, you swap out a different element of the
system based on temporary/current needs, but you can only buy those
elements from one vendor" pattern. Printer ink cartridges are
another.
Yeah, add-on cards to a computer aren't consumables per se - but
the entire premise is that as time goes on you might want to get
new ones (because your current needs change), i.e. upgrade. Whether
I can pick upgrades from different vendors, and what the tax
imposed on creating and/or selling upgrades is, matters.
gregmac wrote 4 days ago:
I don't understand this criticism. On every other laptop on the
market today, if you want different ports you either buy dongles
or buy a whole new laptop.
Every laptop I've ever owned has at least one port I never use,
and after a couple years it's missing some other port I'd rather
have. This one seems to solve that problem, extending the life of
the machine and/or avoiding dongle hell.
sho_hn wrote 4 days ago:
If the value prop is that it's nice to move the port adapter
dongle into the chassis rather than having one dangle from a
port, so it's an ergonomic improvement you're sold on, sure.
I'm not saying that can't have a market.
But if you can only buy the dongle from one vendor, it's going
to be more expensive than if there's a market where multiple
vendors compete. It's that "you can only buy the adapter from
Apple, and it's really expensive" thing, just moved into the
chassis.
Hence the question which one of those we're looking at here,
and it was kindly answered by a rep above.
baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
Luke Leighton tried to make something like this for a really long
time.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
We will be releasing specifications and reference designs for the
Expansion Card system under a permissive license. We want to make it
easy for both other companies and members of the community to develop
their own cards and sell them through the Framework Marketplace.
That is something we'll be detailing and sharing between now and the
time we start shipping out the product. We'll also provide
documentation around internal interfaces, though those will be more
technically challenging for an individual to be able to build
something with.
kettro wrote 3 days ago:
It mentions the keyboard as being modular - any chance of a
trackpoint keyboard?
rsync wrote 3 days ago:
Can you somehow bring back the PCMCIA interface ?
Favorite hardware form factor ever ...
sedatk wrote 3 days ago:
It looks like the laptop supports any kind of expansion card that
can be bridged over USB-C. So, it's just a matter of someone
developing it for the platform.
jedimastert wrote 3 days ago:
This might be a silly question, but it looks like the adapters are
just usb-c/thunderbolt devices with a nice case. Is this the case?
I'm not knocking it if it is, I personally think it'd be pretty
clever, but it means being able to use them in other places (like
pretending the storage expansion thing is just a usb-c flash-drive)
and it would have interesting implications for making them.
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
That's correct. That is one of the intended use cases for our
Storage Expansion Cards. You can use it on your Framework
Laptop, pop it out, plug it into an other machine that supports
USB-C, and transfer files at high speed.
judge2020 wrote 3 days ago:
Dongles, but built into the case. Amazing.
cwxm wrote 3 days ago:
Not sure if that was your intention, but I would pay Apple
level prices for this.
musingsole wrote 3 days ago:
I'm in love.
kspacewalk2 wrote 4 days ago:
>We want to make it easy for both other companies and members of
the community to develop their own cards and sell them through the
Framework Marketplace.
What if they don't want to sell through the Framework Marketplace?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
They can choose not to, but since the Framework Laptop itself is
sold through our Marketplace, it's a good way to get in front of
the existing users!
marcodiego wrote 4 days ago:
Any chance of the company ever releasing only the chassis so I can
buy it and put my favorite arm sbc inside it?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Actually, yes! We will be offering the chassis by itself. The
intent is to make sure that someone can get back into a good
state if they drop their laptop down the stairs or something, but
there is nothing preventing you from picking one up to use for
your own projects (though adapting everything to work with an ARM
SBC would be non-trivial).
marcodiego wrote 3 days ago:
Cool! Please make the display hdmi compatible and you will own
an entire underserved market.
traverseda wrote 4 days ago:
What makes it non-trivial? I'd love to see a standard laptop
frame that all the SBC manufacturers could throw their board
in.
I imagine their could be vendor-specific expansion cards for
SBC's, like one that is just an HDMI extension which only works
with the vendors SBC and doesn't use USB-c. Maybe vendors could
implement one "framework" compatible expansion port and provide
several of their own expansion cards that only implement SBC
features, and plug directly into the SBC instead of generic
usb-c.
Shared404 wrote 4 days ago:
I would also be interested in this.
dmos62 wrote 4 days ago:
Compatibility and upgradability (together with maintainability) is
why I stopped using laptops. Your offer sounds interesting, but if
it's a platform, instead of a free standard, it's a far cry from
the freedom and competition in the stationary PC market. Maybe
that's what it takes to move the issue along. I don't know. But
that's my knee-jerk reaction.
likesfwlaptop wrote 4 days ago:
Hello, glad you're here but I'd urge you to remember that while a
minority at HN is highly knowledgeable and technical, hn is an
hive-mind opinionated niche and hope that you'd make decisions that
widen your reach among general populace so that your firm survives
to make money and eventually more such laptops. (Also, hopefully
your laptop will play with linux as well as Lenovo's at some point
in future).
NicoJuicy wrote 4 days ago:
Pretty rude and then you ask them to focus on <2% of market
share...
Perhaps there are more urgent tasks for "targeting the general
populace to reach profitability".
input_sh wrote 3 days ago:
It might be <2% of all market, but amongst tinkerers? I'd be
surprised if it's below like 10-15%.
ogre_codes wrote 3 days ago:
This is what I was thinking. Maybe even more.
If this laptop doesnât support Linux, itâs a big missed
opportunity.
tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
I think you've interpreted the comment you replied to
completely backwards.
NicoJuicy wrote 3 days ago:
You sure? It's a new account and it's a totally weird comment
without any real value.
Ps. That's why I hate potential sarcasm.
teekert wrote 4 days ago:
Did you find they don't work well with Linux? That'd be a big
shame, I think the Foss crowd likes these kind of initiatives.
mymindstorm wrote 4 days ago:
It seems like it will work just fine:
> For those of you who love to tinker, weâve also created the
Framework Laptop DIY Edition, the only high-end notebook
available as a kit of modules that you can customize and
assemble yourself, with the ability to choose Windows or
install your preferred Linux distribution.
whitten wrote 2 days ago:
The modularity of a Framework Laptop promises a lot of good.
I know there are some workplaces where having wifi working is
not permitted. Is this modular enough to have a wired
networking plug and not have a wireless wifi ?
Thanks for your info
oconnore wrote 4 days ago:
Nespresso pods for silicon sound great! Iâm not a hardware
engineer, Iâm just tired of $800 âreplace the entire main
boardâ repairs when I broke my âHâ key.
Schlaefer wrote 3 days ago:
These laptops exist today, just vote with your wallet. I don't
know, Lenovo's T-series is popular, e.g. the T14: Here's how to do
it (page 72) [1], new keyboard costs around 50 bucks.
URI [1]: https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/t14_gen1_p1...
xbar wrote 3 days ago:
I agree with you. I cannot avoid saying: you don't have to throw
your whole coffeemaker out after every pot if you don't have
Nespresso.
gillesjacobs wrote 4 days ago:
Great initiative, but the proprietary expansion cards are entirely
counter-productive to maintainability.
The expansion cards will only be available for as long as your company
provides them. Using the most-commonly used, mass-manufactured standard
interfaces for components would provide more long-term repairability
and upgradeability.
The trade-off would be in design resulting in more bulk and in the
economics of your company, of course. It seems cynical to me to sell
maintainability while starting a walled-garden ecosystem of proprietary
hardware.
colonwqbang wrote 4 days ago:
It looks like the expansion cards are just USB-C adapters that fit
inside the case. If so, it should be pretty simple to make a
compatible expansion card. Or just plug in any dongle you like,
ignoring the form factor.
gregmac wrote 4 days ago:
In the worst case (they change the interface spec and no one else
produces old modules, or the company folds entirely) it's not any
less maintainable than any other laptop on the market today. I think
most laptops still allow storage and battery upgrades/replacement;
RAM is questionable (some being soldered on the motherboard); and
anything else basically means replacing the whole device.
kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
We will open up the expansion card spec and share reference designs
to enable partners and the community to build their own! I want it to
be open as much as you do.
gillesjacobs wrote 3 days ago:
Sounds like a good solution to me, I hope you succeed, I surely
will keep an eye on the project!
I assumed it wouldn't be an open design because the marketing
didn't mention it. I would integrate this message in your marketing
because it's worth convincing critical audiences.
ehnto wrote 3 days ago:
Is there a catching/locking mechanism for the expansion module that
holds it in place? It would be a shame if the whole module came out
when trying to remove a particularly firm USB connector.
opsy2 wrote 3 days ago:
Yes (source: another comment that described it. lock & button to
remove. hot swapping supported)
colonwqbang wrote 4 days ago:
Is it "just" an internal USB-C connection to the expansion card? Or
is there something else going on that could be more difficult to
work with?
kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
Nothing that goes outside the usb/displayport standards. We have
to be compatible to support the passthrough card :).
ryandrake wrote 4 days ago:
This is a great first step. Ideally the expansion story converges
on some kind of industry-wide standard, like PCMCIA was. Would be
cool to have other peripheral manufacturers out there agreeing on
the spec and committed to building expansion hardware!
burlesona wrote 4 days ago:
Well, HN will love this. Moddable laptop with a good webcam? Nice.
But:
- I really dislike the arrow keys not having the air gap above left and
right. Youâd think theyâd learn that from the MacBook butterfly
keyboard era.
- itâs a little disingenuous to say âno adaptersâ when in fact
their little expansion cards are merely adapters that insert into the
chassis of the laptop. Only four I/O ports is a little tight (despite
Apple deeming it to be âenoughâ)
- that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by todayâs standards.
Itâll be interesting to see how people respond, when many (especially
in this crowd) have been clamoring for this kind of thing. How many
will actually vote with their dollars, and will that be enough for
Framework to survive and become a viable competitor in the laptop
space?
I hope so, as I welcome the diversity and innovation that would
represent. But I admit Iâm skeptical as to their chances.
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
Not sure if we're looking at the same photos and specs, but it looks
and seems thin and light to me - 16mm thick, and 1.3kg according to
the specs. I'm aware you can get slightly thinner, but not much
lighter. IMO, anything thinner that this is making horrible
sacrifices elsewhere, for little more than diminishing aesthetic
returns.
Let's not forget that this is repairable, upgradable and expandable -
when I first saw the HN title, I was convinced it was going to be a
brick. It actually looks great, like a premium laptop from Dell or
Lenovo. But supporting up to 64GB or memory, and repairable etc.
Pretty amazing, I think.
zerocrates wrote 3 days ago:
I really do hate full-height left and right keys, they're strictly
worse in my usage.
andrewflnr wrote 3 days ago:
It's not "disingenuous". Everyone knows they're talking about
external dongles because those are the kind of adapter that's
actually annoying. Complaining about their modules because they're
implemented in terms of USB-C is the worst kind of technically true
but semantically nonsensical nitpick, precisely because it takes a
long comment like this to unpack it but only a few words to make it.
Sebb767 wrote 3 days ago:
And, additionally, using USB-C is a common and widely used standard
- slamming them for using that instead of something proprietary (to
make it less "dongly") is really not a good thing.
gregmac wrote 4 days ago:
> Only four I/O ports is a little tight
Maybe, but how many do you really need?
I have lots of stuff plugged in at my desk -- but it's plugged into a
dock, and there's just a single cable that goes into my laptop.
Thinking about my usages in the past few years, I can't think of a
time where 4 ports (of my choosing) wouldn't have worked for me -- so
long as I could change them over the lifetime of the device.
mattowen_uk wrote 4 days ago:
For me, the huge trackpad in the middle front is the problem. Centred
trackpads, weren't a problem when they were about 1/2 the size, but
they've steadily been getting bigger and bigger. Now almost all
laptop trackpads are at a size where the base my thumb and the edge
of my wrist brush against them, causing endless false touches. If I'm
typing for any length of time on a laptop, I now always disable the
touchpad and plug in a mouse. Give me a laptop with an offset smaller
trackpad please. I suppose people who only use a laptop, learn to
type with floating hands with claw-like fingers, but I use a desktop
most of the time, so my resting-wrists-on-the-desk style of typing
doesn't work.
I can't be the only person with this problem?
Edit: While I'm ranting, I am 100% sure that the touch-logic in
trackpads favour right handed people (same with mobile phone screens)
and as a leftie it seems harder for me to perform complex multi-touch
actions than it does for right handed people.
burlesona wrote 4 days ago:
The MacBook trackpad somehow knows when youâre not touching
intentionally... so I agree with you in theory but on that laptop
specifically the palm rejection is good enough that it doesnât
matter.
jnwatson wrote 4 days ago:
I'm with you. I just got a new Precision and the track pad is 6
inches by 3.5 inches (no exaggeration). I think the idea was to
accomodate left and right handers, but it has gone way overkill.
It is large enough to be a Wacom-style drawing tablet.
OldHand2018 wrote 4 days ago:
I hate Windows laptop trackpads because they seem to interpret
everything as a click. Fortunately you can turn that off in
Control Panel. Apple's default trackpad settings are good.
EDIT - my new problem with Windows 10 is that it somehow interprets
certain accidental motions on the trackpad as me wanting it to move
to some sort of strange workspace overview screen that appears to
be completely useless and not at all what I wanted.
tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
I think it's really case by case. My previous Dell laptop was a
nightmare, but I have a Razer Blade now and the trackpad
experience has been flawless, totally on par with my work issued
Macbook.
foobarian wrote 4 days ago:
> - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by todayâs standards.
I am not a fan of today's standards. As I write (on an external
A1243 keyboard) I look at the closed touchbar MBP in front of me and
cringe at the gap between the cover and the body go from zero on the
left to 1/4" on the right. This laptop is too thin for its own good,
for no good reason, and I look forward to how sturdy this design
would be with the extra thickness (not to mention all the other
goodies they list).
intrasight wrote 4 days ago:
If they indeed succeed in creating an open "platform" then if you
don't like the keyboard, you can replace it with one that you do
like.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
The arrow keys were an interesting challenge. We actually prototyped
both versions, and the full height ones ended up feeling better to
most folks. It's definitely a matter of personal preference though.
The Framework Laptop comes in at 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg. So a
couple of sheets of paper thicker than a 13" MacBook Pro, but a bit
lighter.
On the Expansion Cards, that is fair. We can say we're getting rid
of the need for adapters that protrude from the machine and need to
be removed when you need to transport it.
technojunkie wrote 3 days ago:
The arrow keys gap as an option would be awesome, I hope you
reconsider
ajford wrote 4 days ago:
What's the chance of a thicker/deeper version in the future? I'd
love to see one with enough thickness to support a low profile
mechanical keyboard for custom layouts.
With my RSI, I'm almost unable to use standard laptop keyboards, so
I have to travel with a split ergo keyboard. Most laptops have
enough room to support a split ortho layout, but aren't thick
enough (or modular enough) for enthusiasts to roll their own.
Take a look at the Thinkeys [0] and pineapple60 [1] projects for
what's possible.
[0]: [1]:
URI [1]: https://github.com/dennisleexyz/thinkeys
URI [2]: https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60
CarVac wrote 3 days ago:
Wow, that Pineapple is amazing.
I gotta do that with a Mitosis layout for myself.
mdpye wrote 4 days ago:
How modular is the keyboard? I can see a replacement sat next to
the case in the photo, but is the layout cut in to the case?
If you can make an alternative case with an (e.g.) 12x5 1u grid
layout keyboard that lets me put my thumbs to use and stop
contorting my fingers, I will more of less open my wallet and let
you take what you fancy!
asoneth wrote 3 days ago:
I came to say the same thing. Ortholinear (grid) or staggered
columnar keyboards would appeal to an extremely small but
passionate group of ergo keyboard users. Given that the
alternative for folks who use this kind of layout is to carry
around a separate $150-400[1] keyboard I think at least a few
people would be willing to pay a hefty premium for a laptop with
a customizable keyboard. [1]
URI [1]: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
URI [2]: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
grenoire wrote 4 days ago:
Is the upgrade system proprietary, i.e. will I be able to get in new
parts besides RAM and disks when Framework is no more?
Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust and modular
as the desktop ecosystem?
burlesona wrote 4 days ago:
> Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust and
modular as the desktop ecosystem?
No.
The robust desktop ecosystem is powered by a bunch of categories that
donât really want laptops: gamers, business, research, some
developers, etc.
Desktops are âwork trucksâ while laptops are mostly âcars.â
mushufasa wrote 4 days ago:
reminds me of this
URI [1]: https://www.ebay.com/b/CardBus-Laptop-Port-Expansion-Card/4232...
saurabhnanda wrote 4 days ago:
I feel horrible whenever I end-up damaging an electronics product in
such a way that repairs do not make any monetary sense. Mostly this is
because the manufacturer doesn't bother in building out a healthy
service network for their product because they'd rather force you to
buy a new model.
If priced right, I'll buy this as my next laptop. And the next phone as
well -- if they ever launch one.
f6v wrote 4 days ago:
> with the ability to choose Windows or install your preferred Linux
distribution.
10$ says itâs going to be quite an effort to run Linux on it. Nice
idea though.
kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
Kieran from Framework Here - Using it as my main machine for
development running Ubuntu 20.04 right now.
The main tweak is running a mainline kernel with some distributions
as Tigerlake support is new.
rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
Any luck with fingerprint sensor drivers? I know that's a big
problem. Still not working on my 4yo thinkpad
f6v wrote 4 days ago:
Donât get me wrong, itâd be great to have a good Linux laptop
on the market. However, Iâve read too many Dell XPS reviews to
stay on Mac(which is suboptimal due to the nature of my work).
Thereâs always something that is misbehaving on Linux laptops:
WiFi, the sleep mode(i.e. you open the laptop and itâs ready to
work), touchpad, fingerprint reader. Maybe itâs too much to ask,
but i) is your laptop MacBook-level smooth on Linux ii) how could
you achieve it when big players with much more resources failed?
SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
The Dell XPS works fine on Linux if you get a model that is at
least 6 months old. Usually what happens is on day one people go
and add support for the wifi card and then it takes 6 months for
ubuntu to ship a version that includes that support.
After using both a macbook and a dell xps on linux this year, I'm
a whole lot happier using the dell xps. The XPS has functional
cooling at least.
kiwijamo wrote 4 days ago:
I bought a Lenovo X1 Carbon expecting excatly the situation you
describe so stuck with the preinstalled Windows 10 for some
months. I was pleasantly surprised when I summoned up the courage
to try Debian. I had no trouble at all with all you described
except the fingerprint reader (which Windows 10 also had trouble
with FWIW). Was not planning on Linux as my daily driver but from
Day 1 it worked well enough as an immediate replacement for
Windows 10. The trackpad is not quite as good as the Mac but
again seemed on par with the experience in Windows 10. Surprised
you stayed on Mac despite listing fingerprint reader as a must
haveâI'm not aware Mac laptops have these?
f6v wrote 3 days ago:
Fingerprint reader is definitely not the top priority, but
saves a lot of typing when retrieving a password from the
password manager. And yes, I think all MBPs that have a Touch
Bar had one, new airs as well.
Howâs battery life and thermals under Debian? I guess all
Intel CPUs get hot, but at least my MBP is quiet enough.
Battery life life isnât that great though.
auraham wrote 4 days ago:
Nice to see that many of the developers/members of the team are
GNU/Linux users. I would like to see if it can run other popular
distros, like Elementary.
kiwijamo wrote 4 days ago:
Debian too. Although the fact they use Ubuntu suggests Debian
support should be a given.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
We're putting in the work ourselves to make sure the most common
distributions like Ubuntu LTS releases run smoothly. We had that in
mind as we selected key components in the system.
Edit: And it's worth noting that a couple of folks on the team are
diehard Linux users, including our software/firmware lead, and they
run Ubuntu on their Framework Laptops.
rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
With s3 sleep support for linux you will get my business :-)
base698 wrote 4 days ago:
Shut up and take my money!
nightowl_games wrote 4 days ago:
Honestly this is exactly what I want (quality, repairable, upgradable),
but I'm not all in yet. I feel like this space is extremely hard to
break into, and I'm worried about their ability to pull it off. Is
there massive capital in this corp? Will the price be really high? I'd
pay a premium for this kind of thing, but if they start crowd funding
it's gonna seem like a red flag.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
We have the funding we need to bring the product to market (an odd
downstream benefit of Oculus getting bought by Facebook), but we will
be taking pre-orders with a deposit prior to shipping to make sure
our SKU mix and production rates are matched to actual demand.
We won't be asking consumers to pay a premium for longevity, but it's
nice to hear that you'd be willing to!
samatman wrote 3 days ago:
Drive by suggestion here.
I think you should offer a first-class Linux experience with this
laptop. It's a genuinely underserved market, with a lot of overlap
for people who care about the repairability and upgradability which
are core to your offering. A market with premium mind share, as
well.
When I say first class, I mean something specific: you should spend
some of your engineering budget making a really good driver Linux
driver for your touchpad, and open source it. That would be huge.
I'm sure your hardware is up to snuff, but your control over how
good that feels in Windows is very limited.
There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the Mac for
essentially one reason, the touchpad.
Windows is dominant in laptops, but with distinct verticals, and I
struggle to figure out which one this would fit into. Cheap
semi-disposable laptop for a broke college student? Clearly this
will cost more than that. Gaming? No way you'll have enough power
and battery with that form factor. Excel ninjas who get it from
work? Why would they care about expansion and repairability?
But "I'd rather be using Linux if the experience just sucked a
little bit less" is underserved. Obviously you can't offer just
Linux, and maybe licensing shenanigans with Microsoft mean you
can't even consider this (although I really hope that's not a
factor anymore).
Anyway. Good luck, it's a cool idea.
fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
> There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the Mac for
essentially one reason, the touchpad. [1] > Obviously you can't
offer just Linux
Yes, you can: [2]
URI [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24700537
URI [2]: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14
URI [3]: https://system76.com/laptops
spijdar wrote 3 days ago:
Purism is a good example, but System76 is not -- they're not
actually designing or building hardware specifically for Linux,
but tailoring existing hardware for Linux.
The distinction is they're not trying to develop a new computer
that only runs or officially supports Linux. Instead they're
leveraging the sales volumes of these OEM/ODMs which do offer
Windows in order to keep prices in line with similarly specced
laptops.
Compare this to Purism, whose offerings are much more expensive
compared to similarly specced laptops, and because of this
unlikely to gain mass market appeal. An initiative like
Framework needs some amount of mass market appeal to make the
repairability aspect really make sense, else it'll just be
expensive and resource intensive to manufacture small
quantities of these systems.
someperson wrote 3 days ago:
Relevant to this conversation is Bill Harding's project to fund a
better touchpad driver [1] [2]. It's well worth reading his blog
posts and seeing his related GitHub project.
Definitely worth understanding his understand motivations, then
considering collaborating and/or funding him. [1]
URI [1]: https://bill.harding.blog/2018/04/12/linux-touchpad-like...
URI [2]: https://bill.harding.blog/2020/04/26/linux-touchpad-like...
bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
> you should spend some of your engineering budget making a
really good driver Linux driver for your touchpad, and open
source it
It's funny how completely random this suggestion feels (I figured
you were going to suggest a customized distro based on Ubuntu or
something), and yet I completely agree. Most everything uses
libinput these days, and a whole lot of the "feel" is baked into
the driver at compile time. Getting it right yourself (or even
just making it more configurable for users) would be an enormous
step forward.
Finn1sher wrote 3 days ago:
Totally agree!
I think there's a real market for laptops with Linux preinstalled
- if they offered 2 or 3 distros, (Pop, Manjaro, Fedora for
example) all with excellent touchpad drivers, I would snap it up.
deadmutex wrote 3 days ago:
How often will you be pushing out new releases? every 18 months?
24? etc.
Personally, I am waiting until av1 hardware decoders are more
common, and BT 5 LE Audio (so they can stream to wireless headsets
easily) is out as well.
conqrr wrote 4 days ago:
Will it be cheaper than a mac? If yes, you have my money as I can
see it being used for the next 20 years (with upgrades).
ihsw wrote 4 days ago:
Do you have plans for a Ryzen (Zen 3) CPU?
SloopJon wrote 4 days ago:
One of the repair challenges is access to old parts. The drain hose on
our three year-old washer sprung a leak. When I called a repair man,
he at first said that Samsung doesn't make that part anymore.
Fortunately, he was mistaken, but if that's something that happens for
a simple hose, imagine trying to replace the "high-end headphone amp"
expansion card on this laptop five years from now.
Even if I'm not too excited about the proprietary expansion card
system, which will last as long as the founders' attention spans, if it
gives access to standard memory and storage, that's an improvement over
the current trend.
marzell wrote 3 days ago:
Since the modules are just USB-C adapted, those parts would probably
be easy to mimic by a third party. Maybe they need to be signed or
something, hence the marketplace they allude to.
opsy2 wrote 3 days ago:
Sounds like 3rd party extension is the goal, and according to other
comments here without necessitating distribution on their
marketplace either.
99_00 wrote 3 days ago:
>if that's something that happens for a simple hose
But it didn't happen...
SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
But it has happened to many of us for other things. The camera on
my pixel 2 broke but no one sells new parts for the pixel 2 and
google doesn't support it. All you can get is poor quality second
hand and stolen parts. For a less popular product, you get nothing.
wongarsu wrote 4 days ago:
On the other hand in the laptop space I've never had problems with
part availability. With brands like Dell or Lenovo there are plenty
of new and used parts available on ebay or your trusted reseller, and
official service handbooks are easy to download.
The real value-add of the framework laptop is imho the upgrade path:
you can swap in newer components without replacing nearly everything.
Usually that's limited to just SSD and RAM, with everything else
being on one huge mainboard assembly.
rchaud wrote 3 days ago:
Is that true for the premium laptops? I worked at my school's help
desk and yes, Dell parts and service manuals were plentiful, but
usually for bulky Inspiron and Latitude budget laptops. The ones
with ugly screens, wacky trackpads and replaceable batteries.
It's been a while since I was in that world, but Dell makes some
mighty nice looking machinery these days, but it doesn't look
particularly repairable.
wongarsu wrote 3 days ago:
XPS are still very repairable. Not as nice as Latitude, but for
example replaceing the battery or upgrading RAM only requires
unscrewing the bottom (held on by about a dozen torx screws).
rchaud wrote 3 days ago:
good to know, thanks!
dvdkon wrote 3 days ago:
It actually is a problem for cheaper laptops whose exact SKUs often
don't last more than half a year, which is my primary reason for
buying "business" laptops.
acomjean wrote 4 days ago:
There used to be a pretty standard adapter card for laptops.
I had an "ethernet modem card" from ibm in that form factor that
worked well. And a scsi adapter for a zip drive I think. Its been a
while...
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card
blhack wrote 4 days ago:
It would be really cool if they had just made a laptop that
accepted PCMCIA cards, and then made a bunch of new PCMCIA cards.
wtallis wrote 4 days ago:
The more recent choice would have been ExpressCard, but that
standard was never updated beyond PCIe 2.0 x1 and USB 5Gbit/s.
But the bigger problem with both ExpressCard and PCMCIA is that
the cards are longâthose form factors date back to an era where
expansion cards needed a lot more PCB space than they do now.
ExpressCard 34 is 70/75mm long, compared to a typical client WiFi
card that's M.2 22x30mm. It's quite impractical to have
ExpressCard slots on both sides of the machine.
I don't think it would have worked well to try to make a
hot-swappable externally-facing card form factor derived from
M.2. Likewise, cutting EDSFF E1.S down to a third of the length
wouldn't leave any provision for USB or DisplayPort signals.
USB-C is clearly the best available connector choice among
current standards.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
It is definitely on us to prove that we'll provide long term support
for the modules that we're developing, but we're also opening up
documentation and reference designs for things like our Expansion
Card system. If something ever happens to us, other companies and
the community can continue to use and extend the ecosystem.
We designed the Expansion Cards in a way that it's possible to 3D
print the housings for them on a home 3D printer and get PCBs fabbed
through the normal hobby channels. We hope that folks in the
community come up with interesting card ideas and bring them out
themselves in addition to what we develop.
simonebrunozzi wrote 4 days ago:
> We designed the Expansion Cards in a way that it's possible to 3D
print the housings for them on a home 3D printer and get PCBs
fabbed through the normal hobby channels.
That's a bold and brave move. Well done.
foobarian wrote 4 days ago:
GPIO cards on a modern laptop? Sign me up!!!
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Yes! Actually, one of the first cards we built internally is a
little Arduino-compatible one with a SAMD21 microcontroller and
an external-facing 0.1" pin header for GPIO.
TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
Woooow. This has a huge market potential among hobbyists.
robocat wrote 3 days ago:
Will the expansion cards work if plugged into a USB-C port on
another laptop or desktop? (Assuming I have driver e.g. Linux
installed).
kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
Yep! Most do not require any custom drivers.
thiagocsf wrote 3 days ago:
Will your specs include metric or just imperial measurements
like you just used here?
TheSpiceIsLife wrote 3 days ago:
Fear not, modern inches are metric inches:
since the adoption of the international yard during the 1950s
and 1960s, it has been based on the metric system and defined
as exactly 25.4 mm.
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch
mtrovo wrote 3 days ago:
Wow that's actually a really cool idea
ben_ wrote 4 days ago:
I love it!
psalminen wrote 4 days ago:
From the article: "In addition to releasing new upgrades regularly,
weâre opening up the ecosystem to enable a community of partners to
build and sell compatible modules through the Framework Marketplace."
Maybe I am misinterpreting it but it sounds like its not a completely
proprietary system?
f6v wrote 4 days ago:
A marketplace for an extremely narrow market? Whoâs going to
invest their money to develop hardware for this platform? They
better do everything themselves in the beginning.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Definitely! It's on us to make the ecosystem work by building a
large enough install base for other hardware developers to see a
reason to come in. We're going to continue to develop modules
ourselves until that point, and past that point too!
cupofjoakim wrote 4 days ago:
This actually looks promising but I wonder if I'm really the target
group. While I do build custom computers every now and then i also
cherish the "completeness" of the unibody design that my MBP has. I
also wonder about the availability of parts...
Also, big up for the 3:2 screen.
hyperpl wrote 4 days ago:
If the screen is swappable I'd really like to see a lower DPI version
of 1920x1280. The Thinkpad X1C9 by comparison is 14" @ 1920x1200.
chrismorgan wrote 4 days ago:
13.5â³ 2256Ã1504, thatâs 201ppi, not too shabby, just right for
1.5Ã scaling for an effective resolution of 1504Ã1002â
.
(I like my Surface Bookâs 13.5â³ 3000Ã2000 267ppi display which
is just the right size for 2Ã scaling, yielding an effective
resolution of 1500Ã1000.)
For reference, the common 13.3â³ 1920Ã1080 display is 166ppi,
13.3â³ 1366Ã768 is 118ppi, 15.6â³ 1920Ã1080 is 141ppi, and
15.6â³ 1366Ã768 is 100ppi.
(Iâm idly curious why itâs 2256Ã1504 rather than 2250Ã1500,
which would scale to the more convenient effective resolution of
1500Ã1000 at 150%, and still 200ppi.)
leephillips wrote 3 days ago:
Resolution is marginal. It would be a step down from my 2013 Google
Chrome pixel (240 dpi), which you can get refurbished for about
$200.
coldpie wrote 4 days ago:
> Also, big up for the 3:2 screen.
Amen. Any chance I can buy one for my desktop?
vessenes wrote 4 days ago:
I always think of The Sandbenders from William Gibsonâs Idoru when I
see projects like this.
It might be worth publishing enough of the internal CAD measurements as
specs so that artists could create their own enclosures / cool addons
and be sure that they will have parts access.
Anyway, my first thought was âwill an m1 board fit in there?â so I
am looking forward to seeing your release!
holri wrote 4 days ago:
Will it run with completely free software?
The limiting factor for lasting is not hardware but required
proprietary software.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Our Embedded Controller firmware is fully open source. We're using a
proprietary BIOS solution at launch, but that is something we'd like
to fix in the future.
walterbell wrote 3 days ago:
Please consider a future option for device owners to install their
preferred vendor of open-source firmware. If the hardware and
enclosure platform gains traction, it will hopefully attract open
system firmware developers. This will require an owner-controlled
mechanism for signed-firmware key management.
whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
Are you implying theyâre going to stop you from popping Ubuntu on
it somehow?
[Edit: Thanks for all the replies citing driver blobs and proprietary
BIOS issues, totally slipped my mind that that was a concern, makes a
ton more sense now.]
marcodiego wrote 4 days ago:
He is just asking if it can reach the same level in terms of
freedom as the laptops listed here:
URI [1]: https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/laptops
whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
Ah, that makes sense, Iâd totally forgotten about proprietary
driver blobs/BIOS issues.
gillesjacobs wrote 4 days ago:
I think he is referring to proprietary firmware/driver blobs that
come with many CPUs and GPUs. Purism has focused on this issue and
provide fully FOSS hardware [1].
1.
URI [1]: https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/
holri wrote 4 days ago:
Ubuntu runs also on proprietary drivers.
If the hardware vendor stops to maintain the proprietary driver or
binary blob the hardware could become obsolete very quickly,
although it runs fine hardware wise.
My 11yr old Nokia N900 runs absolutely fine hardware wise. It also
could run a new linux kernel, but some drivers are proprietary and
can not be updated. What a waste.
sesuximo wrote 4 days ago:
Idk bro the cpu microcode from intel is closed source. How can you
live with that
ArchieMaclean wrote 4 days ago:
They may be wondering if the BIOS is FOSS.
E.g. LibreBoot [1] > Non-free BIOS/UEFI firmware often contains
backdoors, can be slow and have severe bugs. Development and
support can be abandoned at any time.
URI [1]: https://libreboot.org/
imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
This looks so interesting.
A modular laptop that looks great?
Iâm a Mac guy and this still has me hyped!
ceocoder wrote 4 days ago:
Iâve added my name to preorder list, happy to pay premium for a
laptop with high build quality and hardware. Please donât screw up
the keyboard. Please. And a fingerprint reader would be welcome
addition if possible.
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Keyboard feel was high on our list of priorities. We engaged one of
the bigger keyboard suppliers and worked with them on a custom one
with 1.5mm key travel.
We've built a fingerprint reader into the power button using a
just-released sensor that has been performing really well in our
testing so far. We're seeing False Reject Rates lower than the
typical fingerprint readers built into laptops while keeping the
right False Accept Rate.
mtm wrote 3 days ago:
Any plans to support movable keycaps? I'd love to actually have
the physical keys match my Colemak layout
bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
Agree, this would be awesome.
ndiddy wrote 4 days ago:
How is the trackpad? Does it support Windows Precision? What
material is it made out of? How does it compare to an Apple
trackpad?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
It's a Windows Precision Touchpad with a matte glass surface, and
it feels pretty good!
skavi wrote 4 days ago:
There doesnât seem to be much space left for a large battery.
Do you have any estimates on capacity?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
We integrated a 55Wh battery, which is pretty typical for
13.5-14" notebooks.
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
Will the internal layout (and thermal characteristics)
allow for a larger battery, perhaps at the expense of
ports/expansion slots?
robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
Now I'm curious if extra batteries will be possible to plug
into the modules
kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
technically possible as all 4 ports support usb-c PD, but
the modules are not big enough to support any reasonable
capacity. It is a path to connect something like a slice
battery that you could attach to the bottom however!
GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
I've never heard of a "slice battery", but I'm guessing
you mean a thin, wedge-shaped battery than would sit
underneath the laptop? If so, wouldn't rising heat from
the battery be a problem?
ndiddy wrote 4 days ago:
Thanks for the info!
ceocoder wrote 4 days ago:
Awesome!
Best of luck and please let me know if you want someone to dogfood
things as an outsider. My email is my HN username
kodah wrote 4 days ago:
As someone who swaps laptops out a lot, I'm down to get one. I'm also
the same kind of person that buys an X1 Extreme for it's ability to be
repaired. I'm also curious about price, but I'm assuming that hasn't
been decided.
That said:
> Founded in San Francisco in 2019
I'd love to see these kind of companies founded outside of this area in
the future.
bombcar wrote 4 days ago:
I can understand the strong benefits for startups starting in the Bay
Area; I would like to see more of them migrate OUT at an appropriate
time (which would be slightly before FAANG valuation in my mind).
Remote work may solve some of this, but eventually the extended
runways available at "lower altitudes" (to bend the metaphor) will
become worthwhile.
whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
Sorry, why does it matter where theyâre founded?
kinghtown wrote 4 days ago:
I dig the concept, just hope the utilization pans out.
Iâm holding out for an arm based Linux laptop which can handle
Blender without too much fan noise... I would love to get a system76
laptop but I have doubts about the build quality. But they say that
they are on tract to manufacture their own laptops this year. How does
a framework laptop compare to System76? (Let alone a Lenovo or Asus.)
Any chance you guys could make your own distro in the future and brand
it Lapdance?
baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
I have few tricks in my sleeve, but my laptop project stalled with
quarantine, and appearance of other things to spend money on.
necrotic_comp wrote 4 days ago:
I wish new laptops would follow the form factor of the old Thinkpads
instead of Macbooks. I realize that most people like trackpads and
can't stand the trackpoint, but as someone who has used one for so long
it would be fantastic if something like this existed.
That being said, this is a great project and it looks like it should be
successful - having a laptop that is built to last with interchangable
parts is a great idea and should've been done long ago.
jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
Yep. With swappable keyboards, I really hope that they consider an
alternative option with trackpoint, trackpoint mouse buttons and
full-size arrow keys, perhaps even adjacent PgUp/PgDown keys à la
ThinkPad.
akhilcacharya wrote 4 days ago:
Looks promising, but having AMD chips would be killer.
imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
Seconded!
The value that AMD has been bringing to the table lately is
shockingly good.
cromka wrote 4 days ago:
The fact that they answered a fairly ridiculous question (by
HN-standards) wether swapping Intel for AMD on the same Motherboard
is possible, but did npt address reasonable questions about their
choosing of Intel over AMD, makes me suspicious of them being in
bed with Intel somehow. It's just like with the AMD versions of
Lenovo/HP/Dell premium laptops, which are always somehow
inexplicably crippled (low-res display? why?!) compared to the
Intel configurations.
When people ask why there's so many rooting against Intel, I don't
say it's because they stagnated the market. It's specifically
because long-known practices like these.
But hopefully it's not the case here.
blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
Great. Another laptop with 1/2 arrow keys. Such a shame.
blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
I have noticed that most laptops under 14" have those 1/2 keys, but
once you go to 15" the overall weight increases a lot. The only 14"
laptop I've used with full arrow keys was the System76 Galago Pro Gen
3 (galp3).
chrismorgan wrote 4 days ago:
I would strongly urge, if going with half-height arrow keys, to make
the side arrows half height as well, rather than full height. This
helps with both finding the key cluster and using it. Consider
leaving a small gap to the left of the cluster as well, which in this
case could conveniently be done by making the keys a bit
narrowerâthey look unreasonably wide as it is. Ideally Iâd also
say shift them lower, breaking out of the rectangle and allowing
taller arrows (even â
or ¾ height would be a good improvement),
but I can imagine that may fall afoul of manufacturing
practicalities.
Another nice feature for keyboard design is small gaps between Esc
and F1, F4 and F5, F8 and F9, and F12 and whatâs to its right, as
desktop keyboards have always done; this helps fingers to blindly
find the right place. Not very many laptops do this; the main ones
Iâve noticed doing it in my recent research is ASUS ROG laptops,
which do seem to put more thought than most into these sorts of
details. In the pictures shown here, the Escape and especially Delete
keys look to be unnecessarily wide so that you could reduce their
widths a bit to provide this space perhaps without shrinking anything
else.
mettamage wrote 4 days ago:
Yea, fun fact: I like my Acer Nitro 5. I'm an Apple fan through and
through, but I also like to run Linux and Windows and haven't done
that in a while, so I bought an Acer.
I'm using my Acer now more as a dev laptop and my Mac more as a free
time laptop. What I'm noticing is that I'm enjoying the typing
experience on the Nitro 5 more, in particular because it has decent
arrows (and a numpad :) ).
mumblemumble wrote 4 days ago:
The hjkl keys look full size to me.
ducks
wp381640 wrote 4 days ago:
a refined man, could have said wasd
mumblemumble wrote 4 days ago:
just be glad I didn't say dhtn.
imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
You are more brave than I
blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
Haha. I have adapted to that too, but why even bother with 1/2 keys
then. The look like an afterthought.
mumblemumble wrote 3 days ago:
It's probably difficult to build a laptop with mass market appeal
if it's only trying to sell to vi people.
ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
I feel you. IMHO Lenovo still makes the best laptop keybaord layouts
for coding, typing and gaming. Check out their Legion series.
blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
I agree. If I ever get a new machine it will be a Lenovo. The build
quality is amazing.
adenozine wrote 4 days ago:
No information about pricing?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
Framework founder here. We'll be announcing pricing shortly before
we open pre-orders this spring. We won't be asking consumers to pay
a premium for longevity, and will be setting pricing to be comparable
to other popular notebooks using the same silicon.
f6v wrote 4 days ago:
So in other words itâs going to be 2k for i7, 16 Gb RAM, and 512
Gb SSD?
ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
What about shipping and deliveries to regions other than US, like
EU for example?
How will your volumes look during this silicon shortage?
nrp wrote 4 days ago:
We're shipping in the US and Canada this summer and opening up
additional countries in Europe and Asia before the end of the
year. In the future, we will launch modules and products
worldwide closer to the same date, but we're pacing ourselves on
inventory on the first launch.
We placed our forecasts and risk buys on most chips early in
anticipation of the silicon crunch that is coming this year. So
far, we don't see anything that puts us at risk, short of there
being massive unexpected upside on consumer demand (a good
problem to have!).
lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
Finally! This is amazing what you do! I like the philosophy and
share values! This is the machine I wish to have and this is
the machine I was dreaming to help making. Is there any way one
can help/contribute/join? I have knowledge in sw-dev/ hw /
design and speak 4 languages. May be there is a way to help
distribute them at least?
nrp wrote 3 days ago:
Thanks! We're continuing to grow the team, and have a bunch
of roles open currently:
URI [1]: https://jobs.lever.co/framework
sturza wrote 4 days ago:
does not matter
ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
In what way?
sturza wrote 4 days ago:
it will be expensive because it liiks like the first teuly
modular laptop. it will get cheaper if it has a big enough
market. so in a long enough time frame it does not matter
SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
Its not the first. We have seen modular designs over and over
again. Here is a very similar idea from 2016 [1] We have also
seen multiple failed attempts at modular phones.
Ultimately, the problem with repair is not about making it easy
enough for grandma to swap out a part. Its about making sure
repair stores have the ability to source replacement parts.
Its pretty easy to do almost any repair if you have the tools
and parts but there is no way you are finding a new IC that
fried on your 5 year old laptop.
URI [1]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
Founder in sister thread explicitly says they arenât planning
on charging a premium for longevity. Besides, even at Apple
level prices, a perpetually upgradable system essentially pays
for itself eventually.
tluyben2 wrote 4 days ago:
I couldn't see it from the introduction, but is it differently
modular than old Lenovo's? Like the X220 which I use as daily
driver? I guess the flexible ports layout is different but the
X220 has enough anyway.
imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
It does when payday rolls around ;)
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