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                                                             on Gopher (inofficial)
   URI Visit Hacker News on the Web
       
       
       COMMENT PAGE FOR:
   URI   The Framework Laptop
       
       
        t0r0nat0r wrote 1 day ago:
        This won’t fly...
       
        axiolite wrote 1 day ago:
        This is the wrong way to go.
        
        Put together a battery, monitor, keyboard and pointer in a foldable
        package, with an open space to drop-in and connect one of the many mini
        PCs out there.    The "laptop" part could last for decades, while the
        customer just swaps-out the mini PC inside it every couple years to
        upgrade.
       
        superinterwebs wrote 2 days ago:
        how about a microphone hardware switch?
       
        andix wrote 2 days ago:
        I don't see the point.
        
        I get myself a new ThinkPad every 3-6 years. The devices are completely
        repairable, every part can be exchanged. After the warranty period
        though, a lot of repairs don't make sense any more.
        
        After my usage period of a few years, nearly every part of the device
        is worn out. The case is scratched and sometimes broken. The screen
        too. The battery (probably the 2nd or 3rd) reached the end of its life.
        The logic board including CPU and GPU is not strong enough any more for
        the newest software. I don't want to continue using the SSD, because
        the wear level went up, and I don't want to lose my data.
        
        Normally I give away the device as a present, for some one who has less
        demands in a laptop than I do. I probably could also sell it to a
        refurbishment company.
        
        So what would be the benefit with that laptop?
       
        Epskampie wrote 2 days ago:
        Please consider making the left and right arrow keys half-height, so
        you can easily feel them out by hand. Macbook recently made this change
        with good reason. I’ve got the older model, and it’s hell if
        you’re used to a standard keyboard.
       
        aagha wrote 2 days ago:
        Really interesting, but I wish the decision had been to go down the
        path of using AMD Ryzen rather than Intel: Cheaper, faster, and better
        battery life.
       
        oblio wrote 2 days ago:
        To people hoping this will succeed (which I would very much like it to,
        personally), think about this:
        
        1. Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets? Do you know
        regular, passive folks (so not the standard HN overachiever) doing
        this? I don't know anyone doing this.
        
        2. Do you repair your home appliances? Same thing, I don't really know
        anyone doing this.
        
        Of course, this being the internet, someone will reply "yes, I do
        this", but my reply to that: "of course someone does it, but it's not a
        real market, there isn't any money in this".
        
        Poor people tend to repair their stuff, well off or rich people don't
        do it because it's a negative status symbol. And poor people can't
        afford expensive stuff, which this will probably be. Poor people can't
        afford high up-front costs, even though TCO might be awesome.
       
          e12e wrote 2 days ago:
          > Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets?
          
          Socks, generally no - by the time they've got holes, they're usually
          overall worn down anyway.
          
          I don't generally patch t-shirts or boxers (same reason), but I do
          sew worn seams, and patch pants, sweaters and jackets. I don't
          personally replaces zippers, but there's a local shop that does.
          
          For eg gortex outwear, it's possible to fix minor holes (like from
          sparks from a bonfire) with repair tape.
       
          vb6sp6 wrote 2 days ago:
          Anecdotal but whatever: I know a lot of people who try and fix their
          own things. The most prolific fixer I know is quite well off
       
          salusinarduis wrote 2 days ago:
          I don't patch my clothing but I absolutely do repair appliances using
          guides I find on Youtube and blogs. I've also always been a custom
          parts pc guy, so it appeals to me, and I think there are tons of
          people like me based on Reddit's communities for this stuff.
       
        bfrog wrote 2 days ago:
        Why not have a pointer nib, its the reason I've continued to use ibm
        and now lenovo laptops. Trackpads are RSI inducing.
       
        werber wrote 3 days ago:
        I looked at this yesterday and loved the slide out adapters, then last
        night I had a dream my macbook had them. Haven't loved a concept so
        much it crept into my dreams via HN ever.
       
        kunalpowar1203 wrote 3 days ago:
        My naive question is "how do you guys manage profitability? and hence
        survive as a company". That's the one point that I can't explain to
        someone when I rant about companies making devices that cannot be
        repaired and would last an average 3 years.
       
          gohbgl wrote 3 days ago:
          Well, in the tech space this is very easy to explain: They survive by
          selling new devices. People will eventually buy new laptops to get
          access to faster hardware.
       
        edpichler wrote 3 days ago:
        My dream is to have this one but running Mac OS.
        Or a Macbook having this upgradeable features, where I know it will not
        happen soon as it's against the planned obsolesce of the industry.
       
        foft wrote 3 days ago:
        I'd be keen to make an FPGA based custom cpu board to go in, presuming
        they release port pinouts, timings and signalling details. This could
        be used for hardware laptop versions of legacy computers - Amiga, ST,
        Atari 800XL etc. Particularly if there is a slot for custom external
        ports to be exposed.
       
        parski wrote 3 days ago:
        I love that it's repairable and upgradeable but that Intel chip has to
        go.
       
        wiz21c wrote 3 days ago:
        FTA :
        
        > Most consumer electronics devices are disposable one-offs by design.
        The single best way to reduce the environmental impact of electronics
        is to make them last longer.
        
        Yes. And I really don't see why a framework PC can help with that. If
        you want to make them last longer, then make hard drive that last
        longer, motherboards that last longer, etc. Also, make sure the user
        needs stay the same for longer (for example, as a Linux user, my needs
        have been fullfilled by my PC for about 12 years now, I just added a
        bit more RAM (4 gigs) and a new low cost gfx card; notice that
        upgrading my Debian never resulted in more hardware needs)
        
        > In addition to enabling longevity, we’re focused on improving
        sustainability across the life of our products.
        
        Just don't produce them. It'd be more helpful if those brains would
        help big companies to do things better. No, instead, they think they're
        smarter, and that being smarter, somehow, translate into money making.
        
        > The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled (PCR)
        aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic.
        
        Count how many grams that is. Compare that to a car, which you change
        about as often as a mobile phone or laptop.
        
        > Our packaging is fully recyclable with no single-use plastics,
        
        And who's going to take care of those plastic. Me ? Just don't use
        plastic (and if you're so smart, then figure out a way to not need
        plastic in packaging)
        
        > and all of our product shipments are carbon offset.
        
        Yeah, and what about the other part of the iceberg, ie, the carbon
        produced while producing your laptops ?
        
        I'm all for ecology, reuse, etc. But at some point, if you're smart,
        you must realize that all of that is pixie powder.
        
        As I said, I'd much prefer :
        
        - if hardware producer would guarantee a 20 years+ longevity 
        - would reduce the number of form factors (so we can have less
        production lines)
        - would optimize for energy consumption (hey, my washing machine comes
        with a nice card explaining how much energy/water it consumes)
        - would create less market segments. We don't need a new CPU model
        every year. Look, my kid changes its game console (not exactly
        ecological either) every 5 years, so it's perfectly doable.
        - OS producer would make sure OS upgrade doesn't require hardware
        upgrade
        
        All of that is way more political than technological.
       
        mjgs wrote 3 days ago:
        I’m definitely down with laptops that have parts that are fully
        replaceable. It’s not something you really think about until it’s
        too late, and as such can really land you in some serious issues
        depending on where you are located in the world.
        
        On a related note, why is it that Linux desktop hardware compatibility
        is such a hit or miss affair?
        
        I would have thought that given the ethos of the platform and the sheer
        number of people using Linux worldwide this could be a solvable
        problem.
        
        I read about VLCs 20 birthday recently and one of the things that made
        it such an amazing piece of software was that it came bundled with
        every single codec imaginable. It was revolutionary at the time that it
        just played literally every single video file you had in your computer.
        My point is, that it is possible.
        
        If there was a website a bit like caniuse.com, that listed every Linux
        distro and test results with various hardware. People could register to
        be ‘drafted’ to test new releases, and there could also be
        associated discussion forums for workarounds etc.
        
        Even if it was just for laptop hardware, it would be amazing. Not
        knowing if an expensive purchased laptop will work or not is such a big
        barrier to entry.
       
        ramino wrote 3 days ago:
        Finally! I hope this company will be insanely successful. We need more
        companies like this focusing on repairability.
       
        john4532452 wrote 3 days ago:
        This is really cool. What does 1.5mm keyboard mean ? Does it mean 15mm,
        because 1.5 mm is too small to feel at the fingers.
       
        coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
        I think the best comment is this in Ars:
        
        "The reason stuff like this doesn't succeed isn't because you can't do
        it, it's because few people are willing to pay for the increased costs
        or other tradeoffs to get something
        repairable/configurable/upgradeable."
        
        Which is a same, but it is what it is...
       
        rasengan0 wrote 3 days ago:
        It's 2021 and I can't believe we have to recycle perfectly good laptops
        because of swollen batteries or other replaceable components not easily
        serviceable. That was not the case for my 1983 Apple //e. And now
        Chromebooks EOL, sealed Macbooks, the next best Surface? Computers have
        become appliances for the landfill after data extraction from the
        platforms. I hope frame.work marketplace thrives, consumers need
        freedom from the tyranny of convenience. 50 million metric tonnes of
        e-waste and going [1] We need a different mindset.
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.ft.com/content/26e1aa74-2261-11ea-92da-f0c92e957a9...
       
        sriku wrote 3 days ago:
        The spec says "Intel Xe Graphics". Any more details on this GPU? Is it
        this one - [1] ?
        
   URI  [1]: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/211013/in...
       
          jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
          They say Intel 11th Gen CPUs, so the particular one will likely be
          the one that ships with your pick of Tiger Lake SKU. The Xe MAX card
          is useful for particular niche cases, such as encoding videos with
          good power efficiency, but because it's no more powerful than the
          top-range built-in Tiger Lake iGPU, there would be little point in
          putting it in most laptops.
       
        cafxx wrote 3 days ago:
        Since we have the designers lurking in the thread, I may venture to ask
        something I have been wondering for a while: would it be possible to
        use the lid (back of the screen) as an additional radiating surface to
        improve thermal dissipation of the internal components (CPU, GPU, ...)?
        Or is it an intractable mechanical problem?
       
        perlpimp wrote 3 days ago:
        man if you'd only squeeze mech keyboard in this shell or a little
        thicker.
       
        dudeinjapan wrote 3 days ago:
        I love the concept. Finally someone gets what matters in a laptop.
        Other companies have made similar products (I have an ultralight
        Samsung that I love) but they always seem to lose interest and the next
        year's model comes out bloated and heavier.
       
        msie wrote 3 days ago:
        It’s too bad it doesn’t have buttons for mouse clicks. I can’t do
        precise mousing when the touch pad is also the mouse button. Too bad so
        many laptops do this.
       
        VectorLock wrote 3 days ago:
        I'll be interested when I can click on "Buy" and it has a price. 
        Otherwise, I would be very interested.
       
        freakynit wrote 3 days ago:
        Just add a GPU please. A whole community of people buy windows laptops
        just so that they can game on it. For work, Mac's are still best
        choice.
        
        But hats off to the initiative. Wee needed this.
       
          jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
          A laptop in this form factor won't be great for gaming even if you
          put a dedicated GPU inside, there's not enough room for cooling and
          especially not when replaceable components take up more space. For
          half-decent laptop gaming, you either want a giant beast or an eGPU
          (generally via Thunderbolt).
       
        eyelidlessness wrote 3 days ago:
        @dang
        
        > Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're working on
        it)
        
        I have a very meta interest in the tech/design/implementation behind
        HN. I've built a dark mode theme for the site because you asked the
        community to fill that gap. I'm wondering if whatever work goes into
        this perf improvement might be something y'all could talk about when
        it's ready? I'd love to know more about what's behind the incredibly
        1999 frontend, and how it keeps up with the huge volume it gets.
       
        apricot wrote 3 days ago:
        Not a terribly important question in the grand scheme of things, but
        what's the rationale behind making the \ key and the Enter key touch
        each other? I've seen it on other keyboards as well and cannot imagine
        what's gained by doing it.
       
          nfw2 wrote 3 days ago:
          The purpose of this feature is to ward off those of us with design
          OCD.  We are the most annoying users to support
       
          ali-tny wrote 3 days ago:
          Perhaps it's to make things (slightly) easier for people used to ISO
          layout keyboards? You could set both touching keys to be enter, and
          not have to relearn muscle memory - kind of, because you'd still have
          a weirdly long lower-enter compared to what you were used to.
       
        jrmski wrote 3 days ago:
        The year of the linux laptop?
       
        aasasd wrote 3 days ago:
        > Our Expansion Card system makes adapters a thing of the past, letting
        you choose exactly the ports you want and which side of the notebook
        you want them on
        
        PC Card, is that you? Long time no see.
       
        Ayesh wrote 3 days ago:
        I upgraded my five year used laptop just last month, and this would
        have been an ideal one.
        
        However, lack of an AMD CPU is a kind of deal breaker for me, even if
        it means I wouldn't get USB 4.
       
        rStar wrote 3 days ago:
        sign. me. up. especially if they go core boot or similar.
       
        agnosticmantis wrote 3 days ago:
        “At Framework, we believe the time has come for consumer electronics
        products that are designed to last.”
        
        Is this another way of saying Moore’s law is dead?
       
          sangnoir wrote 3 days ago:
          I think it's another way of saying "We're bringing back non-soldered
          RAM/storage and standard slots and not chasing after thinness for
          thinness sake".
       
        bfrog wrote 3 days ago:
        No pointer nib, no buy.
       
        ibraheemdev wrote 3 days ago:
        Just curious, why Intel over AMD? AMD has been dominating the CPU
        market lately in price for performance.
       
          Stevvo wrote 3 days ago:
          AMD's competitive mobile chips are bit different; higher TDP, higher
          core counts. Not ideal for a thin and light machine.
       
            ben-schaaf wrote 3 days ago:
            This is simply false. AMD has recently been ahead in performance/W
            leading to lower TDP while also being faster than Intel. Mobile AMD
            chips can be configured down to 10W even with 8c/16t.
       
            ibraheemdev wrote 3 days ago:
            I thought the 4000U series was supposed to be more efficient than
            Intel but still provide higher core counts?
       
        0xbadcafebee wrote 3 days ago:
        I use a 5 year old IdeaPad 510S with a Core i7 and SSD, and I have no
        reason to replace it yet. I did upgrade the single 8GB stick to 16GB
        just for the heck of it. But I can't imagine needing a new one for
        another few years at least, it feels plenty fast (and I'm the nutter
        with 80+ tabs open)
       
        pbronez wrote 3 days ago:
        I would love to see an e-ink display upgrade for this!
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          We'd love to see that too!  The Dasung 13.3" is actually sized just
          about right to be able to mod into our lid assembly.  It's probably
          not a thing that we'll do ourselves, but it would be great to see
          someone try it.
       
        King-Aaron wrote 3 days ago:
        Looks nice from the images, but personally I'd like to see those port
        adaptors house a combination of multiple sockets, not just one per
        module. That's going to be a PITA to keep swapping them out.
        
        Also the thermal management doesn't look amazing, but I guess they
        aren't looking to have big GPUs in them etc.
        
        I really like the idea though, hopefully these guys do well from it!
       
        soheil wrote 3 days ago:
        If I have to install Ubuntu Desktop or god forbid Windows to use your
        laptop you already lost me. Why doesn’t someone try to tackle the
        operating system problem first? I literally don’t care about the
        physical laptop as much as the software running on it. Also everyone
        always says hardware is hard so why not focus on a software solution
        for existing laptops? If there was an operating system half as good as
        Apple’s I’d never buy a MacBook again.
       
        knz_ wrote 3 days ago:
        As cool as this is, it's a DOA product with no real market outside
        super savvy consumers. Uninformed consumers already buy the cheapest
        laptops they can find on Amazon or in the store.
        
        If repairability is super important to someone, what incentive is there
        to buy this over a used thinkpad? You can get skylake thinkpads for
        less than $200 on ebay - replacement batteries and displays cost less
        than $100.
       
          eightails wrote 3 days ago:
          I really hope you're wrong and this device achieves success, but you
          may well be right honestly.
          
          I suspect they'll have to charge premium prices, but that might be
          justifiable even considering the availability of cheap Thinkpads.
          
          As good as $200 Thinkpads are, they are old devices, with dim, low
          res screens, old processors, poor battery life, relatively thick and
          heavy chassis, old ports, old wifi/bluetooth etc. Again, perfectly
          functional for many people, but I think there are legitimate reasons
          to want a newer device.
          
          Maybe there's enough of a niche market there, who knows.
       
        dang wrote 3 days ago:
        Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're working on
        it), so to see the rest of the comments you need to click More at the
        bottom of the page, or like this: [1] [2] Apologies for the annoying
        repetition. It will eventually go away.
        
   URI  [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=2
   URI  [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=3
       
        mpd wrote 3 days ago:
        13 inches simply isn't enough for what I need. I'd consider this today
        if I could get a 15 inch screen.
       
        spion wrote 3 days ago:
        2256x1504 resolution
        
        Finally, someone that knows about the sweet spot between fuzzy looking
        FHD and inevitably slow 4K. I'd buy this laptop just for that bit of
        (nowadays rare) common-sense thinking.
        
        Webcam is just icing on the cake.
        
        Hope the keyboard is more similar to a Thinkpad rather than a Macbook.
        Even if not, I'm sure that will become an option soon if the project is
        a success
       
        jascii wrote 3 days ago:
        They claim "100% Yours", does that mean they managed to do away with
        the Intel Management Engine? I somehow doubt it...
        
        For the rest I see a lot of proprietary modules. I somehow can't help
        but be a bit sceptical. It smells like proprietary lock-in sold as
        "freedom". I think I'll keep waiting till Pine64 comes out with a RiscV
        based PineBook Pro.
       
        alfor wrote 3 days ago:
        It’s funny that the design is basically a macbook clone.
        Apple is way ahead with the M1, they will get rid of cooling, get
        massively better battery life and better performance.
        
        But I am angry too at Apple for their high price and upgrade looked
        systems.
       
        andrewrothman wrote 3 days ago:
        Looks great. I'd love something like this. I assume it charges over
        USB-C? Any chance we can get a video of the laptop in-use, and maybe a
        few shots of it next to other popular laptops?
        
        Great design/hardware. Specifically the high res 3:2 display, camera
        privacy guard, and the weight. And the repairability / upgradability is
        awesome.
       
        Causality1 wrote 3 days ago:
        How about an option for actual damn buttons on my touchpad so I can
        tell where right click is?
       
        gohbgl wrote 3 days ago:
        I like the idea, but I will 100% not buy it for these reasons (most
        important first):
        1. Bad keyboard layout: Small arrow keys, lack of dedicated home/end
        and page up/down.
        2. Screen is too small. I need at least 15.6 inch.
        3. Replaceable ports are a gimmick. They waste space. Just put the
        ports there directly.
        4. Intel CPU.
       
        ripvanwinkle wrote 3 days ago:
        Love what you are building and rooting for this. I've been waiting for
        something like this for atleast 10 years
       
        lifeisstillgood wrote 3 days ago:
        This is a little off-topic, but it makes me proud that HN can have two
        major IPOs (one coinbase!) on the front page, but the top story is a
        damn-cool laptop we all want to tinker with.
        
        We have not been subsumed by The Man yet :-)
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          We were pleasantly surprised too!  It's great to see the interest,
          and we can't want to get it out there.
       
        The_rationalist wrote 3 days ago:
        Note that while such projects are very promising, you can already get
        many customizations at buying time for regular laptops if you buy them
        on platforms such as [1] It allowed to change the RAM & Disk but more
        customization are possible
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.hidevolution.com
       
        rock_artist wrote 3 days ago:
        It’s really refreshing initiative in the laptop market.
        But how are those planned to be distributed outside the us?
        
        Will they use local distributors like other companies?
        
        Are they expect to have international warranty?
       
        jhatemyjob wrote 3 days ago:
        How does this have 1400 upvotes. It's literally just a landing page for
        an unshipped laptop
       
        xtat wrote 3 days ago:
        It's cool but the MNT reform goes out of its way to be way more open.
        
   URI  [1]: https://twitter.com/mntmn/status/1365060706723393536
       
        jeromenerf wrote 3 days ago:
        Nice project, even though I only buy second hand thinkpad.
        
        I would be more interested in a more innovative approach regarding the
        keyboard than the ports. This was solved with usb3 for me.
       
        throwawayX1 wrote 3 days ago:
        The only thing I don't love about this is that it's Intel and not Ryzen
        5000.
        
        But if the promises hold true, this will definitely be my next laptop.
       
        maxharris wrote 3 days ago:
        One of the few things I like about my 13" MacBook Pro is that it isn't
        wedge-shaped, and the exterior design minimizes the number of lines and
        shapes a user sees from the outside. The chassis used in the Framework
        laptop is busy in comparison. I hope they decide to simplify the
        external design - this one is too busy, so I won't buy it.
        
        I don't like the way Apple is so user- and programmer-hostile, so the
        Framework laptop does have that going for it. I'm interested in this
        concept!
       
        wolfsayswof wrote 3 days ago:
        I'm just gonna say it. The design looks like a hard copy of the Macbook
        Air.
       
          whywhywhywhy wrote 3 days ago:
          Which honestly seems to undersell the machine, you make something so
          unique then just made it look like the problem its trying to solve.
          
          Hope the design team have a little more bravery in future
       
        technojunkie wrote 3 days ago:
        If this gets industry-leading battery power, it sounds like an
        excellent option. Would also be fascinating to see a wrap-around screen
        someday :)
        
        Only one major request: reconsider the arrow keys to match the current
        generation MacBook Pro. That space above the left and right arrow keys
        is priceless!
       
        IshKebab wrote 3 days ago:
        > We’re here to prove that designing products to last doesn’t
        require sacrificing performance, quality, or style.
        
        Mmm conspicuous omission of price. Still, the end of Moore's law does
        make this sort of product make more sense.
       
        throwaway69123 wrote 3 days ago:
        These things never work because consumers care more about brands than
        rights
       
          SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
          Also these things tend to work worse than the branded stuff, fail
          faster, and then the project vanishes after a few years so you never
          get to upgrade it anyway.
       
          whywhywhywhy wrote 3 days ago:
          The job of their marketing team is to convince them to care
       
        zafiro17 wrote 3 days ago:
        Hey wow, I love this idea, this design philosophy, and this commitment
        to reuse.  It occurs to me it may also solve another complaint I've
        always had with laptops, that you have to find the machine whose
        screen, trackpad, keyboard, weight, etc. ALL match your wishlist (with
        a desktop you buy the display you want, the external keyboard you want,
        the external mouse/trackball you want).  This device lends itself to
        customization, almost like an ecosystem: hopefully some day they will
        offer a Dvorak, Workman, and Colemak keyboard variant, or similar
        customizations.  Better yet, open it up to niche customized hardware
        manufacturers and make it a market.  Suddenly it becomes the substrate
        for an ecosystem of customized components.  I love this idea.  (For
        reference, my current approach to hardware reuse is to sytematically
        only buy used laptops. I save a ton of money too).
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          We do plan to offer Dvorak, Workman, and Colemak keyboards.  In a
          normal laptop, it would never really be feasible to do this because
          you'd be sitting on a lot of really niche, expensive inventory.  In
          our case, the input assembly is one of the configurable items in the
          Framework Laptop DIY Edition, so we only have to stock the variants
          of that module, rather than full laptops.
          
          This lets us cover languages and layouts that have historically been
          missing from notebooks.
       
        albertzeyer wrote 3 days ago:
        I would love a 15" (or larger) version of such a laptop. I hope this
        comes soon.
        
        Also some other options for CPU and GPU would be nice. (AMD CPU. Maybe
        Nvidia GPU for CUDA. Or maybe even some ARM CPU?)
        
        How long does the battery last in this?
        
        Will this be available in Europe? (Or rather when?)
       
        Hasz wrote 3 days ago:
        Look at the older Lenovo workstation laptops for an example of
        something similar.
        
        I have a P50 -- a 3840x2160 15" screen, 32GB of RAM, Xeon E3-1505M v5 @
        2.8GHz, and a removable battery. It also comes with space (easily
        accessible!) for extra drives, ram slots, etc. Even with the overkill
        Xeon CPU, I still get ~5hours of battery life on windows under moderate
        load.
        
        Most importantly, the service manual is a thing of beauty, and has
        detailed instructions for almost any replacement. This is a laptop
        designed to be used, upgraded, and used again.
       
        kvark wrote 3 days ago:
        Looks like a great machine! I wish it had Ryzen 5000 option instead of
        Intel.
       
        Dig1t wrote 3 days ago:
        Remember that one time when someone tried to do this with mobile phones
        and then Google bought it and killed it? [1] I really hope this is
        actually successful.
        
        I'd love a version with a larger screen as well.
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.onearmy.earth//project/phonebloks
       
        Animats wrote 3 days ago:
        Shipping Summer 2021
        
        Does it actually exist?
       
        grawp wrote 3 days ago:
        Wake me up when/if they do AMD version with verified ECC support.
       
        tommica wrote 3 days ago:
        I really hope this is successful, and that I could afford one of those
        some day, even as a pre-owned!
       
        ksec wrote 3 days ago:
        >Designed for the future of work with a 13.5” 3:2 screen
        
        Yes 3:2! Really wish Apple took this direction. But instead it was the
        PC industry moving towards it. For Desktop or Laptops that no longer
        has Gaming or Media consumption as their priorities, 3:2 is just much
        better for productivity.
       
          bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
          I must be the only person on HN who really likes 16:9. Actually I'd
          go further and do 2:1 if I could.
          
          The reason is that the vast majority of my work is done with two
          windows open, side by side. A wider aspect ratio gives you a much
          better picture of what's happening in both, especially if one of them
          is a web browser (so many sites assume a pretty large screen width
          these days). The fact that it works much better with media (e.g.
          watching or editing film footage) is just a bonus.
       
        giberson wrote 3 days ago:
        I like the idea of a repairable/upgradable/modular laptop. However, to
        really buy in to the idea I want more than a promise of future
        upgradability. I'd really like to see a company roadmap that shows
        expected future dates of upgrade releases.
        
        Show me if you're expecting to put out new CPU upgrade parts every 1,
        2, 3 or 5 years.
        
        Show me what type/generation of graphic card is available and your
        expectation of how far behind graphic card modules will lag behind
        current gen cards, 1,3,5,10 years?
        
        Show me how long I'll expect to have to wait to double my storage, or
        ram.
        
        And most of all, what are the target price points of current and future
        upgrades.
       
          metalliqaz wrote 3 days ago:
          roadmaps are meaningless.  talk is cheap.  Just ask anyone who has
          ever bought into a "live service" video game, or countless other
          ambitious but later abandoned products.
          
          Here's what I can say for sure.  The options for future upgrades will
          be correlated with the sales figures of the base laptop.
       
        trilinearnz wrote 3 days ago:
        Cool idea. Reminds me a lot of the earlier Thinkpads which had
        legendary swappability of components between models. For example, it
        was trivial for me to swap the superior keyboard on my T60 for the one
        on my T500.
        
        Not seeing anything about the ability to swap out the display,
        however... You seem to lose a bit of flexibility when embracing the
        unibody chassis.
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          The display is held in with fasteners behind the magnetic attach
          bezel.
       
        cdnsteve wrote 3 days ago:
        Exciting news on my bday, I signed up to be notified when this
        launches. I view this as progress in the right to repair vs youknowwho
        and I'd like to give this product a real shot. Bring on change and give
        the consumer options to customize, nice work.
       
        conductr wrote 3 days ago:
        My current work laptop has ports that get blocked when docked. Don’t
        do that
       
        jrmann100 wrote 3 days ago:
        This looks like a fantastic, albeit potentially costly, product, and
        I'm excited to see where it goes. For those of us who are happy with
        our current laptops but are still excited by the customizability of the
        Expansion Card system, are you considering creating USB-C hubs designed
        to work with the modules? The Cards obviously already adapt to USB-C
        but it'd be nice to have a dedicated hub to stack them and save space.
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          A controller just became available that makes this more doable.  It
          is something we're exploring to broaden the usability of the
          Expansion Cards.
       
        staunch wrote 3 days ago:
        This is a great example of a problem where Apple has placed their own
        financial interests above their users.
        
        They could make their computers and phones highly upgradeable and
        repairable, they're brilliant at these kinds of engineering challenges,
        but they choose not to because they would (presumably) not make as much
        money as they currently do.
        
        But that leaves an opportunity for others to come along, like this
        company, and serve the market better than Apple.
        
        I hope this company succeeds at least enough to force Apple's hand, in
        the way Tesla forced automakers to move to EVs.
       
        twobitshifter wrote 3 days ago:
        I love the idea. My suggestion: To make the laptop “you” as the
        site says, you need to make the laptop outwardly expressive. Nothing is
        less unique than a apple logo on the lid.  Zune did an amazing job some
        time ago with custom engraving artist designs and patterns on the back
        of their MP3 players.  Maybe Framework could do something similar?
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          The bezel around the display is magnetic-attach and we'll be offering
          a range of colors for it.
       
        auggierose wrote 3 days ago:
        No powerful GPU seems to be planned, though.
       
        sevsco wrote 3 days ago:
        They should send a model to Louis Rossman. He’s a MacBook repair guy
        who’s big on Right to Repair, and has a sizable audience on YouTube.
       
        EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote 3 days ago:
        How many dongles can one install simultaneously? I see only 2 in the
        video. Are there more on the other side?
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          Four Expansion Cards, two on each side.
       
        jakry wrote 3 days ago:
        Is the Laptop also available with a AMD ryzen CPU?
       
          enchiridion wrote 3 days ago:
          Yep, this is my question too. If not is the CPU swapable?
          
          Especially given that this product appeals to the PC builder types,
          it really should support AMD.
       
            tkinom wrote 3 days ago:
            Intel to AMD CPU swap is impossible.
            
            They definitively should design it to support motherboard swapping.
            
            Or maybe even swap to ARM base motherboard when/if 8,16,32 cores
            ARM base CPU with 3-15watts is available and ready.
       
              nrp wrote 3 days ago:
              We've designed the Framework Laptop for end-user motherboard
              swaps from CPU platform to CPU platform.  We minimized the cost
              of that move by keeping the memory, storage, and WiFi socketed.
       
        gravyboat wrote 3 days ago:
        Seems neat but using Intel chips over AMD is an immediate deal breaker
        for me.
       
        max_ wrote 3 days ago:
        How much would this thing cost? Can it run an RTX GPU?
       
        jhu247 wrote 3 days ago:
        Love seeing a startup focused on hardware. Skeptical about the success
        but bravo to their efforts.
       
        jokoon wrote 3 days ago:
        I hope it tries to follow a minimum of high standard for dust, humidity
        and heat, a little like thinkpads do.
        
        There are military standards for this, and I think it helps a lot to
        have a laptop that is durable.
       
        awill wrote 3 days ago:
        This all sounds great, but I suspect this will be VERY expensive.
       
        unicornporn wrote 3 days ago:
        Will it be available in the EU or US only? Buying from the US not an
        alternative considering toll fees, VAT etc.
       
        essence_sentry wrote 3 days ago:
        I love it guys, please take my money!
       
        ehnto wrote 3 days ago:
        A big part of reparability is how readily available parts are. Using
        commodity parts available to anyone really helps with this, and so
        hopefully for parts like the battery module and the screen, they are
        off the shelf items. It sounds like the team at Framework have that in
        mind, so I am hopeful.
        
        Also, this is a very small niche, but it would be rad if down the line
        they came out with a ruggedized chassis upgrade. A repairable laptop
        that can be used in the field? That would be a dream.
       
        alkonaut wrote 3 days ago:
        I’d buy a well built machine    even if it was 3x as thick and 3x as
        heavy as other laptops, with 1/3 the battery life. I just need a
        movable machine, not an actual “laptop”. Many of us from home with
        our machines plugged to the wall 98% of the time, yet the thermal and
        power design is for a thin battery powered device. I want a 150W laptop
        with a 120mm fan.
       
        dheera wrote 3 days ago:
        > 2256x1504 resolution
        
        This seems like a dealbreaker for me. No 2160p option?
       
        ezzato wrote 3 days ago:
        Are the privacy switches hardware or software based?
       
        umutseven92 wrote 3 days ago:
        If this works nicely with Linux I'll buy it day one.
       
        gwbas1c wrote 3 days ago:
        I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the hardware.
        
        If/when I return to Windows, a Framework laptop is definitely
        appealing. I'd rather change the ports than deal with a handful of
        dongles and adaptors.
        
        One thing to consider:
        
        I really want to try a laptop that comes with a good, well-supported
        Linux installation. (I haven't tried desktop Linux since the early
        2000s.) I'm less concerned about "distro of my choice," because I
        really just want something that works well out of the box and is easy
        to learn.
       
          smoldesu wrote 3 days ago:
          Side note, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised with how far Linux
          has come. I recently returned to it for the first time in a decade,
          and it's pretty remarkable how mature the operating system is. Almost
          all of my "essential" apps have native versions (eg. Matrix, Spotify,
          Discord, Steam) and the ones that don't can be pretty easily emulated
          through Wine. It only took 2 weeks of playing around with KDE on my
          Macbook before I put it on my desktop as well. 2 months later, I'm
          still loving the decision.
       
            gwbas1c wrote 3 days ago:
            Which distro?
       
              neop1x wrote 3 days ago:
              I have been happily using KDE on Arch Linux for many years as
              well.
              
              Just two times I saw what seemed to be an xorg glitch which
              required powering off and on the display output via xrandr over
              SSH.
              
              And MTP (android file transfer) implementation under KDE is not
              ideal, it sometimes freezes or behaves weirdly. ADB CLI helps in
              such cases, though.
              
              Other than that it's a pretty solid and usable system.
              
              If you decide to use Linux, make sure your HW is well supported.
              For example AMD seems to be better choice over nVidia or even
              Intel.
       
              xur17 wrote 3 days ago:
              I've been using Ubuntu for years now, and honestly it's pretty
              set and forget at this point. Main caveat is that you should do a
              little bit of research beforehand to ensure it will work well. It
              still has some quirks at time, but honestly my Macbook I used at
              my last job had just as many quirks.
       
                jerrygoyal wrote 3 days ago:
                Interesting. What are some things you wish could still be
                better in Ubuntu?
       
          deadmutex wrote 3 days ago:
          > I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the
          hardware.
          
          Do you mean software? Or are you referring to the iMac? because on
          the laptop side, the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of
          simplicity. Build quality is a different story, etc.
       
            gwbas1c wrote 3 days ago:
            > the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of simplicity
            
            To the Framework? Oh heck yes!
            
            I switched to Mac when the rumors were that Windows Vista was going
            to be a flop. Today, I like MacOS better than Windows 10, but
            Windows 10 is very nice.
       
        remarkEon wrote 3 days ago:
        Who actually makes the boards for this? I want to believe here, but I
        need to know a little more about the supply chain before I’ll pick
        one up.
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          One of the big Taipei-based notebook manufacturers who builds
          machines for other popular brands.  We'll be giving deeper
          transparency into our supply chain once we get full sign-off from the
          folks we work with there.
       
            baybal2 wrote 3 days ago:
            But in principle, who is doing the manufacturing, and getting a
            production ready design?
            
            Hearing "Taipei-based notebook manufacturer" I think already tells
            how it is, but I myself is totally OK with OEM laptops, especially
            if you put running Linux a priority.
            
            I had my own plans for making a designed from scratch x86 laptop
            with AMD Ryzen chipset a year ago. Covid of course made a change to
            my plans.
       
        99_00 wrote 3 days ago:
        Worst case it fails as a product but succeeds in increasing knowledge
        to help move us away from throwaway electronics culture.
       
        mirchiseth wrote 3 days ago:
        Yes, this is so needed in the era of SoC notebooks. As much as Apple M1
        is a leap forward we still need systems similar to frame.work notebook.
        
        A relatable story - I have an Acer notebook from 2013. I bought it from
        Microsoft store in Valley Fair mall in San Jose, CA. Over the years I
        have upgraded its hard disk to ssd, RAM and more recently wifi card to
        wifi 6 (learnt not to buy before opening the notebook. I bought an m2
        card while in 2013 half mini pci cards were all the rage)
       
        Klonoar wrote 3 days ago:
        Just two months ago I posted this comment here on HN, bemoaning the
        state of laptops: [1] You all have made me very, very happy this
        morning. This is an amazing start!
        
   URI  [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25565148
       
        antoineMoPa wrote 3 days ago:
        Can we replace the Windows key by a Tux key?
       
        GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
        This looks absolutely fantastic!
        
        Any plans for a larger version,  14/15", or maybe even 16"?
       
          zepearl wrote 3 days ago:
          I'll add that I'm looking since forever for a 16+/17'' *thin" laptop
          (currently using a Lenovo P71, which is a brick) - for some reason
          nowadays there are hundreds of 13/14/15'' laptops which are thin, but
          17'' are always huge - the only thin one that exists, as far as I
          know, is the LG Gram 17, which is not available with my country's
          keyboard layout (Swiss German).
          
          Very important things for me would be the keyboard (normal layout,
          include insert&delete&pgup/down&home&end-keys arrowkeys should have a
          bump or similar to be located easily without watching, ideally as
          well a number pad - the one of Lenovo is excellent) and the
          resolution (FullHD not good enough on a 17'' - must be something
          higher, max 4k, ideally IPS). About the rest: normal CPU (at least 4
          threads), normal RAM (8GB probably not enough, better 16GB), normal
          storage (1 normal SSD/NVME), maybe an ethernet connection, no
          separate/discrete GPU, no cd/dvd, 2 USB connectors, no
          superfast/superhot CPU in any case something which does not make the
          fan spin up often, does not have to be superlight.
          
          Cheers & good luck :)
       
            GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
            Yeah, reason I asked is that I find 13" just a wee bit too small
            for my liking, so it would be nice to have the option of something
            just a little bigger.
            
            Not 17" tho, even if it was light (it wouldn't be), it would be
            massive.
            
            Years back I got lumbered with a 17" CAD laptop from work, an HP I
            think. It weighed 5-6kg, which was ridiculous - I ended up with
            grazing all over my shoulder from my backpack! Luckily I managed to
            swap it after a short time.
       
              zepearl wrote 3 days ago:
              Sorry, I did misuse a bit your post to just add as well my own
              personal wish (as you anyway mentioned 16''...), but I'm sorry if
              it gave you the impression of me wanting to interfere with your
              own wishes, I absolutely didn't mean to :P
              
              I agree about 13'' - a little bit too small. I currently own as
              well a 14'' Lenovo X1 Carbon (4th gen) and I personally think
              that that's perfect to carry around and to work with (I do use it
              as well at home from time to time) (newer models have an even
              thinner bezel, which makes them even better).
              
              Yes, I absolutely agree that 17'' are quite a challenge to carry
              around (I remember that many years ago when I was walking around
              in Manchester with a thick Asus 17'' in my backpack, after a few
              KMs I started realizing that that was a mistake, hehe) - my
              usecase would be to use it mostly just at home or at least when
              not changing too often the workplace.
       
        ThinkBeat wrote 3 days ago:
        I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair.
        That goes for laptops and cellphone in particular.
        
        Laptops used to allow easy replacement of battery, memory
        and hardrives at the very least.
        
        All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices "thinner" and the
        design more attractive.
        
        What bits me most is that a lot of younger friends I have, 
        have no such expectations.
        
        Talk to them about a cellphone the answer is usually "well if you have
        had it for 2 years it is probably time to buy a new one anyway"
        
        Apples wireless earplugs are use and throw away.
        With a life expectancy of a little over 2 years from
        what I have read. No way to swap the batteries.
        I do not know if that figure is accurate.
        
        I live in Norway now and the government is doing all sorts of things
        "for the environment" but have no interest in laws to force hardware
        makers to sell equipment that can be easily repaired.
        
        Not that it would matter much for Norway, 
        hardware makers would just pull out and the citizens would
        be very angry at the government.
        
        If the EU and the US could join forces on it there would
        be repaid change.
        
        I wonder if a latest generation Apple Air would be "easily" updated by
        Apple to allow end user replacement.
        
        I doubt it.
        
        Let say such a law could be passed, and it mattered, 
        how much thicker and "less" attractive would things get.
        I wonder what engineering could come up with.
        
        Buying less, keeping things longer, and making things repairable should
        be at the very top of the green agenda.
        That would all results in less sales so no major government seemsm to
        go that way.
       
          fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
          > I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair. That goes
          for laptops and cellphone in particular.
          
          IFixIt: Smartphone Doesn’t Have to Be Glued Shut
          
   URI    [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCccpgposh4
       
          poutrathor wrote 3 days ago:
          high tech and environment considerations are conflicting way harder
          than most nerds care to acknowledge and it's a real issue.
       
            Silhouette wrote 3 days ago:
            I'm not sure that's quite true. High tech marketing and profits may
            be conflicting with environment considerations, but those are not
            technical issues.
            
            I would argue that after many years of customisable/repairable
            desktop PCs and servers, it is clear that a more modular and
            standardised design is a good thing in most ways. It tends to be
            gamers who are the big upgrade-in-place fans and will look at
            things like new CPUs or graphics cards or even motherboards, but
            the modularity and standardisation are also good for simple things
            like adding more storage or RAM, or replacing a failed PSU or drive
            in an otherwise working system.
            
            Even if you never use the flexibility yourself, an old PC can
            potentially have the storage devices wiped or replaced for security
            and then be passed on to another user. That might be a recycled
            home PC going to a less developed country where someone otherwise
            wouldn't be able to afford one. It might be a business clearing out
            some old pro-level equipment that finds its way to a homelab
            enthusiast. Either way, it's saving someone money and making more
            use of the equipment for longer.
            
            Modern laptops and phones have fought against this modularity and
            flexibility, and that's not a good thing. There have been all kinds
            of arguments made about achieving smaller and lighter devices that
            people carry with them, or needing carefully engineered airflows to
            keep high performance components cool in limited space, or
            achieving better fluid resistance in case of accidents. Sometimes
            those arguments do have some merit. But let's not kid ourselves
            that all the sealed cases and ever-changing connectors (or lack of
            connectors) and active steps to prevent systems working with
            "unofficial" replacement parts aren't heavily in the interests of
            the manufacturers and doing real harm to both customers and the
            environment.
       
          crooked-v wrote 3 days ago:
          > All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices "thinner" and
          the design more attractive.
          
          I think the other major factor you're overlooking here is battery
          life. High-end laptops these days are mostly battery (right up to the
          100 Wh carry-on limit set by the FAA), with everything else designed
          to fit into the space left over.
       
          google234123 wrote 3 days ago:
          I'm pretty sure Apple goes far more for the green agenda than the old
          PC makers ever did - even taking into account the tiny savings you
          get from the few people that upgraded or repaired their laptops in
          the past.
       
            neop1x wrote 3 days ago:
            Nah, not anymore. SSD and RAM are soldered on the motherboard in
            newer Macbooks [1]. And you can't even swap parts in iPhone 12
            unless you reprogram their EEPROMs [2]. [1]
            
   URI      [1]: https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability
   URI      [2]: https://youtu.be/FY7DtKMBxBw
       
            magikaram wrote 3 days ago:
            Apple, when you had repairs for a device, rather than repairing it,
            have actually ended up just throwing away the old device in favor
            of swapping for a new one. 
            The past 6 years, they've made devices with no serviceable parts.
            Your RAM, Storage, Keyboard, among other parts - are all soldered
            to the board, riveted to the chassis, or glued shut. There is no
            way to service those machines. Once your Flash chips die, you  need
            a whole new motherboard.
            
            Sure, Apple recycles some of the parts of the device, but
            environmentally, it's much better to support and repair a device
            than it is to simply crush it and recycle it.
       
        PufPufPuf wrote 3 days ago:
        "Founding news" like these aren't really that exciting -- I'll be
        excited once one of these "modular laptop / phone" companies manages to
        last a few years and actually deliver on their promises.
       
        VoidWhisperer wrote 3 days ago:
        Any chance of thunderbolt 3 support? If the module port adapters are
        just (port) to usb-c on the inside then this seems unlikely
       
        dorfsmay wrote 4 days ago:
        Add:
        
        * An option for a good quality trackpoint and 3 buttons
        
        * A possibility to order a fully assembled model without an OS
        
        And you will quickly get a significant share of buyers from the
        ThinkPad/Linux crowd.
       
          alrs wrote 3 days ago:
          The patents on Trackpoint must have expired by now. I need 3 physical
          buttons, at minimum.
       
        RMPR wrote 4 days ago:
        > install your preferred Linux distribution.
        
        Where do I sign? I can't help but wonder if those won't be more
        expensive than a same specs Laptop. It would totally be understandable
        but still...
       
        sto_hristo wrote 4 days ago:
        This is something i need. I just can't bring myself into purchasing a
        laptop of any brand due to the black boxing and lack of upgrades.
        Sticking to desktop until this stagnated market exist the cave.
        
        In terms of design i value optimal decisions without going into
        extremities such as thinnest possible at all costs. Logo on the
        CRT-level of thickness bezels - nonsense.
        
        Bookmarking this and waiting for the reviews.
       
        teddyh wrote 4 days ago:
        Yeah, let’s pretend that firmware isn’t a thing and RYF
        certification isn’t important.  /s
        
        I only care about repairability when it affects a product’s
        longevity.  And if the drivers are proprietary and will be unsupported
        after the warranty runs out, who cares if I can repair the hardware? 
        It’s useless anyway if I can’t get security updates to the thing.
       
        aerovistae wrote 4 days ago:
        Wait what operating system does it use?
       
        ryanisnan wrote 4 days ago:
        Wow, I would love to try this out. If the folks nail the hardware
        aspect, this is my future.
       
        wegs wrote 4 days ago:
        If they release 3D CAD models, connector part numbers, and circuit
        schematics, I'm buying one as my next laptop (when my current one fails
        or goes obsolete; not as soon as it's released). I expect, if history
        is any indicator, that they'll be out-of-business by then, though. I'd
        want to know:
        
        - How parts connect at a modular level (e.g. pinout and signalling
        between LCD and motherboard, how the battery communicates, etc.). I
        don't need to know e.g. motherboard schematic / layout
        
        - Mechanicals (enough to 3d print things which fit)
        
        - Ideally, as much firmware open as possible (esp. places like battery)
        
        .. and so on. I'd pay a pretty good markup too.
        
        I do agree with many posts. I'm not obsessive about laptop size and
        weight. I want something sturdy and which works well for work. Battery
        life, cooling, robustness, etc. all matter a lot more than weight.
       
        ricardobayes wrote 4 days ago:
        I was just this hopeful of Project Ara as this one. Really hope it can
        make it. Hardware is hard and expansion cards make it a lot more
        harder.
        All the best to the team! Hats off.
       
        TheSpiceIsLife wrote 4 days ago:
        Interesting tie but:
        
        Approximately 75% of the aluminium ever produced is still in use today
        as it can be recycled endlessly without compromising any of its unique
        properties or qualities.
        
        Aluminium’s life cycle provides significant benefits through
        recycling, saving 95% of the energy it would take to make new aluminium
        metal.
        
   URI  [1]: https://aluminium.org.au/sustainability/recycling-sustainabili...
       
        nelsonenzo wrote 4 days ago:
        pricing?
       
        cat199 wrote 4 days ago:
        looks awesome!
        
        but will take the opportunity to be a know it all critic from the
        peanut gallery to be annoyed by the schmarmy 'made with ♥' that i see
        on everything these days.. is anyone else as annoyed by this as I am?
        hmm...
        
        wouldn't stop a potential purchase though. kudos!
       
        liminalsunset wrote 4 days ago:
        Looks wonderful! Just a quick question - is Thunderbolt or USB4 support
        provided? I havent seen a mention of it on the site yet
        
        Thanks!
       
        alex_duf wrote 4 days ago:
        it seems like nrp is answering questions around here, so here's another
        one: will you be shipping to the UK and / or continental Europe?
        
        Edit: found the answer: "We're shipping in the US and Canada this
        summer and opening up additional countries in Europe and Asia before
        the end of the year"
       
          elric wrote 3 days ago:
          I hope they'll be partnering with an EU distributor so it's easier to
          reclaim VAT and to avoid having to pay import taxes.
       
        Vinnl wrote 4 days ago:
        > The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled (PCR)
        aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic.
        
        Like others have mentioned, I'm immediately thinking of Fairphone.
        Definitely going to keep an eye on this and hope it's still on my mind
        when I'm next in the market. Until then, I'm hoping they'll looking
        into responsible sourcing of conflict minerals [1] [2], possibly in
        partnership with Fairphone.
        
        Edit: Hmm, can't find an RSS feed. Anyone know if there's one I can
        follow somewhere? [1]
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact/fair-materials-sourcing/
   URI  [2]: https://www.fairphone.com/en/2017/02/01/fairer-materials-a-lis...
       
        ConfusedDog wrote 4 days ago:
        Looks very interesting.  Hopefully the pricing isn't ridiculous, and
        come with empty SSD/RAM so users don't waste money on a basic build.  I
        have concerns about the port modules, as they are "mechanical moving
        parts" that I don't have good experience with, but definitely a better
        alternative than dongles in a lot of use cases.  Signed up subscribed. 
        Looking forward to see it in action.
       
        VlijmenFileer wrote 4 days ago:
        Another laptop with arrow keys so small they're unusable.  No usable
        arrow keys means useless computer.  What is wrong with laptop
        manufacturers making these broken keys standard?  There's hardly any
        laptop left I could buy.  A bit longer and I will have to drag an
        external keyboard everywhere just to use my laptop.  Or just forgo
        laptop at all and start carrying some miny PC.    It's insanity.
       
          craftkiller wrote 2 days ago:
          The librem 14 has what looks to be full-sized arrow keys:
          
   URI    [1]: https://puri.sm/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/11300004-edited.j...
       
          FPGAhacker wrote 4 days ago:
          I certainly can understand the frustration. To offer another point of
          view, I’m not sure I’ve touched my arrow keys once in the last
          several years. I might have, but I don’t remember it if I did.
       
            VlijmenFileer wrote 4 days ago:
            Yeah I understand not everybody has the same use pattern.  But my
            right hand about /lives/ on those keys half of the time.  I got a
            new work laptop a few months, some 13inch Fujitsu with same arrow
            keys.  It's also not a matter of time; I /still/ cannot properly
            use them. And though I'm Caucasian, I do not even have big hands. 
            I honestly do not get it, there is easily enough place even on 13
            incht laptops..
       
          ben_ wrote 4 days ago:
          Swappable keyboard
       
        wgjordan wrote 4 days ago:
        "designed to last" sounds great, but it can also be an empty promise
        without any contractual guarantees. What's the warranty going to be on
        this product?
       
        adamc wrote 4 days ago:
        I give them credit for an interesting attempt. I don't think I'm the
        market, but.
       
        freeone3000 wrote 4 days ago:
        The port design is intriguing. My concern is your main competition, at
        least from me, is against Lenovo. Their thinkpads don't offer the
        modularity of IO ports, but instead simply offer "one of everything",
        with user-replacable SSD, HDD, and RAM modules, which is enough for
        most users. Swappable screens might be enough of a selling point, but,
        I'm holding out for the actual final specs. It doesn't look like it can
        fit a dedicated video card, so it's no competition for the Legion line,
        but it might stand up to the Thinkpad line.
       
          GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
          Do any of the modern Thinkpads offer user-replaceable parts? Any time
          I see Thinkpads recommend on HN, it's for older, 2nd hand laptops.
          
          Also, do any of such Thinkpads approach the lightness, thinness and
          aesthetic of this laptop? Last time I looked at new Thinkpads, I seem
          to recall they were pretty chunky, with only the Ideapads being thin,
          light and nice to look at (it was a while ago, so I might have that
          wrong tho)
       
            tgsovlerkhgsel wrote 3 days ago:
            Keyboard, SSD, one of two RAM sticks, WiFi card, and honestly
            basically everything else except one RAM and the CPU/GPU look
            replaceable on the T14 and P14s, with a publicly available manual
            to guide you: [1] Comes with 2x USB-C, 2x USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet,
            3.5mm headset jack, MicroSD.
            
            That said, the Lenovo online shop is a customer service disaster.
            Don't buy there. Misadvertised the smart card reader as a
            SD/MMC/... card reader, defrauds customers by advertising a "best
            price" policy that they then refuse to honor, 3 months to shipping
            with repeated delays, they play stupid games with their pricing
            (e.g. they jack up the price during week days by about 30% to milk
            business customers), zero flexibility (e.g. if the shipment is
            delayed because they're missing the removable RAM, they can't
            change the order to ship you a unit without the RAM, your only
            option would be to cancel and go to the end of the queue).
            
            Also, poor hardware support for the GPU and possibly Bluetooth
            under Ubuntu 20.04 LTS.
            
   URI      [1]: https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/t14_gen1_p1...
       
            danhor wrote 3 days ago:
            I'm really happy with both of these aspects on my Thinkpad T14. It
            has user replacable ram (one slot), wifi, nvme drive as well as a
            remaining free m2 slot, used for WAN on models with that. Lenovo
            also tells you the partnumbers of replacements and I've been able
            to find many of them for sale around the internet. It's approx. the
            same weight and a tad thicker and I (personally) like the design.
            It also has a 16 thread AMD cpu, which was pretty important to me.
       
              GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
              Just had a look - I don't think I would describe it as a pretty
              machine, more kind of "inoffensive" :) But it is 14", fairly
              light, and replaceable parts is nice. Looks like it maxes out at
              16GB, which is a deal-breaker for me tho.
       
                danhor wrote 3 days ago:
                > more kind of "inoffensive"
                
                Fair, it's certainly not going for the eyecatcher look
                
                The 16 gb option refers only to the soldered ram, you can
                expand it with a 32gb stick to 48gb, I'm currently running it
                with 24gb (8 GB stick). I'd have liked two ram slots, but for
                my purposes even 16 GB is enough. (be aware, some online shops
                might do the update for you and sell one with two 8 gb sticks,
                but I'm not aware of Lenovo offering something like that)
       
                  GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
                  Ah, then I misunderstood, thanks for setting me straight!
       
            freeone3000 wrote 3 days ago:
            The framework laptop is 16mm thick and 1.5kg. Those are the
            dimensions of a ThinkPad T480 and its successors. (As in, the
            framework laptop is not as thin or as light as you're assuming --
            it's "standard" laptop size, not Ultrabook)
       
              GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
              According to the specs, this laptop is actually only 1.3kg and
              15.8mm thick.
              
              As a couple of comparisons, the XPS 13 is 1.27kg and 14.8mm
              thick; the MBP 13 is 1.4kg and 1.56mm thick; the ThinkPad X1 Nano
              is 1.18kg and 13.87mm thick.
              
              Note you have to compromise with the X1 Nano, as it maxes out at
              only 16GB of RAM, and doesn't have great battery life.
              
              So this is lighter than an MBP, and basically the same thickness,
              all while being upgradable - you haven't convinced me that this
              isn't witchcraft ;)
       
        maxrev17 wrote 4 days ago:
        I hate to be negative, but the market has decided it wants
        un-repairable and un-upgradeable devices.
       
          Udo wrote 3 days ago:
          Judging by how much interest this has garnered on HN, there does seem
          to be a market. I think people would at least like the option.
          
          Every time I buy a laptop, it's a matter of tradeoffs. Some of these
          tradeoffs are technical (like battery life vs power), but some are
          purely based on what level of planned obsolescence the manufacturer
          thinks they can get away with.
          
          I'm not sure if there was ever a time when manufacturers competed
          solely on putting features into their hardware, but the situation
          right now is at least as much about how many antifeatures they can
          get away with. The "free market" stops working when every
          manufacturer does this and the barrier for new offerings is
          impossibly high.
       
        mraza007 wrote 4 days ago:
        Reading about the project reminds me of Project Ara by Google as they
        were going to introduce modular phone where person can take on and take
        off the parts
       
        dash2 wrote 4 days ago:
        The problem is that non-repairability has an economic logic.
        Essentially, you make a machine with a rather predictable lifetime. It
        is the equivalent of renting the machine out. You're can then offer
        support for that time period. If the time period is long enough,
        customers will want to upgrade the whole caboodle at the end.
        Everyone's happy. And with the focus on a single product, you have the
        scale to pour resources into product design.
        
        This approach will attract demanding customers - like the hn crowd -
        who will put demands on support as they customize and tinker. Then, if
        they extend it a lot, they'll likely buy from other suppliers who
        free-ride off your development work. So you lose repeat custom.
        
        Tl;dr: there's a reason why modern cars don't have easily accessible
        engines, and do come with fixed-term support packages. Bundling works.
        It may even be best for the consumer.
       
        danbolt wrote 4 days ago:
        Part of me feels like by the time we get an interchangeable
        laptop/phone, it will be a bit like the PC where  interchangeable parts
        were used off-the-shelf instead of custom made.
       
        pachico wrote 4 days ago:
        This is just great and I wish then the best of luck. I will seriously
        consider them for my next laptop!
       
        dfgdghdf wrote 4 days ago:
        Reading down the proposed spec sheet, I'm starting to see how crappy
        the competition is!
        
        * Apple MacBook - Nothing configurable. Expensive and not build to be
        repaired.
        
        * Microsoft Surface - Much the same, but with Windows
        
        * Lenovo Thinkpad - A little more configurable than a MacBook, and much
        better value, but still difficult to repair. Missing premium features
        like an Aluminium case.
        
        * Dell XPS 13 - Much like the Lenovo, but the Linux option is nice.
        
        If they pull this off, developers are going to love it. I really wish
        them the best.
        
        My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3 Linux
        distributions.
       
          efficax wrote 2 days ago:
          Is the thinkpad better value than the MacBook?
          
          The i7 16GB ram / 512GB ssd Thinkpad X1 Carbon is $1900 and you don't
          even get a nice display. The M1 16GB/512GB ssd Macbook Pro is only
          $1700 and you get a best-in-class display along with that.
          
          The XPS 13 and Surface are similarly priced. Macbooks are very price
          competitive and have been for a long time.
       
          fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
          > I'm starting to see how crappy the competition is!
          
          What about this laptop?
          
   URI    [1]: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14
       
          arianvanp wrote 3 days ago:
          > * Lenovo Thinkpad - A little more configurable than a MacBook, and
          much better value, but still difficult to repair. Missing premium
          features like an Aluminium case.
          
          difficult to repair? They're super easy to repair! My T430 even came
          with a bay to access the RAM and hard drive without opening the case
          up.
          
          Also replacing things like keyboard usually is only 2 screws even on
          the newer models.
          
          All screws are standard philips too.
          
          Lenovo also published comprehensive repair guides for all their
          thinkpad laptops.
       
            dfgdghdf wrote 3 days ago:
            I think that model is discontinued. You need to compare with the X1
            Carbon models.
       
              nickflood wrote 3 days ago:
              Dell XPS 13/15/17 are super repairable, too. Unlike the macbooks,
              the battery is replaceable. On 15"/17" models the RAM is
              socketed. The SSD drives are all standard socketed. And nothing
              is glued, everything is screwed in with a good replacement parts
              market available after about a year of the laptop coming out.
              I've just gotten the XPS 9310 and 9700 and they are very
              repairable.
              
              Only things missing are the RAM on a 13" version and wifi cards
              being soldered in (but you can theoretically use a different
              wi-fi card on a 17" as it has a spare M.2 slot).
              
              Before that I've performed upgrades from XPS 15 9550 to 9560 and
              9570 by swapping the motherboard and couple other parts. So it's
              not like Apple _at all_. It's more like the opposite of Apple
       
          codemac wrote 3 days ago:
          > Missing premium features like an Aluminium case.
          
          Magnesium is a different type of premium for some.
       
            SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
            Its extremely light. I initially thought it was plastic until I
            tapped and scraped my fingernail along the vents.
       
          w0mbat wrote 3 days ago:
          Intel processors are done in the laptop market. I'll stick with fast,
          silent, ARM based machines like the M1 MacBooks.
       
          f1refly wrote 3 days ago:
          My first thought on it was that I love it and I want one, my second
          thought was that its really sad they don't have a thinkpad-like
          rubberized alloy case but only a subpar mac-like shell available.
          Tastes differ, I guess.
       
          protomyth wrote 4 days ago:
          My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3 Linux
          distributions.
          
          May sure it works flawlessly with one of the BSD distributions and
          you know the Linux experience will be flawless.
       
        desmap wrote 4 days ago:
        Nirav, I don't want to be the guy but yeah. One the one side, I like
        that somebody finally takes care of products we really
        need—notebooks. That somebody enters the hardware game, one of the
        hardest spaces to conquer. On the other side, I am a bit underwhelmed.
        
        I mean this must the dream of every engineer, designer and 13-year old.
        Designing your own notebook. And what's the results? It's good, I would
        buy one, maybe. But is it a gadget I think of before I fall asleep?
        
        This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?), huge clumsy
        bays nobody asked for and a non-centered displays. Worst, a design that
        doesn't dare, that is afraid to go beyond the Macbook comfort zone,
        something that wants to be liked, something Chuwi and BMAX, two low-end
        Chinese brands, would have designed better. Btw, celebrating this
        reparability feature, maybe you should check out what
        Schenker/XMG/Clevo or the Thinkpads do for years. Not that all of
        aforementioned are dealbreakers but IDK, let's says they do not make a
        good first impression.
        
        Look at following non-iconic notebooks[1]—I don't compare yours with
        iconic brands, this wouldn't be fair—but look what other non-premium
        brands are able to create. These are gadgets I dream of and you should
        think of restarting the project, seriously, I mean are you happy with
        this yourself or would Jobs be? [1] Brand new Chinese Yoga 14S [1]
        Brand new Asus Flow X13 [2] Razer Book 13 [3] Asus G14 ACRONYM limited
        editon, [4] ---
        
        PS: If anyone disagrees, pls comment and let me know where I am wrong
        thanks.
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/kifq5i/lenovo_yog...
   URI  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/eGPU/comments/l5fq7a/asus_rog_flow_x1...
   URI  [3]: https://www.razer.com/productivity-laptops/razer-book-13
   URI  [4]: https://rog.asus.com/microsite/ROG-ZEPHYRUS-G14-ACRNM/
       
          RussianCow wrote 4 days ago:
          > This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?), huge
          clumsy bays and a non-centered displays. Worst a design that doesn't
          dare, that is afraid to go beyond the Macbook comfort zone, something
          that wants to be liked. Not that all of these are dealbreakers but
          IDK, let's says they do not make a good first impression.
          
          Personally, I don't think they want to change too many variables at
          the same time. It makes sense to first create something that is
          familiar to users while offering the benefits they advertise, instead
          of alienating users right off the bat with a weird/different design
          that may or may not be successful. It's just unnecessary risk at this
          point.
       
        subaquamille wrote 4 days ago:
        Fairphone is doing interchangeability for... phones [1] Although the
        feature/price is a bit below average brands, they are greatly priced if
        you take into account the sustainability. I Hope more brands will go
        this way so concurrence could help get better products and reduce
        electronic trash.
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.fairphone.com/en/
       
          bigpeopleareold wrote 1 day ago:
          I got my FP3+ on Friday, so here's to hoping for another 5-8 years of
          not buying another phone and repairing what I have :) (Switched after
          8 years of using Nexus 5s and I did have to repair it, but someone
          gave me a new-ish one during that time.)
       
          diurnalist wrote 4 days ago:
          I was excited to take the leap and try the FP2, and ended up really
          disappointed by it. The quality of both hardware and software was
          just pretty bad. The casing would warp and pop off over time; I had
          to order 2 replacements in the 2 years I had it. Separately, at the
          time (maybe still the case), they didn't ship parts at all to the
          USA, so when I moved there, I was unable to get replacement parts. My
          microphone module got so flaky that it would periodically lose a good
          connection to the bus and the person on the other end wouldn't hear
          anything I was saying, which took a while to figure out. The
          connectivity was also awful, maybe also a USA thing. I couldn't get
          reception at either my work place or several apartments I rented. It
          was incredibly frustrating because I really wanted it to work. That
          they phased out FP1 parts after 4 years confirmed to me that it just
          wasn't worth it. I keep my phones for that long anyways, it may as
          well at least be built well. Oh, there were also compatibility
          problems with Android apps because FP OS development often lagged
          pretty behind, but that's a different story.
       
        dbeley wrote 4 days ago:
        For a laptop mainly targeting power users, I think it lacks several
        features for it to be a game changer:
        
        - trackpoint
        - real mouse buttons
        - exotic keyboard layouts (i.e ortholinear)
       
          unionpivo wrote 4 days ago:
          it has user replaceable TrackPoint and keyboard. So those could come
          later, if it succeeds.
          
          Plus they say it will support 3rd party developing accessories, so
          maybe ?
       
        ctocoder wrote 4 days ago:
        Intel based? That adds a 35% markup. AMD or ARM I would think would be
        platforms one would invest in if making something new.
       
        loop0 wrote 4 days ago:
        They have my attention here. As a long time thinkpad x220 user and tons
        of mods and upgrades in it I like the repairability approach. As a
        linux user I would prefer if they had an all AMD option.
        
        Congrats on this project, I hope you folks succeed and bring more
        companies to make laptops/hardware with the same approach.
       
        vermaden wrote 4 days ago:
        So its now innovative to get back to 2010 and re-create old ThinkPad
        laptop with unusable 'island' keyboard? :)
       
        ploxiln wrote 4 days ago:
        I don't see any mention of the firmware and drivers efforts for this.
        Firmware and drivers always end up more difficult to deal with than
        expected.
        
        The Fairphone company was surprised by difficulties upgrading and
        patching android without support from their BSP vendor, causing many
        months delays of updates _and_ years shorter support life than they
        were planning for their earlier models.
        
        I purchased the Purism Librem 13 laptop from their kickstarter, and
        they had great plans for firmware and drivers, but also great
        difficulty following through. The trackpad chosen for the first models
        took much longer than expected to get upstream linux support, and it
        was never great (it turned out to be impossible to reliably detect
        their variant automatically). They finally hired someone with
        sufficient skill to do the coreboot port _months_ after initial units
        were delivered, and delivered polished coreboot firmware for their
        initial laptops _years_ after they started the kickstarter.
        
        So, why should we have confidence in the firmware and drivers that
        Framework will deliver :)
       
          bmd3991 wrote 3 days ago:
          Semi off-topic, but how is working in the firmware/drivers/systems
          space? Everyone always talks about how hard it is, so that makes me
          think that companies would be paying a premium for good systems devs.
          On the other hand there aren't as many companies who have that need.
          I enjoyed the low level work I did in college and have been thinking
          about getting back into it, but there are no jobs involving it near
          me (moving to Seattle in a bit so this should change)
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec, and we're
          using a mature off the shelf BIOS solution shipping in other
          notebooks today.  We chose our key components with driver stability
          across both Windows and Linux in mind.    We know this is something we
          have to get right to deliver a credible competitor to all the great
          notebooks already in the market, so it is something we focused on
          from the start.
       
            rkangel wrote 3 days ago:
            Have you considered providing an out of the box Linux experience?
            
            I have no intention of using the Ubuntu provided with a Lenovo
            laptop if I buy one, but the fact that that there is a fully
            working Linux distro for that machine means that all of the
            requisite bits and pieces are somewhere in the Open Source
            community (and because I use Fedora, I'm almost certainly using a
            new enough version of Kernel, Gnome etc. that they're already
            there).
       
            john4532452 wrote 3 days ago:
            Will the user be able to replace custom BIOS, that is a killer
            feature no notebook or laptop offers ?
       
            Tijdreiziger wrote 3 days ago:
            > Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec
            
            Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing this statement. Your 'embedded
            controller' (whatever that may be) firmware is based on a web
            browser?
       
              eightails wrote 3 days ago:
              I think they are referring to part of the Chromium OS project,
              which seems to be open source firmware for basic device functions
              including "power sequencing, keyboard control, thermal control,
              battery charging, and verified boot" [0]
              
              [0]
              
   URI        [1]: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec...
       
                Tijdreiziger wrote 3 days ago:
                Ah, I didn't know Chrome OS had an OSS counterpart. Thanks!
       
              QuinnWilton wrote 3 days ago:
              Chromium EC. It's the part of Chromebooks that handles things
              like keypresses:
              
   URI        [1]: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec...
       
            southerntofu wrote 3 days ago:
            Hi, i'm interested about details. Are they on a wiki somewhere?
            
            > driver stability across both Windows and Linux
            
            Is "Linux" in this case mainline linux or does entail to use
            nvidia/ati proprietary drivers? If mainline linux, is it a free
            driver, or a binary blob? (see linux-libre)
            
            > a mature off the shelf BIOS solution
            
            Is coreboot/libreboot on your roadmap?
            
            I'm not trying to nitpick. Congratulations on the hardware design
            that looks amazing (replaceable port extensions, clever!). I
            strongly believe software is also an important part of
            reliability/durability, that's why my questions :)
       
            cpill wrote 3 days ago:
            if you have a fingerprint reader that works in Linux I'm in!
       
              odysseus wrote 3 days ago:
              My Thinkpad fingerprint reader works in Linux.    Well, it works
              perhaps 80-85% of the time.  See
              
   URI        [1]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1231185/fingerprint-logi...
       
              kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
              Working on it!
       
            abrowne wrote 3 days ago:
            Please support the Linux Vendor Firmware Service [1] :-)
            
   URI      [1]: https://fwupd.org/
       
          2020aj wrote 4 days ago:
          Librem was geared towards openness/security, this just has a focus on
          repairability. Can Framework not just use off the shelf parts that
          already have the proper firmware/drivers available for windows/linux
          and then encounter none of the same issues? Or is the issue the
          interfaces b/w the modules and mainboard?
       
            ploxiln wrote 3 days ago:
            For desktop computers this is a lot easier, for laptops it's still
            not that easy. The motherboards are not just COTS "Asus z490 prime"
            or whatever, and you can't just include a nice standard USB mouse
            which requires no drivers. If you don't have a good plan for how
            you will ensure you have good motherboard firmware and touchpad
            drivers, then they won't turn out good.
            
            Luckily it seems like Framework do have this well under control
            (somewhat quietly :)
       
            Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
            I think the particular problem for devices based on ARM SoCs is
            they’re not on the mainline kernel, support for hardware and for
            upgrading software relies on a whole pile of hacks on top of an
            ancient kernel version, and that means that upgrading to a new
            Android version requires applying a pile of new hacks on top again,
            and can be very laborious to get a reasonable, stable result. So
            Fairphone used a chipset whose manufacturer quickly dropped support
            for upgrading beyond a certain Android version, and that made it
            difficult for Fairphone to support the upgrade themselves.
            
            Whereas if x86 systems have support on the mainline kernel, future
            kernel upgrades will be supported.
       
              TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
              This could change with support for Apple's M1 chip being added to
              the Linux mainline hopefully later this year.
       
              908B64B197 wrote 3 days ago:
              Is there a reason why there needs to be so much tweaks to get the
              kernel running on a modern SoC?
              
              Any reason there couldn't be a "canonical" ARM64 standard for
              SoC?
       
                spijdar wrote 3 days ago:
                There is a "canonical" ARM64 standard, so to speak -- ARM's
                ServerReady architecture, which implements UEFI+ACPI, which
                coupled with the right hardware, could create the same kind of
                ecosystem Intel/PCs have enjoyed for so long.
                
                The problem is a lot of ARM SoCs have tightly integrated,
                custom hardware which requires modified or new drivers, and the
                tweaks needed to use them are often either very dirty and won't
                be accepted into mainline Linux without basically redoing them,
                or are occasionally just hooks for proprietary userland blobs
                to interface with, and are effectively obfuscated, satisfying
                the "letter of the law" for GPL but no more.
                
                There are some devices like this on x86 too, FWIW -- Google's
                Pixelbook, as an example, has a few devices that effectively
                need a custom fork of Linux to get the audio device to function
                correctly, because it's driven over i2c (IIRC) and needs
                special blobs uploaded and an out-of-tree driver to function.
                
                ARM SoCs could be more "PC like" but it'd be more expensive,
                which as far as I can tell is a big reason it hasn't happened.
                No real incentive as people don't seem to care if their OS goes
                out of date in 4 years.
       
        hinkley wrote 4 days ago:
        That recessed port trick is something I've thought about every time I
        snag my Logitech universal receiver on my laptop bag. Only difference
        is that USB-C puts that idea on steroids.
       
        rkagerer wrote 4 days ago:
        With an aluminum rather than magnesium or other body, how bad do you
        anticipate the flex will be?
       
          hinkley wrote 4 days ago:
          Reinforcing fins can do quite a bit. Macbooks don't have a lot of
          flex.
          
          However, Apple has some patents that cover building up solid aluminum
          with stir welding instead of CNCing out of a solid block.
          
          You might have to challenge that patent (prior art, Boeing patents
          that may be older) to make it cheap, but if it's enthusiast targeted,
          an extra 50 bucks or whatever might be just fine for people.
       
            baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
            You cannot weld aluminium, or at least not on the cheap.
            
            The only real "weldable aluminium" known today are
            scandium-aluminium alloys which are both hard to get, and
            expensive.
       
              hinkley wrote 3 days ago:
              Cannondale bicycles would like to have a word with you. They
              started out making bikes out of 'aircraft aluminum' which if
              memory serves was [6061]( [1] ), which is magnesium silicon, not
              scandium. Do you mean you can't weld aluminum in an oxygen
              environment? I think you're right about that at least. I think
              they used argon, and then had a patented(?) annealing process to
              keep it from falling apart under the customers. Not sure what
              they do now.
              
              You have probably flown in an airplane with stir-welded aluminum.
              Stir welding is a bit like... making velcro and sticking it
              together at exactly the same time.
              
              Nobody is building things out of 'aluminum' so it feels like
              nitpicking to argue about metalurgy for a company that is just
              going to buy stock in block or plate form. With a bunch of
              electronics nerds.
              
              I only brought the metal in to talk about stiffening and because
              some patents may make it difficult for them to build a work-alike
              that lives up to their hype.
              
   URI        [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy
       
                baybal2 wrote 3 days ago:
                There are somewhat weldable alumium alloys, but their joints
                are still nowhere near as strong as steel ones in relative
                comparison.
                
                And you still have very painstaking process of finding the
                optimal welding recipe for the part, post-treatment, and
                defectoscopy.
       
        znpy wrote 4 days ago:
        this is a fantastic concept.
        
        also, this look like a realistic way to tackle e-waste (not the
        apple-esque BS)
        
        I understand that most of the e-waste is in the motherboard and the
        battery, but still, it's something. It's a huge step in the right
        directions.
       
        hnedeotes wrote 4 days ago:
        They look pretty good to me, I just shelled out for a laptop but would
        love to see the concept take over.
        
        The build quality is always the most essential:
        - monitor - this is what we look at for hours on every day
        - keyboard - I personally like macbook's perhaps is just being used to
        them (pre and post butterfly, that one I haven't tried)
        - trackpad - every other trackpad I tried besides mbs feel always a bit
        plastiky, also, no outside keys for the trackpad
        
        Good luck
       
        simonebrunozzi wrote 4 days ago:
        Which OS will you be able to run?
       
        rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
        How much linux support are you going to be providing?
        
        Eg S3 sleep and fingerprint sensor drivers?
       
          kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
          Tigerlake supports modern standby otherwise known as S0ix. We are
          also testing fingerprint support - but look out for Linux guides for
          instructions until things get upstreamed.
       
        sleepybrett wrote 4 days ago:
        Hints of the Sandbenders stuff from gibson's Idoru. But like the
        modular smartphone products (fairphone, essential phone, etc) probably
        doomed to failure.
       
        rodolphoarruda wrote 4 days ago:
        This is really a great idea! Congrats to the team.
        
        I didn't read the entire text, but here's my question: do you have in
        your plans to ship worldwide.
       
        josefresco wrote 4 days ago:
        I can't imagine the stress of launching a "sustainable" tech product
        like this, knowing every aspect of the product and business will be
        ultra-scrutinized.
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          I had a 7 year long trial run for this by making consumer VR a thing
          ;)
       
            josefresco wrote 3 days ago:
            I guess confidence is not your main issue ;-)
       
        AdmiralAsshat wrote 4 days ago:
        Looks like it's still tapering off towards the edge.
        
        Feel like they might've been able to fit slightly more space for port
        swapping if they had gone for the uniform aluminum slab design of the
        Chromebook Pixel, which, to me, is still beautiful:
        
   URI  [1]: https://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/02/google_pixel_chromebook_hero...
       
        owenversteeg wrote 4 days ago:
        This looks really cool. I'm especially loving the weight. I really
        dislike a lot of recent laptops for their fragility and lack of upgrade
        capacity, so currently I'm using a T440P which comes in around 2.26kg -
        so if this is 1.3kg that's nearly a kilo of weight savings.
        
        The replaceable battery is great, the weight is great, the design is
        pretty good, and the keyboard seems fine - 1.5mm of key travel is
        usable. (The T440P has around 2.2mm, and according to [0] all current
        Thinkpads are 1.8mm except X1 Carbon/Yoga/L14/L15 at 1.5mm)
        
        My big question, though, is the durability. If you drop this thing a
        few times, will I have any problems? What about water damage - have you
        tested anything (intentionally or unintentionally?) Any drain holes? If
        I was to spill a decent bit of water on the keyboard, would that have a
        10%/30%/80% chance of killing it?
        
        [0]
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/jhay05/which_curren...
       
          owenversteeg wrote 4 days ago:
          Also, I'm sure there are lots of people in this thread who've tried a
          similar search, so what laptops are out there with most of the
          following: good keyboard, under 1.5kg, durable, battery life >6h, RAM
          > 8GB, semi-repairable?
          
          My current model is a T440p, so using that as a comparison.
          
          So far my search has turned up:
          
          - Old Macbooks where the keyboard was still decent (but unfortunately
          they're not too tough or repairable)
          
          - T470s or T460s: the T460s was the first model with the new
          magnesium case and the T470s keeps the same case (and is only a small
          change to the T460s.) Advantage of that is a 250g weight savings
          (1.35kg total!), 49 Wh battery that lasts 6-8 hours and charges to
          80% in 90 minutes, traditional "yellow" Thinkpad charger on the T460s
          and USB-C charging on the T470s. It doesn't come at a huge cost in
          terms of durability either - still passes the MIL-STD-810. The T460s
          was the last of the S line to have drainage holes - the T470 and
          T460s have them, the T470s and T480s do not, but instead claim to
          have a "spillproof keyboard". Versus the T450s, it has HDMI out
          instead of VGA, has both batteries inside the case (no increased
          battery capacity), and better battery life with the base config.
          Unfortunately the batteries aren't removable on the outside, so it's
          a bit more of a pain to buy a used version of these (as you'd want to
          replace the batteries.)
          
          - T450s: same case as T440 versions, last model with VGA out (which
          is super useful, I had a popular rant on VGA here a year or two ago:
          [1] ) Basically a mildly upgraded T440s, which is a good, if heavy
          laptop. Default capacity of 48Wh (24+24) and total weight 1.58kg with
          standard battery - good for 5h new, or 96Wh (24+72) and total weight
          1.77kg with extended battery - good for ~10h new. And you can hot
          swap because of the internal battery!
          
          - T480s: very similar physically (weight + case + materials wise) to
          T470s. Significantly faster processor than T470s, continuing the
          trend started by the T470s of spill resistant + no drain holes.
          Mechanical shutter for the webcam! Same keyboard as T470s, aka very
          good. Better thermal management than T470s! Speakers still the same
          old Thinkpad speakers, aka shitty. Slightly larger battery - 57Wh vs
          51Wh in T470s - and a fast charge to 80% in 60 minutes - so 9-12
          hours of real world battery life.
          
          If anyone has any additional models to suggest, please do!
          
   URI    [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20431195
       
          bogwog wrote 4 days ago:
          I too love my Thinkpad(s), but pitting this thing against such high
          standards is asking a lot.
          
          Sure it'd be nice, but I'm not going to hold it against them if their
          laptop can't survive a fire/spill/drop.
       
        rch wrote 4 days ago:
        That looks a lot like my first laptop, the Sharp Actius MM10. I'd get
        one of these on that basis alone.
        
        The Ars article says the body is aluminium, but if I recall correctly,
        the Actius was a mag alloy of some kind (which I'd prefer). Either way,
        I'm curious.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          The body is 50% post consumer recycled aluminum.  We did consider
          magnesium alloy, but availability of recycled material,
          infrastructure for recycling, and costs are all prohibitive compared
          to aluminum.
       
            rch wrote 3 days ago:
            Makes sense, I just have a sensitivity to aluminum so I'm always
            looking for a way to get away from the MBP without going to
            plastic.
       
        rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
        Wow this sounds like an almost perfect laptop for me
       
        _448 wrote 4 days ago:
        After looking at this, I thought of another approach to achieve
        somewhat similar goal. Anyone interested in exploring the idea? I am a
        software engineer. So a hardware engineer and an industrial designer
        would be helpful to punch hole into my idea. Let us connect and explore
        some possibilities. My email is in my profile.
       
        tweetle_beetle wrote 4 days ago:
        A bit like the comments about incongruous items in the recent Apple lab
        video, I find the presence of a Pocket Operator on the video
        demonstrating ease of assembly rather amusing.
        
        They already ticked the expensive camera box, but for proper hipster
        bingo success, you would also need: some kind of branded grid paper
        notebook, a metal mechanical draughting pencil, a teapot with loose
        leaf tea, audiophile headphones and a 40% mechanical keyboard.
       
          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
          You joke, but my Grado headphones and Swanson Speed Square were only
          not in the video because the shipment didn't arrive at the shoot in
          time.
       
            tweetle_beetle wrote 3 days ago:
            Appreciate the honesty, that gave me a chuckle. For what it's
            worth, I was only teasing about the marketing - I signed up to the
            newsletter and would like to see the product suceed.
       
        whoomp12342 wrote 4 days ago:
        what happens when you want a new CPU of a new socket type? what happens
        when you want 8k screens?
       
        CarVac wrote 4 days ago:
        I'd love a laptop where the keyboard is a removable PCB with
        low-profile switches and integrated USB connection so you can make a
        custom layout, like the Mitosis or ortholinear or anything you please.
       
          leojfc wrote 4 days ago:
          Yes, I would buy any laptop which offered an ortholinear keyboard
          option, with customisable firmware.
          
          I switched to using an Ergodox after long hours working on a MacBook
          Pro made my wrists start to hurt and my pinkie finger to go numb (and
          this was back in the day when a MBP keyboard was still decent!). I
          can still type full speed on a regular keyboard but it doesn’t feel
          as comfortable, and I think there’s a genuine health issue at least
          for some people.
       
        belval wrote 4 days ago:
        Lot of optimism in the comments, but unless they have their supply
        chain pinned down I really really doubt that it will ship in any
        significant quantity in Summer 2021.
        
        The truth is that right now most components are insanely hard to get,
        not just GPUs and they will have to play the bidding game (which will
        make their laptop significantly more expansive) or delay. For a small
        volume like theirs, there is a non zero probability that they will get
        dropped by their manufacturer completely.
        
        I'd love to get my hands on one of their laptop though!
       
          hinkley wrote 4 days ago:
          I'm on a kickstarter that was supposed to ship in the fall and
          they've had quite a lot of trouble working with manufacturing
          partners to sort out quality control and pick one. Harder to discuss
          a physical object when you can't be in the same room.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          I shared this in another comment: We placed our forecasts and risk
          buys on most chips early in anticipation of the silicon crunch that
          is coming this year. So far, we don't see anything that puts us at
          risk, short of there being massive unexpected upside on consumer
          demand (a good problem to have!).
       
            belval wrote 3 days ago:
            That's great to hear, for the record I really really hope that the
            project will succeed, the current trend in laptops is soldering
            everything and we are generating an insane amount of waste.
       
        pimterry wrote 4 days ago:
        How does this charge? Looks like it has 4 fully swappable ports, plus a
        headphone jack. Where does the power go?
        
        Do I need to always have a USB-C adapter in one of those slots, and it
        charges through that maybe? That sort-of defeats some of the
        swappability though, if one port is effectively unchangeable. Might as
        well have a fixed USB-C port, since that's simpler and more
        space-efficient. Or is there another port or something planned that's
        just not shown on these prototypes?
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          It charges through any of the four Expansion Card ports, currently
          through the USB-C card.  Part of the reason we didn't use a fixed
          USB-C port for this is that the Expansion Card path allows for
          alternate power schemes in the future like magnetic attach, adapting
          to existing proprietary connectors, or even crazy things like POE.
       
        mwcampbell wrote 4 days ago:
        > Designed for the future of work with a 13.5” 3:2 screen
        
        I wonder if the "future" this laptop is designed for was canceled by
        COVID. Now that so many of us are working from home, maybe we should
        optimize more for a stationary work environment with no compromises on
        input or output. That is, a desktop machine with unconstrained monitor
        and keyboard sizes.
       
          salicideblock wrote 4 days ago:
          On the other hand, for more traditional companies, covid and
          expectations of post-covid mean replacing 100% office time with a mix
          of office and home time.
          
          In these cases this mix means more mobility, so more value to laptops
          over desktops.
       
        lukaszkups wrote 4 days ago:
        are different keyboard layouts even considered?
        
        I hate those small up/down arrows.
        
        Would also love to see the keyboard layout with additional column on
        the right (with PgUp, PgDown, Ins, Del etc. keys) like Mech-15 from
        Eluktronics have.
       
        GekkePrutser wrote 4 days ago:
        Hmmm nice idea but they left some obvious gaps.. With custom port
        selection, there should be more port options, like ethernet. The
        chassis is thick enough to support one of those collapsible sockets at
        the very least.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          We have a few more Expansion Cards currently in development and a
          very long list of cards in early exploration.  The ones we've
          announced so far are the ones we plan to have available at launch:
          USB-C, USB-A, HDMI, DisplayPort, MicroSD, and 250GB and 1TB storage.
       
            aidenn0 wrote 4 days ago:
            Are the expansion cards large enough to accommodate a full-size SD
            card slot?  My current laptop has a PCIe-attached SD card reader
            and it serves dual-use as storage for my windows VM and getting
            files off of my camera.  The micro-SD cards I've tried are just too
            slow to run as the system disk for a windows VM.
       
              nrp wrote 3 days ago:
              Full-size SD was actually what we intended to accommodate when we
              set the dimensions of the Expansion Card.  We started with
              MicroSD/UFS Card though because it allowed us to keep tooling in
              common with our other cards.  We would like to do full-size SD as
              well though.
       
        branon wrote 4 days ago:
        This looks great. Would like to see a model with a Zen 3 or ARM
        processor, as buying Intel hardware in 2021 is a bit of a hard sell for
        me.
        
        Outside of that, anything modular/repairable gets an A+.
       
          wcerfgba wrote 4 days ago:
          Agreed, I love everything about this but I'm currently waiting to buy
          something with a 5800H.
       
        heroHACK17 wrote 4 days ago:
        This product would make more sense if they defined "consumer" as
        "engineer-inclined consumer". Swapping parts will drive the everyday
        consumer away from this product.
       
          orthecreedence wrote 3 days ago:
          No? This opens up an entire repair market for normal consumers as
          well. Instead of buying a whole new laptop, you can replace the
          screen, or the keyboard, or etc etc.
          
          Just because you won't be doing the repair yourself doesn't mean
          "welp, repairable laptops are dumb and only nerds will use them!"
          Just means you don't have to buy a new laptop every time one little
          thing breaks.
       
        jblow wrote 4 days ago:
        Hi,
        
        When I saw this announcement I was hoping that I could finally buy a
        laptop with a good trackpad, with buttons, and a good keyboard again.
        But looking at the announcement, it seems like trackpad and keyboard
        quality are far from anyone's mind, and it just looks like the laptop
        is copying Apple stylistically like everyone else, which means it is
        going to be kind-of unusable and I won't want to use it. (Especially
        when running Windows, those kinds of giant Apple-esque trackpads are
        death, because you'll keep accidentally moving files into places you
        didn't mean to, and then of course there's the general unresponsiveness
        once you add all the PalmCheck and turn-off-trackpad-for-n-secons after
        typing junk).
        
        I like the idea of a laptop built for quality, but for me the #1
        determinant of quality is my area of constant physical contact with the
        laptop, the keyboard and trackpad. And sadly, those look like
        afterthoughts here.
        
        (For context -- I have bought and heavily used an average of more than
        one laptop per year, every year, since 1998, and have been dismayed to
        watch the quality trend constantly downward over that time).
       
          wishinghand wrote 4 days ago:
          It's strange to see a complaint about the Apple trackpad, because
          whenever I use a non-Apple laptop, I despair at the trackpad. The
          current design is too large, but the pre-USB-C models had a perfect
          size and UX. I haven't ever experienced an equal.
       
            GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
            The Apple trackpad seems to be really polarising - I often this see
            on HN: fans surprised anyone would dislike it, and opponents
            surprised anyone would like it!
            
            Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I have a 13" MBP, and find the
            buttons need way too much pressure, even with the sensitivity
            ramped up. There's also something I can't quantify... there's a
            feeling of it being laggy, and somehow "unpleasant" to drag my
            finger across. I prefer just about every other trackpad I've ever
            used, even those in dirt cheap netbooks.
       
              krrrh wrote 3 days ago:
              “Buttons”
              
              Not sure if we’re talking about the same thing with that
              plural, but the first thing I change on a new Mac is enabling tap
              to click. It works great and you can avoid the annoyance of the
              audible click.
              
              The second thing is to enable three finger drag, which the moves
              into Accessibility settings about 5 years ago.
       
                erikpukinskis wrote 3 days ago:
                Yes, all that. And then turn the sensitivity up to max.
       
              codezero wrote 3 days ago:
              I suspect it has something to do with their typing habits and/or
              some physical issue.
              
              Personally, the newest Macbooks became a problem for me despite
              the history of amazing palm rejection on Macbooks, I have sort of
              sweaty hands and when they increased the trackpad size, that
              combined with how I type (palm resting on the chassis, not
              raised), it causes a lot of jitter (I say a lot, it's super rare,
              but just enough to train me away from it) and I've ended up using
              an external mouse exclusively, but in the past year, uh, I
              haven't been mobile so that's just a nonissue :)
       
          ppezaris wrote 4 days ago:
          not intending to start an apple-vs-msft flamewar, but this has been a
          solved problem on the mac since forever. is the experience that bad
          on windows laptops that you don't want a big trackpad? genuine
          question.
       
            freeone3000 wrote 4 days ago:
            yeah. you definitely want palm detection off or it'll miss a good
            deal of swipes (if you mix typing and mousing). with palm detection
            off, you need the touchpad to be slightly offset to the left and
            small enough that it fits between your hands at rest.
       
            yunyu wrote 4 days ago:
            It is for Synaptics drivers (some manufacturers like Dell, Razer,
            HP used to default to those) but not for precision touchpad drivers
            (what's used in the Surfaces).
       
          dcow wrote 4 days ago:
          In my experience trackpad and touch support on Windows has improved
          immensely since the introduction of the Surface. I recall the
          experience you’re describing but associate it with the 2010-2015
          era .
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us.  We built
          in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm thick
          laptop.  The touchpad surface feels great and performs well.  I hear
          you on the touchpad buttons though.  That is something we've done a
          little exploration on.    The touchpad is an end-user replaceable
          module, but we can't commit to a three button version materializing
          just yet.
       
            m463 wrote 3 days ago:
            I think if you could buck the "flat thin keys" trend you would
            probably develop lots of customers for life.
            
            Thin and flat has nice visual appeal, but I think you should
            approach it from a tactile direction.
            
            My ideal keyboard would have a little extra throw, and they keys
            would be sculpted to match the curve of your fingertips for comfort
            and to help you center on the keys.
            
            I think the thinkpad keyboards were favorites for a reason.
       
            accelbred wrote 3 days ago:
            Are they mechanical keys?
       
            Liskni_si wrote 4 days ago:
            Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well.
            
            This is the best layout humanity ever invented: [1] Classic arrow
            keys, separate volume buttons, separate
            back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, …
            
   URI      [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/cs...
       
              rplnt wrote 3 days ago:
              While I agree with you one the F keys and home block, I also
              understand that's something that people might not prefer.
              
              What I don't understand are the arrows. I've been using MB Pro
              daily for over 3 years now and I still regularly miss up/down
              arrows. I would never buy a device that merges them into size of
              one key as the MB Pro does, as well as this one.
       
              nine_k wrote 3 days ago:
              I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards, too.
              
              But am I the only person considering a split ergonomic layout
              with thumb clusters, to give your pinkies some rest? The touchpad
              could live between the keyboard halves, and never be touched by
              mistake.
              
              I wonder if that could be an option.
       
              croh wrote 3 days ago:
              haha fn on extreme left. are you kidding?
       
                Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
                Fn position is obviously configurable. I have ctrl/fn swapped,
                but plenty of people don't, and that's fine. (And then plently
                of people have ctrl on capslock, which is also fine. I couldn't
                get used to it.)
       
              com2kid wrote 3 days ago:
              See, I disagree, I use home/end/pageup/pagedown all the time, and
              having them separate in an awkward spot is annoying. I prefer
              having them overlaid on the arrow keys, with fn to access them.
              IMHO that is the one area laptop keyboards can superior to full
              size keyboards.
       
                jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
                This is what makes newer ThinkPad keyboard layouts great at
                least in terms of arrow keys - the useless icon keys from the
                GP's posted image are now PgUp/PgDown, meaning you can access
                at least two out of the four without annoying two-handed
                operation. Home/End can still be bound to arrow keys plus
                modifier, but even there it's nice to have a dedicated key
                available.
                
                Basically, full-size arrow keys are what really makes the
                difference, and at that point you could get the best of both
                worlds anyway.
                
                (Let's not talk about other recent/misguided ThinkPad keyboard
                developments though.)
       
                  Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
                  I actually use those "useless" keys (back/forward in the
                  browser) more often than PgUp/PgDown, as I usually scroll
                  using the touchpad.
                  
                  But it doesn't really matter, as long as the physical keys
                  are there. They can be remapped.
       
                    jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
                    Never said they were useless! I also use them all the time.
                    There is, however, only space for two extra keys in the
                    holes of the four-arrow layout.
       
                eightails wrote 3 days ago:
                This is one of the reasons I actually really like the Surface
                Book keyboard [0]. It has home/end/pageup/pagedown as primary
                keys in the fn row, where they all fall to hand just by moving
                your right hand up from the home row.
                
                Key size and placement is generally pretty perfect for the size
                imo (backspace, shift, enter, etc aren't cramped), and key
                travel and feel is up there with the best.
                
                The up/down arrow keys and lack of brightness control in the fn
                row are the only real problems.
                
                [0]
                
   URI          [1]: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10...
       
                Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
                We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts
                then, so that you can choose a variant when purchasing it and
                then replace it with different one if you find out you don't
                like it.
                
                (And then, let's not forget that keyboard layouts are somewhat
                configurable in software. It's easy to bind pageup to
                mod-uparrow and pagedown to mod-downarrow. But it can't be done
                if the physical keys are missing, so physical keyboard layouts
                with more keys are preferable to those with less keys.
                Unfortunately fn-combos are usually hardwired in the Embedded
                Controller and can't be changed easily in software.)
       
                  fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
                  > We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts
                  then
                  
   URI            [1]: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-fre...
       
                    Liskni_si wrote 3 days ago:
                    By configurable, I mainly meant the physical layout of
                    keys, configurable at purchase time. So that one can get a
                    laptop with a trendy 6-row chiclet, or a proper 7-row
                    classic ThinkPad keyboard.
                    
                    But yeah, being able to override the key mapping in EC is
                    an important feature as well, and I'm glad someone's doing
                    it! I really hope for the future where all these pieces
                    come together: a laptop with a good physical keyboard
                    (configurable/swappable, so that everyone can get their
                    meaning of "good"), with configurable EC, replaceable
                    components, etc. That would be a dream.
       
              wishinghand wrote 3 days ago:
              At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my
              fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle
              numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you mentioned
              with layers.
       
                layer8 wrote 3 days ago:
                Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of software.
                Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys
                usability and muscle memory.
       
                  wishinghand wrote 3 days ago:
                  > Having to press yet another additional modifier key
                  destroys usability and muscle memory
                  
                  I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as
                  little as possible rather than having to stretch far and wide
                  for those extra function keys.
       
                    layer8 wrote 3 days ago:
                    For me it’s the opposite: I get RSI from having to
                    stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously,
                    whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.
       
                      wishinghand wrote 2 days ago:
                      Right, which is why I wanted the non-stretching version.
                      The modifiers are quite reachable with about 50-52 keys.
       
                      rgoulter wrote 3 days ago:
                      If there are different preferences for arrangement of
                      keyboard layout, then my vote goes to: it would be
                      amazing if there were a laptop where such things could be
                      customized.
                      Then the people who want niche 40% or 36-key layouts can
                      go with that, and those who prefer more keys can go with
                      that.
                      
                      IMO, the row-stagger is an unergonomic, archaic
                      skeuomorphism. This is also a niche opinion.
                      
                      Unfortunately, I'm sure there are practical reasons why
                      "modular keyboard" can't happen (not enough market
                      interest, strength of the laptop hull suffers if the
                      keyboard is a separate module, laptop couldn't be as
                      thin, etc.).
       
              layer8 wrote 4 days ago:
              Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T arrow
              keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, and the Menu
              key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.
       
            tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
            No buttons is clearly the logical choice. I can't imagine it would
            be worth building a three button version to satisfy that miniscule
            niche.
       
        messo wrote 4 days ago:
        I was dreaming about such a laptop only a few days ago (admittedly with
        an IBM/Lenovo-like keyboard). Do you offer ANSI keyboards for European
        countries? It would be great if a nordic keyboard layout was an option
        and easily swapable.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          We have both ANSI and ISO layouts, and we've designed the keyboard to
          be end-user replaceable.  We'll be adding more keyboard languages as
          we expand into more countries.    The clear keyboard shown in our
          product photos is actually real too!  We'll be offering clear and
          blank for the people who want that.
       
            messo wrote 3 days ago:
            Great! The clear keyboard also sounds interesting as I could hack
            together my own Norwegian Colemak layout.
            
            * I meant ISO, not ANSI in my parent comment :)
       
            andrewshadura wrote 4 days ago:
            Is the ISO layout an actual ISO, i.e. with an extra key between the
            left Shift and Z?
            
            By the way, I’d love to have a Trackpoint or an equivalent. Or a
            trackball.
       
              kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
              Yep the ISO layout has the \| key next to Z!
       
              elric wrote 3 days ago:
              Goodness I hope that key is there, I've had to jump through all
              sorts of hoops to type comfortably on keyboards that are missing
              this key.
       
        varispeed wrote 4 days ago:
        This would be perfect think to spin off your own machines. Imagine
        downloading a Kicad files for motherboard, adding your own stuff,
        sending off to JLCPCB or similar for assembly and then stuffing into
        the laptop shell.
       
          baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
          KiCAD is not the calibre of an EDA you would use to make PC
          motherboard.
       
            varispeed wrote 3 days ago:
            That depends on the frequency I guess and how integrated the chips
            of your choosing are. If you don't go to idk 1GHz area, then things
            can be forgiving. 
            Shame that the things like Altium are still out of hobbyist reach.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          That's the goal!  We will actually be publishing KiCad and
          OpenSCAD-based reference designs for the Expansion Cards for folks to
          be able to make their own.  The mainboard is a bit more challenging,
          but we do want to enable an ecosystem around that as well.
       
        Gracana wrote 4 days ago:
        Do physical units exist yet? Where is the manufacturing done? It looks
        expensive to manufacture in small quantities. I do like the idea, but
        I'm afraid that this will become e-waste if Framework doesn't exist,
        grow, and succeed for years to come.
        
        The MNT Reform also does the "sustainable laptop" thing, via an open
        source approach. It's a lot simpler to manufacture and easier for end
        users to modify, and its longevity doesn't necessarily rely on MNT
        Research continuing to exist. I feel that's the safer approach.
       
          spijdar wrote 3 days ago:
          They're just very different products, ultimately. I've preordered a
          Reform and they're just very different laptops, in that this project
          is aiming to produce a laptop that could satisfy "the masses" buying
          Thinkpads or MBPs or XPS 13s etc and want the performance and
          software compatibility.
          
          Reform makes sacrifices in performance and form factor (much bulkier)
          but makes up for it in basically all the parts being 3D printable on
          hardware you could feasibly have at home, and even the PCBs look
          simple enough I bet you could hand assemble everything except the SoM
          module.
          
          I don't think the reform could ever become "mainstream" but I don't
          think it really wants to, either. This could be great if, like you
          mentioned, it "takes off" and converts more regular laptop users to a
          more repairable laptop than their old ones. We'll see...
       
        auraham wrote 4 days ago:
        This seems to be a really great product. I understand many of its
        features may change in the future. However, I would like to see a spec
        sheet in the website. Also, I wonder what is the difference between the
        standard model and the DIY version.
        
        On the other hand, the interior and exterior of the laptop look
        gorgeous.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          At launch, the standard pre-built model and DIY have the same CPU
          options available.  DIY allows a broader range of memory and storage
          options, including bringing your own.  The pre-built offers Windows
          10 Home or Pro, while DIY offers those plus the option to ship
          without an OS installed.  Both versions allow Expansion Card
          selection at order time.
          
          Edit: And we will be sharing full spec sheets before we open
          pre-orders.
       
            aidenn0 wrote 4 days ago:
            Ironically I wish you launched a bit later; my laptop is only 3
            years old and it would be rather ironic were I to throw it out to
            move to something more sustainable.  I'll have to hope you succeed
            enough to still be around when it's 5-10 years old (or something
            breaks that I can't fix with the appropriate application of
            hot-air).
       
        james_pm wrote 4 days ago:
        Expansion cards = square dongles with USB-C connectors that plug into
        the frame.
       
        thewalkingbeard wrote 4 days ago:
        Why are these interesting niche laptops always so small?
       
        tablespoon wrote 4 days ago:
        > Designed for the future of work with a 13.5” 3:2 screen with
        2256x1504 resolution
        
        I approve of this.  16:9 computer screens are an abomination.
       
        markyc wrote 4 days ago:
        the only thing I'd ask for is a no fan version
       
          kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
          We have no no fan/low fan support on our firmware backlog - basically
          reducing the SOC TDP to the point where the laptop becomes a
          passively cooled and does not require the fan. So you can have
          performance when you want it, and silence when you want.
       
        Shared404 wrote 4 days ago:
        You have my attention. Will there be support for other processor
        architecture's at some point?
        
        Assuming this isn't vaporware, and is near as good as it sounds, this
        checks all the boxes I'd like for a laptop, esp. if it gets ARM and/or
        RISC support.
       
        yannikyeo wrote 4 days ago:
        Will there be a version of keyboard without the Windows logo?
       
        iFire wrote 4 days ago:
        Will you support Thunderbolt 3?
        
        The use of going portable and then docking in with a top of the line
        video card, monitor and proper keyboards is so exciting.
       
          kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
          We support USB4 - which has similar performance as thunderbolt 3.
          Multiple display pipes + USB + PCIE tunneling. It also supports
          40gbps of aggregate bandwidth per port.
          Tigerlake also supports HBR3 with display compression - so you can
          run multiple 4k displays from a single port.
       
            iFire wrote 4 days ago:
            USB4 is documented to be upward compatible with Thunderbolt 3.
            
            Thanks for the response.
            
            Will be wanting to try [1] on The Framework Laptop.
            
            Excited!
            
   URI      [1]: https://www.sonnettech.com/product/egfx-breakaway-box/over...
       
        malkia wrote 4 days ago:
        Huh, not sure but site was not available through my company's VPN. It
        works though outside of it.
       
        tromp wrote 4 days ago:
        What led framework to choose Intel CPUs over AMD ones?
        Did it simplify the design of the system?
       
          cpursley wrote 3 days ago:
          No AMD is an absolute deal breaker for me. Might as well get a mac.
       
          fiddlerwoaroof wrote 4 days ago:
          Yeah, if I’m getting another laptop with an Intel CPU, I’ll just
          get a Mac: a Ryzen 4XXX laptop with Mac-like build quality would make
          me reconsider.
       
          freeopinion wrote 4 days ago:
          A modular laptop that doesn't offer an AMD module? So, so close.
          
          Hopefully the AMD board will ship late Summer 2021. Lack of AMD
          support is a showstopper for some.
       
          chaosharmonic wrote 4 days ago:
          If I had to make an guess from how they're describing the I/O, USB4
          would be the immediate limitation.
       
            jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
            This would also suggest that once AMD gets their USB4 act together
            (hopefully starting with Rembrandt?), Mobile Ryzen should become an
            option.
       
          chaostheory wrote 4 days ago:
          This. I would bite if it was an AMD chip. Intel is just overpriced.
       
          CoolGuySteve wrote 4 days ago:
          Yeah it's too bad, if this laptop had a 16 thread AMD CPU, it would
          be exactly what I'm looking for: a 3lbs mobile workstation that I can
          service/upgrade myself.
       
        hamburglar wrote 4 days ago:
        The page about smart TVs makes me wonder if anyone has
        reverse-engineered the interface between a Samsung Frame TV’s main
        controller box and the panel that goes on the wall (it’s a remarkably
        thin cable that carries both the signal and power and can easily be
        fished through the wall).  I absolutely love the panel itself with its
        wonderful display characteristics, but the software that drives
        everything from the main controller box is such trash that I’ll
        probably never buy one again).    I’d happily buy a 3rd party box that
        would drive that display panel and be free of the buggy, spying, shitty
        UX that Samsung provides.
       
        stephen wrote 4 days ago:
        I know trackpads won, but would love a trackpoint. I keep buying
        Thinkpads solely for that feature.
       
          Liskni_si wrote 4 days ago:
          I don't use the trackpoint often on my ThinkPad, but I wouldn't buy a
          laptop without it. It's impossible to use the touchpad in a confined
          space such as an airplane (economy class) or a bus.
       
          maximzxc wrote 4 days ago:
          same for me
       
          bxparks wrote 4 days ago:
          How do I scroll a page up and down with a trackpoint (on Windows and
          Linux)? I've tried using a trackpoint, but the two-finger swipe up
          and down on a trackpad is a convenience that I cannot seem to live
          without.
       
            stephen wrote 3 days ago:
            Sure! I'm typing on this USB keyboard: [1] And to scroll I press
            the middle blue button (below space bar), and then push the
            trackpoint stick up/down. The mouse cursor doesn't move, and
            instead the OS just scrolls the window.
            
            (Fwiw I'm on Linux and this behavior just worked out of the box,
            for both my generic desktop w/this keyboard & Thinkpad laptop.)
            
            Obligatory fanboy note, while performing this scroll action, I only
            have to move my thumb ~0.5" off the space bar, and my pointer
            finger ~1" off "j". So there is very little physical movement
            required to scroll (or click), vs. moving your whole palm up & down
            ~6" to the trackpad.
            
   URI      [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-Keyboard-Tr...
       
              bxparks wrote 2 days ago:
              Hmm, the middle mouse button is bound to "paste text from buffer"
              on Linux (probably X11 more accurately), so I keep pasting random
              text into the edit box or terminal window. And if I click on that
              middle button, then change my mind about scrolling the window,
              then release that button, it pastes the buffer. It looks like I
              have to move the trackpoint just slightly to change my mind
              
              I don't know. Maybe people can be trained to workaround all this,
              but it seems very fragile and unintuitive to me. If there was a
              way to bind the middle button to one of the modifier keys (e.g.
              Alt, Ctrl, Shift, Fn, Super/Window), I can see that being a
              better UX. Then I can hit the modifier key, then change my mind
              without affecting anything.
       
            skavi wrote 4 days ago:
            there’s a scroll button iirc. You hold it down, and the
            trackpoint scrolls instead of moving the cursor.
       
          messo wrote 4 days ago:
          Same for me, but I can understand if it is hard to implement in the
          current design.
       
        skadamat wrote 4 days ago:
        This is super cool! Any plans to release a trackpad with the classic 2
        physical buttons?
       
        david927 wrote 4 days ago:
        Thank you so much for doing this.  It's really needed.
        
        I once had an HP Envy laptop which was so poorly made that I refuse to
        buy anything from HP again.
       
        intrasight wrote 4 days ago:
        This will only be "real" if an when there's an ecosystem of clones as
        happened with the original IBM PC. But it's definitely about time that
        we had such standards for laptops.
       
        samizdis wrote 4 days ago:
        Ars Technica has a sceptical but optimistic/hopeful take on it: [1]
        Edit to add quote from Ars article:
        
        Framework is promising an awful lot in its very first product—"thin
        as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" is a pretty tall
        order to live up to. We very much want to believe, but it's going to
        take a full Ars Technica teardown before we're completely convinced.
        
        Although we're skeptical, we are hopeful—the fledgling company does
        have a pretty solid pedigree. Framework founder Nirav Patel was Oculus
        VR's head of hardware from 2012 to 2017, and he was a Facebook director
        of engineering beyond that. The company's team also includes design,
        engineering, and operations people hailing from Apple, Google, and
        Lenovo.
        
   URI  [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/framework-startup-desi...
       
          Igelau wrote 3 days ago:
          > it's going to take a full Ars Technica teardown before we're
          completely convinced.
          
          Read: please send us a free one
       
          40four wrote 3 days ago:
          With all do respect,  but who gives a sh*t what Ars Technica thinks
          in regards to this?
          
          This project looks unbelievable! I am super excited for this, as many
          many others are too obviously. I’ll be honest I’m not even going
          to click on the Ars Technical article, their opinion couldn’t be
          less interesting to me.
          
          No doubt this company still has a lot to prove. Can they put their
          money where their mouth is? Remains to be seen.
          
          But the fact that there is a real company out there, making an
          attempt to build a product like this makes me so happy.
       
          waheoo wrote 3 days ago:
          I'm very hopefully for this company. I just hope they drop the
          passive aggressive "block" remarks.
          
          Maybe its me but I suspect they're referring to decade old ThinkPad
          that have since evolved a lot to thin performance beasts.
          
          Passive aggressive remarks towards things your target market holds
          nostalgia for is likely not going to end well.
          
          It's also setting themselves up for failure if their cooling solution
          doesn't beat a modern ThinkPads dual fan solution.
          
          The aluminium case is also extremely questionable. Is your target
          demo thinkpad users or Dell users that want to take things apart.
          Hate to break it to you but Dell users don't give a fuck. It's why
          they have a Dell. Most think pad users value plastic chassis. They're
          lighter (13" at 1.3kg, are you nuts?) more durable, and more
          palatable on your lap when they warm up they're also more cost
          effective.
       
            sanitycheck wrote 3 days ago:
            Hi, Dell Latitude user for 20+ years here. I buy them because
            they're easily upgradable and I can get parts after the (excellent)
            warranty expires. It's true I don't give a fuck about aluminium!
            
            Dell started soldering RAM in the past couple of years though, so
            if this thing exists when I next need to buy a laptop and it
            remotely justifies its high price I'd be interested.
       
          0xbadcafebee wrote 3 days ago:
          > The company's team also includes design, engineering, and
          operations people hailing from Apple, Google, and Lenovo.
          
          They should avoid the appeal to authority fallacy. Those companies
          hire tens of thousands of people each. Statistically speaking, half
          of them could be idiots. Just because I worked at Cisco doesn't mean
          I'm some product genius. (Hell, I came from an acquisition!)
       
          SnowProblem wrote 3 days ago:
          I went with a Thinkpad over a Macbook a couple years ago exactly for
          these goals - repairability and modularity - so this looks pretty
          amazing to me. Especially the modular ports. That said, the lack of a
          discrete GPU makes this a no-go for what I do. Does anyone know if a
          dGPU is planned, and also any pricing?
       
          agumonkey wrote 3 days ago:
          who else here had napkin design of just this ?
          
          now let's have a pocket variant that revives the old google modular
          project
       
          GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
          The XPS 13 was the first thing I thought of when I saw this - a
          repairable, upgradable, expandable XPS 13.
          
          What they are promising sounds awesome. And AS a Brit, that is not a
          word I use often :)
          
          I really, really hope this pans out, and this summer - this is
          something I'd very much like to get my hands on!
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          "thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" was not
          actually a direct quote from us, but it's nice that the folks at Ars
          think of our design that way!
       
            tw04 wrote 3 days ago:
            Any plans to support AMD chips?
       
            fock wrote 3 days ago:
            so compared to a run-of-the-mill Lenovo/HP/Dell - where I  still
            can get all parts 5 years after buying it - the innovation is that
            you have decoupled the I/O ports with your modules, which might
            reduce wear and failure there. Given that swapping the mainboard
            will probably just be as expensive for you as for the
            aforementioned devices (where some by Fujitsu even had standardized
            mainboards ;)) + you probably command a significant premium in the
            beginning: I really don't get the value/eco proposition except for
            reusing the frame/Display (the latter of which will eventually
            break as well).
            Do you at least plan to release schematics so people can try to
            understand failure modes of the actual things most of us without
            extensive resources can't repair today?
            
            ~ typed on a Lenovo T440s (4GB soldered RAM unfortunately): swapped
            the touchpad for the one from the 450s, replaced the fan, after it
            made noises, started with a tiny m.2-SATA, then upgraded to a spare
            SATA from the Desktop, updated the screen after it broke. Now the
            bottom shell has a dent in it (full backpack) but I think I'll let
            it pass. Still seems pretty repairable to me.
       
            TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
            Any chance you’d consider an ARM64 architecture in the future
            (like a Broadcom SOC)?
       
            k_sze wrote 3 days ago:
            I can’t stand small screens, so here’s me hoping you’ll make
            a 15” or 16” model with 4K screen soon after this one.
            
            Also looking forward to AMD or ARM instead of Intel.
       
            Waterluvian wrote 3 days ago:
            I really really really want this to be a real thing.
            
            Good luck!!!
       
            eecc wrote 3 days ago:
            Will you consider designing the chassis to be coffee-spill
            resistant? (if it's not already)
            
            Also, will you consider establishing an EU warehouse to reduce
            shipping and customs overhead?
       
            sydd wrote 3 days ago:
            I really like the concept, congrats on making it a product!
            
            For me I have 3 concerns:
            1. I'd never use a 13" laptop it's too small for work for me. Any
            chance of a 15" version? It'd be also cool if it could be used to
            light gaming (e.g. an Nvidia 1650 included)
            
            2. Pricing. If this will be priced as Macbook pros you will have a
            very niche segment as customers (basically silicon valley tech
            people)
            
            3. As I'm in the EU shipping needs to have a sane price (I can
            understand if this is not the priority at the start)
       
              hansel_der wrote 2 days ago:
              all valid concerns i would add my voice to allthou i'd say 14"
              screen is the sweetspot between portable and watching movies
       
            Alupis wrote 3 days ago:
            Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone?
            
            I, personally, am tired of the brushed aluminum with black bezels
            and keyboard look. The materials can remain the same, but some
            colored options would be wonderful - like the HP Spectre x360's
            with blue and black options, etc.
            
            Everything else looks wonderful, particularly the mobo upgrades for
            newer CPU/GPU combinations... and even better - getting to choose
            the ports I need! Love that!
       
              sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
              +1 to this, except I would like a plastic alternative to the
              aluminum in the case as well.
              
              While it's commendable that framework is picking those materials
              to environmentally conscious - I have had such terrible past
              experiences with "aluminum" body laptops triggering eczema
              outbreaks[1] - that I avoid metal cases as a rule now. [1]  
              TLDR: many metallic cases have nickel or cobalt present, and it
              releases when you sweat. Sometimes this triggers contact
              dermatitis (eczema) if you're sensitized to it.
              
   URI        [1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291384767_Aller...
       
                pedalpete wrote 3 days ago:
                Wouldn't a case or skin be a better solution to this than a
                plastic housing?
       
                  sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
                  I always worry about ventilation with cases, though that may
                  unwarranted depending on the particular case / skin. I was
                  cheap (and not sure if the laptop was my root issue at the
                  time), so I ended up putting duct tape over the area my
                  wrists touched, and that helped a lot. It looked pretty silly
                  though.
                  
                  That said, when I had the option to get a laptop where I
                  wouldn't have to think about it at all (plastic cased
                  thinkpad), I jumped for it. Maybe I've just developed a
                  deep-seated, emotional resentment for metal bodied laptops in
                  general after spending so long dealing with itchy/oozy hands,
                  wrists and forearms. Also all the doctors who just prescribed
                  steroid creams and blamed stress...
       
                    pedalpete wrote 3 days ago:
                    Yeah, I get it. I think plastic cases are going to be a
                    tough sell for a company looking to be environmentally
                    friendly. :)
                    
                    You're also not in the majority, but as I stated, I'd
                    prefer a non-metal looking laptop. I've got a Razer Blade
                    Stealth 13 which I had to put a skin on because it's a
                    fingerprint magnet. Skins really aren't that bad, and
                    they're designed to not block the vents.
       
                      Alupis wrote 3 days ago:
                      Unless you just want to put a skin on your laptop, this
                      feels like the whole "Rubber Band Antenna-gate" thing
                      from Apple years back. The device should work as-is
                      without some extra covering being required.
                      
                      Not everyone has skin allergies, but if you are mass
                      producing devices that will be in close contact with skin
                      for long durations, made with metals that are well known
                      to cause skin irritation - sooner or later you're going
                      to run into people that are affected.
       
                        sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
                        Additionally, due to the way that the allergic
                        sensitization process happens - many people only
                        develop a reaction after frequent, long-term exposure.
                        So it's very possible to use a metal laptop without
                        experiencing an issue for a long period of time, and
                        then to develop problems down the road. This, along
                        with the allergens sometimes being from contaminants in
                        the metals (so not listed and somewhat variable) -
                        makes it very hard to predict and to identify
                        afterward.
                        
                        So while I'm "rare", in that I know I've got an allergy
                        with a very noticeable reaction that can be triggered
                        by laptops - many people don't know that they are at
                        risk of developing it, even though they are. Or maybe
                        they know they have a nickel sensitivity (this issue is
                        very common with people who wear cheap jewelry) - but
                        they don't know a laptop can trigger it.
                        
                        Unless there's a big push to do some sort of widespread
                        contaminant testing on laptops, I imagine this issue
                        will grow if metal-body laptops continue to be the
                        norm.
       
              pbronez wrote 3 days ago:
              The website says the main bezel is magnetic, and can be replaced
              with various colors. Probably have to wait for future revisions
              before they do crazier designs... cloning Apple is a way to
              message the quality / price point they’re shooting for.
       
              reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
              Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone?
              
              If it came in certain tasteful colors, that would get my wife to
              switch from Apple to Linux.  (She works in the fashion industry.)
       
              hedora wrote 3 days ago:
              I’ll take one in all black, with a matte display; will
              definitely pay extra for oled with insanely good black levels. 
              :-)
       
              AceJohnny2 wrote 3 days ago:
              Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case"
              manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage.
              That's a wild guess though, I can imagine Apple keeping that
              tightly under their thumbs.
              
              Extra colors add cost. You have to plan for which colors might be
              popular, and which won't, in which case you'd have to sell at a
              discount to get rid of inventory. I'd be surprised if Framework
              offered that out of the gate.
       
                Judgmentality wrote 3 days ago:
                > Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case"
                manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to
                leverage.
                
                Apple literally has buildings filled with thousands of CNC
                machines milling aluminum laptop cases.
                
                Apple does not manufacture things the same way as the rest of
                the industry, as they have the money and the scale to do
                whatever the fuck they want.
                
   URI          [1]: https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture...
       
                  Waterluvian wrote 3 days ago:
                  And it shows. I've never had an aluminum laptop feel like a
                  macbook chassis. There's just something about the thickness?
                  Rigidity?
       
                    airbreather wrote 3 days ago:
                    I have Xaiomi mac like clone that was less than half the
                    price for same specs and the body is totally ridged
                    aluminum.
       
            samstave wrote 3 days ago:
            Just an anecdote on the value of modular and repairable hardware:
            
            Compaq vs Sun:
            
            I was the IT Director for Decide.com in ~1998-ish and we had a
            bunch of compaq servers and a bunch of SUN servers...
            
            At the time - SUN was *giving* servers to startups to adopt their
            HW.
            
            I had to build out a ton of systems in various DCs and the SUN
            machines were not rack-mountable, but were like $50,000 a unit...
            and they had this *security* feature where-by the machine would not
            boot up if the external case was not properly put on...
            
            BUT - I could rebuild a compaq server in the dark with my eyes
            closed. I had a compaq engineer who was delivering a replacement
            server and watched me rebuild that machine in no time.
            
            The thing was that the engineering of the compaqs was so consistent
            and well done that it took single digit minutes to rebuild an
            entire 4U machine vs the behemoth SUNS that bitched when their
            cover wasn't properly sealed.
       
              durst wrote 3 days ago:
              Very cool! Did others in the company appreciate the benefits of
              repairable hardware?
              
              Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. Was that price
              considered giving it away?
       
                samstave wrote 3 days ago:
                >>*Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. *
                
                OMG do you want to hear war stories about SGI?
                
                Turning SGI machines into keg-or-atores at Lucasfilm when
                consolodatiting to the presidio when all these Octanes and
                others were at ILM in Marin?
                
                Yeah - many a machine was turned into a bar...
                
                Heck the team building exercises at FB were to "build a bar for
                your team..."
       
                  durst wrote 2 days ago:
                  The closest I came to an SGI machine was an N64, so I would
                  be interested in hearing the stories. What did consolidating
                  the SGI boards get you? Didn't that cause thermal issues?
                  
                  Are Presidio and "the death star" you referenced above
                  related to RenderMan? I've done research on hardware for
                  image processing ( [1] ), so it's interesting to hear about
                  these systems.
                  
   URI            [1]: https://aetherling.org/
       
                reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
                $50,000 sounds like a lot of money
                
                For a server in the 90's, it sounds pretty cheap to me.
                
                Apple's Xserves started at $3,000, and I've read they were
                considered underpowered.  Sun was a premium company for heavy
                lifting.
                
                The company I worked for at the time was into Silicon Graphics,
                and those machines were five figures a pop just for desktops.
       
                  samstave wrote 3 days ago:
                  Dud, when I rebuilt Lucas Films into the presidio (I was one
                  of the tech designers on that project) - they had so many SGI
                  systems... they built Keg-arrators out of $150,000 machines
                  in moving.
                  
                  One small note on SGI - the 02 had a "feature' that cost you
                  ~$2500 extra for access to a particular port - can recall if
                  it was USB or Serial or what not, but you had to pay for this
                  port...
                  
                  But this port was just blocked by a plastic cover - EVERY
                  machine had this port/ but they were covered by a plastic
                  cover.
                  
                  The $FEE that you paid was to simply have SGI remove the
                  plastic cover on top of the port.
                  
                  The 02 was an extremely over priced piece of shit and the
                  only reason it existed was to have Softimage and Maya run on
                  MIPS
       
                    PascLeRasc wrote 3 days ago:
                    Was it analog video? I worked with a guy who loved SGI
                    systems and still had some back in 2016 and he said they
                    made analog video an option, but it was the same A/V add-on
                    card as analog audio so they just glued plastic caps over
                    the video ports if you didn't opt for it.
       
                      samstave wrote 3 days ago:
                      Lucas was the inventor of "offline video editing" --
                      which became a spin-off company called Avid.
                      
                      Avid was later based in seattle - but it was based on
                      tech that LucasFilm invented - as was CG rendering called
                      "the death star" which Steve Jobs bought from George for
                      $10,000,000 and turned it into pixar.
                      
                      George didnt think that CGI was going to be profitable,
                      hence selling to Jobs.
                      
                      Source: on the Presidio design team, I designed a
                      majority of their data center in that facility - and had
                      designed a cable interconnect matrix with the design
                      requirement that any given workstation in the
                      four-building facility could be made a render node when
                      the engineer was not at desk (so at night)
                      
                      Lots of crazy experiences from that --
                      
                      1. being asked why I couldnt provide power over fiber
                      
                      2. Being asked if I could design a facility in Singapore
                      because paying "us Prima donnas" was too expensive when
                      they could pay asian animators far less for the same work
                      
                      3. Having see them in-bed with Force 10 networks
                      
                      4. Seeing all their equipment stolen from the parking
                      garage after delivery but before installation into the
                      data-center by some construction guy
                      
                      5. Them turning down my initial datacenter design which
                      made it look like the inside of the death star. Telling
                      me they hated it.
                      
                      6. Watching the power struggle as the then CFO took
                      control of the empire as Lucas stepped away.
                      
                      7. Watching the distaste of all the employees as Lucas
                      sold for four billion dollars to disney, but his
                      accomplished and skilled staff got basically nothing
                      because they didnt own stock in the company they built
                      for lucas.
                      
                      Yeah - fuck george lucas.
       
                hedora wrote 3 days ago:
                First one’s free.
                
                Edit: in hindsight it was a terrible marketing strategy.  It
                meant that 100% of new customers had budget left over to spend
                on risky whitebox machines.
                
                I have fond memories of an AMD Linux cluster that ran circles
                around a Sun workstation.  The workstation cost 10x more than
                the entire cluster.
       
            Elof wrote 3 days ago:
            Really stoked for this. Good luck
       
            JustSomeNobody wrote 4 days ago:
            Good luck!  I really hope this works out. So excited.
       
            IQunder130 wrote 4 days ago:
            I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't
            a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the
            price is something I've been wanting for a long time.
       
              jameshart wrote 3 days ago:
              This does not look like a pathway to reduce the cost of your
              laptop by throwing out junk you don’t need. This looks like
              every part will be more expensive due to the focus on sustainable
              materials, e-waste and modularization. If you’re price-focused,
              are you really willing to pay a premium for ethical sourcing and
              repairability on the subset of components you want to populate
              your laptop with?
       
                Jeff_Brown wrote 3 days ago:
                The upgradeability could mean you save money in the long term
                even if each piece is substantially more expensive than its
                dispoable counterpart.
                
                Of course, asking people to trust that long-term calculus for a
                new product from a new company is nontrivial.
       
              bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
              Hmm, not that it's "something you don't need", per se, but
              
              > 4TB or more of Gen4 NVMe storage
              
              Suggests to me that this will be targeted at the "money is no
              object" market. (And it might still be something you don't need,
              I keep all my media on a server, so 1TB would be more than
              sufficient, thank you very much.)
       
              throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
              I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first
              issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem.
              
              EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop
              because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end
              trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never
              mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).
       
                pwthornton wrote 3 days ago:
                I honestly don't know how people use PC laptops without an
                external mouse. It's incredible that the trackpads are still so
                bad. Can you spend a ton of money on a PC laptop and get a
                decent one? I have assumed it has been an issue with just using
                cheap parts, and it being hard to get people to pay for premium
                parts on PC laptops.
       
                  aksss wrote 3 days ago:
                  They aren’t that bad, let’s be real. Try the latest XPS
                  13, the trackpad is more than fine. Maybe not Apple great,
                  but it’s perfectly fine. I could point to earlier
                  makes/models that were fine too. It’s not going to make or
                  break your decision on PC/Mac if you have Apple money to
                  spend on a PC.
       
                neverminder wrote 3 days ago:
                My Dell Precision 7750 touchpad works flawlessly and I'm
                running Ubuntu. The touchpad is optimal size, similar to that
                of Apple's I think. It also has 3 physical buttons, middle
                click is my favorite which by default is configured to open a
                link in a new tab. Multipoint touch and gestures work fine as
                well, at least those that I use - two finger touch for right
                click menu and two finger gesture for scrolling. Because it's a
                rather new touchpad by Dell, Initially the physical right
                button didn't work, which was a bit annoying, but eventually
                the problem was solved with kernel update.
       
                getcrunk wrote 3 days ago:
                Have you used an xps? I really like my trackpad. Haven't use
                apple's
       
                  cam-perry wrote 3 days ago:
                  I have both laptops and both touchpads are really nice.
                  Though Apple's is nicer for being bigger and I prefer their
                  materials to the XPS.
                  
                  If you run linux on the XPS this project ( [1] ) is great for
                  configuring multi-touch gestures that work like the Mac.
                  
   URI            [1]: https://github.com/iberianpig/fusuma
       
                  taneq wrote 3 days ago:
                  I've used both (albeit the Mac was a 2010 Macbook Pro so they
                  may have changed - the Dell is a 2019 XPS13 and is my current
                  travel laptop) and I'd rate them roughly on par. The Macbook
                  had slightly better accidental touch rejection iirc (eg. if
                  you brush the touchpad while reaching for the keys to type)
                  and slightly nicer build quality. The XPS is really nice
                  though.
       
                  syspec wrote 3 days ago:
                  Have you used an Apple? Really like my trackpad. 
                  Haven't used XPS
       
                RileyJames wrote 3 days ago:
                Definitely felt the same way moving from MacBook Air to XPS
                (under linux), but eventually I found the right settings to
                completely remove accidental touches on the pad while typing
                and since then, pretty good, not bad, can’t complain. Cause
                actually, all them track pads are about the same.
       
                sudosteph wrote 3 days ago:
                I'll be honest, I've used a laptop as a primary computing
                device my whole life - and I have no idea what a "sane
                touchpad" would even be. They really are so frequently bad that
                I can't imagine what a good one would be like. I mostly use PCs
                (often with Linux), but used a mac for work for while - and I
                can't really say I saw the appeal in that touchpad either.
                Besides issues that come from low-quality pads + linux drivers
                (ghost mouse movements as I type, stupid imprecision from weird
                acceleration setting) - I don't like the way that most touch
                pads feel cold and metallic, and how they always attract dust
                you can feel as you use.
                
                My solution has always been to just keep a wireless mouse with
                rechargable AA's in my backpack. If I'm using my laptop on a
                couch at home, I have a wooden lap desk with ample mouse space
                to accommodate it.
                
                Additionally, the thinkpad I have now has both an eraser mouse
                and touch screen + stylus (as well as a trackpad), so if I do
                have to leave my mouse at home, I at least have options. I like
                the eraser mouse because I don't have to move my fingers away
                from the keyboard - and even if it feels it takes slightly
                longer to move - it's more pleasant tactile experience for me.
       
                  solraph wrote 3 days ago:
                  I'm with you on this one. I just find them incredibly
                  difficult to use long term, despite multiple years across the
                  various Macs and PC laptops I've used.
                  
                  I strongly suspect most of the complaints about PC trackpads
                  are a bit like Windows/Linux/Mac users complaining about the
                  current font rendering on any of the others. I can't help
                  wondering how much is just personal preference + a bit of
                  echo chamber.
       
                    withmorten wrote 3 days ago:
                    Well actually, Win10 font rendering is broken, i.e. 1 and l
                    look completely the same on Courier New on Win10, but not
                    on Win7 ... there are years old bug reports (it broke in
                    some feature update), but of course those have been
                    ignored.
       
                nkrisc wrote 3 days ago:
                For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a
                MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what
                Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware,
                software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never
                buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad
                as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a
                personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be
                the best.
       
                  d0100 wrote 2 days ago:
                  Try looking for a laptop that doesn't have the terrible
                  chiclet-style keys, it's impossible. Mac included
       
                  pwdisswordfish0 wrote 3 days ago:
                  The hardware + software configuration for the majority of
                  touchpads I've used on Chromebooks are on par or better than
                  MacBook touchpads.  It's just that people pretend they don't
                  exist, whether in consumer complaints comparing MacBooks to
                  everything else, or by the people responsible for
                  freedesktop-based software who themselves continue purchasing
                  terrible hardware and keep the software (drivers, userspace
                  apps, etc) in the same sad state that it's always been in
                  instead of copying what's happening with Chromebooks.
                  
                  Look at Firefox for an example of the latter.  I'm typing
                  this on a Chromebook intended to run ChromeOS, but it's
                  actually running Ubuntu.  The touchpad experience from the
                  factory is as good as it should be.  When you wipe the
                  machine and install Ubuntu and use Chrome, it's still pretty
                  good.  Running Firefox on the same system gives you its same
                  janky scroll behavior that you get anywhere else that isn't a
                  MacBook, for no good reason.
                  
                  People act like there's some yet-to-be-understood law of
                  nature that make MacBook touchpads good and everything else
                  bad.  This is demonstrably false.  We have existence proofs
                  to the contrary.
       
                  mnsc wrote 3 days ago:
                  Am I really that unique in never having used the trackpad on
                  a laptop at all, other than a last resort being forced to use
                  some weird non-Lenovo thing without a nipple?
                  
                  Always an external mouse in the backpack and the nipple as a
                  fallback.
       
                    dmt0 wrote 2 days ago:
                    It's just that you've never had a laptop with a usable
                    trackpad. I also carried a mouse when I had a Thinkpad.
       
                      KptMarchewa wrote 23 hours 1 min ago:
                      I had macbook for two years and used external mouse way
                      more than with my new thinkpad.
                      
                      That thing on a macbook is so absurdly large that it's
                      impossible to type without cursor doing some action.
       
                  brailsafe wrote 3 days ago:
                  There are so many people responding with incredulity to the
                  fact that pc laptop makers haven't come up with a good
                  Trackpad, but to me the reason is evident in the first
                  interaction you have with any pc laptop manufacturer. Show me
                  a pc laptop website that isn't an absolute horrific fucking
                  mess, then find me a product on that website that doesn't
                  look like a stupid broken plastic box thing, and then maybe
                  we can start talking about trackpads. These companies
                  seemingly  want people to buy arbitrary products off the
                  shelf and NEVER return. I'll grant that there may be a few
                  notable exceptions, probably Razer is one, but the rest are
                  abominations.
       
                  KozmoNau7 wrote 3 days ago:
                  The best trackpad I've used was on the Tegra K1-based Acer
                  Chromebook 13. It had a good size for multi-touch gestures
                  and was just really well integrated. Combined with a nice
                  low-friction surface and a positive click, I still haven't
                  found its equal.
                  
                  In fact, that line of chromebooks had the best overall
                  package. Slim, but very sturdy plastic body, a surprisingly
                  good keyboard, ~10 hour battery life. The 13" FHD screen was
                  OK, but not amazing, I would have liked an IPS panel instead
                  of TN.
                  
                  The major downside is that it was a 32-bit ARM-based
                  chromebook and everyone was going 64-bit x86 instead. So it
                  got slower and slower with each successive update, eventually
                  it couldn't even play 1080p Youtube videos anymore, or even
                  720p60. Such a shame.
       
                  TheRealSteel wrote 3 days ago:
                  "I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both"
                  
                  The gulf continues to be so big that after so much time of
                  nobody else even appearing to try to compete, I assume it's
                  patents.
       
                  enw wrote 3 days ago:
                  I'm guessing a big reason why it has never been prioritized
                  is due to the difficulty of quantifying the impact of great
                  trackpad UX (and as a result, the negative impact of the
                  shitty trackpad UX every non-Apple device offers). Higher-ups
                  don't like things that aren't easily quantified.
       
                    pwdisswordfish0 wrote 3 days ago:
                    Fan noise is the same.    I bought a machine from a Linux
                    laptop vendor.    At the time of purchase, I raised my
                    concerns about the risk of ultimately ending up
                    disappointed when it arrived (particularly how pricey it
                    was).  They insisted that I would be happy, and that it
                    would be much better than my 5 year old laptop that I was
                    replacing.
                    
                    Not only was that not the case, it was worse than my own
                    pessimism that I started with.
                    
                    The fan noise and the trackpad were so bad to the point
                    that it felt like a joke, even though I knew it wasn't. 
                    People are just oblivious to this stuff and march onward
                    none the wiser, even the people who should be doing things
                    like comparative analysis on quality against their
                    competitors' products.
       
                      runamok wrote 1 day ago:
                      I bought a Vostro 5301 (13" with 11th gen intel cpu) and
                      the fan ran All. The. Time.
                      
                      I returned it after doing all the windows and driver
                      updates, choosing "quiet mode" in the Dell Power
                      Management software. The fan would kick on while cpu
                      strolled along at 10 or 15%. Replaced it with an xps 13
                      which has been fine. (I have had several xps so decided
                      to chance it).
       
                    jack_riminton wrote 3 days ago:
                    It’s an interesting point. There must be some metrics
                    i.e. latency, accuracy that a trackpad can be measured by
                    
                    Perhaps it needs to be a score via a user test e.g click
                    these small randomly appearing boxes in the shortest time
                    possible
       
                      numpad0 wrote 3 days ago:
                      I remember Wacom bragging about corporate secret
                      quantitative measurement methodologies in Surface 3-4
                      era, but what completely solved pen computing stagnation
                      was Microsoft dropping them completely and Apple Pencil
                      casually stepping in, so,
       
                    Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
                    Don't understand the downvotes. I believe that it's exactly
                    this. It's an industry where you can point to a
                    competitor's machine and compare gigahertz and megapixels
                    and terabytes and gigaflops and build press releases on
                    those numbers, where an industry leader tries to make a
                    point with "It doesn't run Rocket League!", where
                    manufacturers like Dell can put a nice touchpad in one
                    machine and then build twelve awful ones a year later
                    because they have so many models on so many markets that no
                    one is even able to say with confidence why certain models
                    have been more popular than others.
                    
                    Design and UX-wise, the current laptop market is a shitshow
                    and Apple seems to be the only company that consistently
                    cares about the little things. Sure, they've messed up in
                    the past (butterfly keyboards), but there is still a sense
                    of progress.
       
                  Something1234 wrote 3 days ago:
                  I really don't get what is so special about all of these
                  trackpad debates. Honestly if my trackpad can do a 2 finger
                  scroll I'm happy. Worst trackpad I've used was on my x201,
                  and was only terrible because it was tiny and insensitive.
       
                    nkrisc wrote 1 day ago:
                    I'm a designer, and even on my work issued Macbook I had no
                    issue using design programs like Sketch or Figma with the
                    trackpad. It was really effortless and sometimes even after
                    I got back to my desk where I had a mouse I'd still be
                    using the trackpad for an hour after without even really
                    realizing, it's that good.
                    
                    It even feels amazing, physically. It's smooth and your
                    finger just glides right over it and still registers the
                    touch with barely any pressure. The combination of the
                    hardware, the size, and the software (drivers, OS, whatever
                    else) is just the best I've ever used. Best of all, it's
                    like that right out of the box.
                    
                    For laptops, at least, I'm solidly Apple for the trackpad
                    alone, I like it that much.
       
                    dmt0 wrote 2 days ago:
                    It's very simple. Use an MBP for a few months, then switch
                    back to another laptop and just see how long you last. I
                    never used a trackpad at all until I got an MBP - always a
                    mouse. Can't go back to that now. The one on MBP feels like
                    a finely tuned instrument that does exactly what you mean
                    it to do.
       
                    Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
                    Would you consider using one of the trackpads you're happy
                    with INSTEAD of a mouse? For non-precision work, that is.
                    Browsing, navigating an IDE, clicking around the OS, stuff
                    like that. In an emergency anything that does a two finger
                    scroll and registers a click is okay, but would you enjoy
                    using it for eight hours every day? Apple will confidently
                    sell you a $5000 desktop machine with just their trackpad,
                    because it is that good.
       
                      ForHackernews wrote 3 days ago:
                      > Apple will confidently sell you a $5000 desktop machine
                      with just their trackpad, because it is that good.
                      
                      I mean... Apple will also "confidently" sell you four
                      little castor wheels for 700 quid[0]. I'm not sure we
                      should view their eagerness to take money off you as a
                      sign of how great they are.
                      
                      [0]
                      
   URI                [1]: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/...
       
                  jonnycomputer wrote 3 days ago:
                  It is true. Or at least, in my experience, I have no data to
                  contradict this.
       
                  mekster wrote 3 days ago:
                  It's funny that PC and Android can never reach the smoothness
                  of Apple's touch pad and screen scroll when it's really the
                  basic thing of computer usage where it matters.
                  
                  Apple did it right 15 years ago and why do others still suck
                  at it?
       
                    rStar wrote 3 days ago:
                    they don’t care. i’d love for someone to defend the
                    idea that for all these years, microsoft has really wanted
                    us to have first class touchpad experiences on their
                    laptops, but they just couldn’t figure it out. A problem
                    too hard, a bridge too far, an unattainable moonshot for
                    however many hundreds of thousands of software engineers
                    microsoft has employed over the years. so, once again, the
                    reason it’s only that good on mac is because no one cares
                    in the windows world, from microsoft to their developers
                    and ultimately their customers who don’t value that
                    feature. edit: i spend most of my life in linux but I have
                    a mbp for photoshop and capture one. on many topics I hate
                    my mac with a cold fury but credit where it’s due.
       
                  vagrantJin wrote 3 days ago:
                  > I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that
                  has a trackpad as good or better
                  
                  Funny that
                  
                  Commenting on a thread about a non-apple laptop that you'll
                  never buy a Non apple laptop.
                  
                  That is true and unadultered fanboyism.
       
                    rkangel wrote 3 days ago:
                    This is the best place to talk about that. There may be
                    multiple suppliers of trackpads for the Framework and so
                    they GP might finally have some choice.
       
                    Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
                    Where's the fanboyism in that?
                    They were commenting on a post about how most PC touchpads
                    suck and that for some people a great touchpad is a
                    requirement, the absence of which would prevent them from
                    buying other laptops, such as the Framework Laptop.
       
                      vagrantJin wrote 3 days ago:
                      > for some people a great touchpad is a requirement,
                      
                      The touchpad. Nothing else. Just the touchpad?
                      
                      I'm not given to hyperbole but methinks there's a lot of
                      info and technical requirements that go into purchasing
                      an expensive item such as a laptop. Screen size and
                      quality, keyboard quality, ports, batter life, weight,
                      performance, looks - oh you know...normal stuff.
                      
                      At least for us normal people. Maybe my mistake was
                      there.
       
                        jaegerpicker wrote 3 days ago:
                        Where did he say that was the ONLY requirement? It's
                        possibly the most important for him but unlikely to be
                        the only requirement.
       
                        Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
                        A requirement, not THE [single] requirement. English
                        isn't my first language but I believe that what I wrote
                        is clear enough and you're playing dumb for some
                        reason.
       
                  zitterbewegung wrote 3 days ago:
                  I think that since they manufacture so many other touch
                  devices that the software, data and or expertise in designing
                  those devices transfers over into touchpads.
       
                    philistine wrote 3 days ago:
                    Apple had the best trackpads in the industry before they
                    made the iPhone. That company just values good laptop
                    design; after all, they invented it.
       
                      ngc248 wrote 3 days ago:
                      They invented what? laptops?
       
                        philistine wrote 3 days ago:
                        Yup. The Powerbook 100 series is the first laptop with
                        the classic clamshell design we all know.
       
                        bitwize wrote 3 days ago:
                        They invented good laptop design. Up until 2011, most
                        laptops were shitty clones of the PowerBook Duo in
                        terms of design. After 2011, most laptops became shitty
                        clones of the MacBook Air.
       
                  tomp wrote 3 days ago:
                  Funny you say that. I'm a long-time MacBook Pro user, that
                  migrated to Microsoft (!) Surface Go (!!) running Windows 10
                  (!!!) recently. Not only is the OS tolerable (after I figured
                  how to prevent crashes ... I mean, automatic updates) and the
                  device more convenient than any I've used before (a real
                  computer in the iPad form factor), the trackpad is amazing as
                  well, I truly don't notice any difference with MacBook Pro
                  trackpad!
       
                  LeifCarrotson wrote 3 days ago:
                  I care a lot too - but I care about a lot of other features,
                  too, and refuse to buy Apple.
                  
                  My conclusion was to disable the trackpad and always carry an
                  external mouse.  I do a lot of CAD work and there's nothing
                  that compares to a real mouse for speed and precision.
                  
                  I'll use my Trackpoint nib in a pinch, but the trackpad
                  ecosystem is so bad that I just write it off entirely. Yeah,
                  keeping a mouse on hand is annoying, but it's like a physical
                  keyboard: Would you ever buy a laptop where you had to input
                  reams of text with a touchscreen keyboard? No, that's absurd,
                  keyboards are a necessary part of a computer. Would you ever
                  buy a trackpad for a desktop PC? I wouldn't, I'd use a mouse.
       
                    nkrisc wrote 2 days ago:
                    That's fair, but on my personal computer when I'm lounging
                    on the couch, a mouse isn't going to cut it. I'm also
                    talking specifically about laptops. Apple laptops have the
                    best trackpad experience I've ever used. So my personal
                    laptops will always be Apple until I find something better.
       
                    bitwize wrote 3 days ago:
                    Apple users buy Apple trackpads for their desktop. The
                    Apple trackpad experience is better than a typical mouse,
                    even when it comes to speed and precision.
                    
                    That's what happens when you're the most successful
                    technology company in the world, and you hire the best
                    engineers in the world and laser-focus them on thr user
                    experience.
       
                    sings wrote 3 days ago:
                    Not to dismiss your comment - my partner is an architect
                    and also swears by the mouse to navigate in 3D - but I got
                    an external trackpad when getting an external keyboard (to
                    replace my poorly performing MacBook keyboard) and I have
                    preferred the trackpad to a mouse for sometime. This is
                    from someone who spends a lot of time in design software. I
                    don’t think this is uncommon, either, although I’m not
                    sure.
       
                  mumblemumble wrote 3 days ago:
                  I think it's got to be a little bit of both. My experience
                  has been that the trackpad experience with Win10 on a MacBook
                  is poor, and the trackpad experience on a hackintosh is also
                  poor.
                  
                  I realize a sibling poster had a different hackintosh
                  experience. I think that maybe supports my suspicion. Good
                  hardware and good software are both necessary, but not
                  sufficient, conditions of a good overall experience.
       
                  gburdell3 wrote 3 days ago:
                  It has to be software. I have a ThinkPad that I recently
                  installed macOS on (not advocating hackintosh, but it's a fun
                  project nonetheless) and the trackpad feels every bit as good
                  as a real Mac. Smooth scrolling, smooth gesture recognition,
                  everything just feels good. The hardware is capable of
                  processing the gestures, but the non-Apple software just does
                  a terrible job of making it feel good to use.
       
                    dakial1 wrote 3 days ago:
                    It it software. As they did to ios, the MacOs has highest
                    priority to all interface actions.That's why the scrolling
                    on ios and MacOs is usually very smooth. The interface get
                    the highest priority so if the computer is struggling with
                    lots of simulaneous processes, the interface still will
                    feel smooth. Very smart solution to prioritize UX. Why they
                    didn't do the same on windows/android? No idea.
       
                      dmt0 wrote 2 days ago:
                      Also good defaults. In fact they don't even have certain
                      settings in MacOS. For example you can't change the
                      pointer acceleration, but the default one is just
                      perfect.
       
                    PragmaticPulp wrote 3 days ago:
                    I suspect the key software is in the firmware of the
                    trackpad itself. The hardware does a lot of processing of
                    the raw signals before it hands the data to the trackpad
                    driver. The driver does additional processing, of course,
                    but this also means that alternate trackpad implementations
                    need more than just the right driver code. The firmware
                    plays a key role.
       
                      naikrovek wrote 3 days ago:
                      > I suspect the key software is in the firmware of the
                      trackpad itself.
                      
                      What your parent comment (the comment you replied to)
                      said refutes the reply you made.
                      
                      They installed OSX on a ThinkPad, and observed the
                      desired OSX-like trackpad behavior.  Apple does not write
                      firmware for thinkpad pointing devices, so it cannot be
                      firmware-specific behavior.
       
                      fpoling wrote 3 days ago:
                      I have Intel MacBook Pro and the behavior of trackpad
                      under Windows in BootCamp is just terrible while in a
                      Windows VM or on a remote Windows desktop it is almost as
                      good as on Mac. So I doubt it is in firmware.
       
                    hamburglar wrote 3 days ago:
                    It’s definitely not just software. If you connect an
                    Apple Magic Trackpad to a Linux machine running X, it works
                    way, way better than the garbage that’s built into most
                    PC laptops.
                    
                    Also note that Lenovo itself has a huge variation in
                    trackpad quality.  My relatively new thinkpad
                    (thinkpad-branded but I think the model number was yoga
                    360) from work has a trackpad that is just barely usable. 
                    My personal yoga c740 has a trackpad that is actually
                    pretty nice and gets close to MBP quality when it comes to
                    movement/accuracy (it does still lack gestures and good
                    right-click support though, and that is likely a software
                    issue).
                    
                    I really hope these guys pick good trackpads.  I can
                    grudgingly live with a stunted feature set (gestures etc)
                    for now because I know X makes it  difficult or impossible
                    to get right, but I absolutely cannot abide a trackpad that
                    feels shitty and inaccurate just for moving the mouse
                    around.
       
                      garmaine wrote 3 days ago:
                      This is true, although it is probably because of the
                      software being built into the trackpad itself.
       
                  anuragsoni wrote 3 days ago:
                  > That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I
                  always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best.
                  
                  100%. On my personal devices I don't want to compromise on
                  trackpad or keyboards (I like that apple went back on the
                  butterfly keyboards).
                  
                  The rest of my comment is just my personal experience so take
                  it with a grain of salt. I've found the trackpad experience
                  on the XPS and Thinkpad X1 laptops to be excellent under
                  linux. The libinput [1] drivers seem to work really well and
                  the gesture support seems nice too. What I miss from
                  MacBook's touchpad is force-touch. Not having to worry about
                  which part of the touchpad i'm pressing was really nice when
                  I used a macbook.
                  
                  I'm contemplating purchasing a m1 macbook air as my next
                  laptop, but I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on
                  being able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my
                  own money.
                  
   URI            [1]: https://github.com/wayland-project/libinput
       
                    TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
                    > I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on being able
                    to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my own money.
                    
                    May I suggest sponsoring Hector Martin on GitHub[0]? He’s
                    working on building first-class support for the M1
                    architecture (including drivers) into Linux.
                    
                    [0]
                    
   URI              [1]: https://github.com/marcan
       
                      rfoo wrote 3 days ago:
                      Caveat: may not include an awesome trackpad driver.
       
                        coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
                        If it includes a GPU driver, then the trackpad driver
                        is trivial compared to that.
                        
                        Actually manufacturing the trackpad hardware might be
                        difficult/expensive, but since that's already a given,
                        the driver can be tweaked in tons of ways to fit the
                        regular macOS experience...
       
                          ankka wrote 3 days ago:
                          Doing output is trivial compared to properly handling
                          any type of free-form user input.
       
                            coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
                            A GPU driver for a new undocumentated architecture
                            is "trivial" compared to properly doing an input
                            driver for a touchpad?
                            
                            You make "properly handling any type of free-form
                            user input" sound like rocket science, when it's
                            the regular multi-touch kind of driver we have on
                            billions of mobiles, and laptops...
                            
                            The "properly" here is just the sauce for macOS
                            handling, not some inherent difficulty of "handling
                            any type of free-form user input" on a 2D
                            surface...
       
                              auggierose wrote 3 days ago:
                              It's because there is no great trackpad support
                              outside the Mac. But there is good GPU support.
                              So it seems, getting great trackpad support IS
                              rocket science currently, for whatever reason. (I
                              also wonder, what is going on there? I guess
                              people on the other platforms just don't care
                              about this detail, otherwise they would be on the
                              Mac anyway).
       
                                aksss wrote 3 days ago:
                                There are a lot of crappy trackpads on crappy
                                PC laptops, but the ones on the high-end
                                laptops are quite serviceable even if not the
                                ideal version that Apple created. With a
                                serviceable trackpad, the other benefits of
                                having a PC over a Mac tend to far outweigh the
                                trackpad (for people that value what a PC
                                brings).
       
                                  auggierose wrote 2 days ago:
                                  Yes, I understand that, I am just not getting
                                  my head around why for example Windows is so
                                  bad with a trackpad either. I mean, how tough
                                  would it be for Microsoft to nail this if
                                  they cared?
       
                                    aksss wrote 2 days ago:
                                    They probably don't see it as their job.
                                    The fact that trackpad quality varies
                                    between makes/models implies that it's both
                                    a hardware and a software problem, the
                                    latter probably being drivers. Maybe there
                                    is something in the OS that hampers it
                                    though, I don't know. Would be interesting
                                    to hear from engineers at the OEMs.
                                    Frankly, when I read these comments about
                                    the problems of PC trackpads, it's like a
                                    foreign language to me. Problems with
                                    gestures, multi-touch or palm strikes.. I
                                    can't recall the last time I had a PC
                                    laptop with those problems. My XPS 2-in-1
                                    9310 sits in a bag across the room and am
                                    typing on a four-five year old Lenovo right
                                    now, neither of which have any such
                                    problems. What I notice on the wife's MBP
                                    trackpad is the feel (glass) and the (good)
                                    lack of physical movement in trackpad -
                                    this lenovo is clearly a momentary switch
                                    and at the very upper end of the pad the
                                    force to needed to click is tougher, but it
                                    hardly matters. A tap accomplishes the same
                                    thing that a physical click does and is
                                    probably how I engage it most often. I'm
                                    just not sure it's as big a problem with
                                    decently-built PC laptops as people make it
                                    out to be. PC hardware has a lot more going
                                    for it that overshadows the delta between a
                                    99% trackpad and a 94% trackpad. Things
                                    like a touchscreen, active digitizers,
                                    tablet modes, escape keys, function keys,
                                    facial recognition, variety.
       
                                      auggierose wrote 1 day ago:
                                      I will never need a touchscreen in my
                                      laptop. That's what my iPad is for, which
                                      I can connect to my laptop, by the way.
                                      Function keys I've last used in the
                                      previous millennium, and I've got an
                                      escape key, thank you very much. My
                                      laptop automatically unlocks via my
                                      watch. But yes, I expect facial
                                      recognition to come to the Mac very soon,
                                      too.
                                      
                                      And I've never used a PC trackpad with
                                      satisfaction rate of > 30% ;-) They are
                                      all shite.
                                      
                                      I guess it is just a matter of
                                      preference. As I said, if you care about
                                      the trackpad, you will never touch a PC
                                      laptop. If you don't, you think you have
                                      a 94% trackpad, and that it doesn't
                                      matter.
       
                                        aksss wrote 1 day ago:
                                        >I will never need a touchscreen in my
                                        laptop
                                        
                                        We'll see how that ages, but rock on
                                        with your mac.
       
                                          auggierose wrote 1 day ago:
                                          It's been that way for over a decade.
                                          It aged pretty well.
                                          
   URI                                    [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watc...
       
                                tibbetts wrote 3 days ago:
                                I imagine getting the trackpad right is either
                                a giant pile of heuristic rules, or a nice
                                tagged data set for ML, or both, maybe with a
                                side of online learning from usage. A trackpad
                                that automatically does the right thing for me
                                coding, my 12 year old gaming, and my 8 year
                                old with sloppy fine motor control does seem
                                like rocket science to me.
       
                          TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
                          Apple’s trackpad driver is massive, I think. Do not
                          underestimate the amount of detailed work that went
                          into it.
       
                          rfoo wrote 3 days ago:
                          True, but then why don't we have awesome Linux
                          trackpad drivers for Intel Macbooks?
       
                            Siira wrote 2 days ago:
                            We don’t even have them for Bootcamp.
       
                            coldtea wrote 3 days ago:
                            Isn't there a 1-2 year old project that claims to
                            have made great trackpad driver behavior in Linux?
                            
                            I think this is the case I remember:
                            
   URI                      [1]: https://bill.harding.blog/2020/04/26/linux...
       
                    anuragsoni wrote 3 days ago:
                    I didn't mention this in my comment, but i use wayland on
                    linux and i've found the touchpad experience to be nicer
                    there compared to X11, even though both X11 and wayland
                    sessions for Gnome use libinput. I don't know much about
                    libinput to know why I feel a difference in my touchpad
                    experience between X11 and wayland.
       
                mottosso wrote 3 days ago:
                I felt that way until I got my hands on a Surface Book. They
                did a good job on that one, still holding up after 4+ years of
                constant use.
       
                  thw0rted wrote 6 hours 8 min ago:
                  Seconded.  I couldn't stand using a touchpad at all until I
                  got a Surface Book 2 for work.    It's now the standard to
                  which I hold all other touchpads.
       
                  Groxx wrote 3 days ago:
                  Yeah, the surface line seems to have quite-acceptable
                  trackpads.  I have an SP4, and the keyboard-cover's is... a
                  bit strange to the touch (highly textured), but works
                  reliably.
                  
                  Unlike so many other brands.  The vast majority I've used
                  have been an endless stream of frustration and flakiness.
       
                    ImaCake wrote 3 days ago:
                    I have an SP4 as well and enjoyed the touchpad on it. I
                    don't think it is as good as the macbook one, but the
                    surface makes up for this with the touch screen. I would
                    often mix it up between screen and touchpad touches to
                    navigate and I miss it now I am using a macbook.
       
                      Groxx wrote 3 days ago:
                      Yea, I'm not actually all that fond of the SP4, but it
                      has utterly convinced me that touchpad + touchscreen is
                      massively superior to either one alone.  It's so natural
                      feeling.
       
                  fortran77 wrote 3 days ago:
                  I'm using a Surface Book 2 right now, and it's -- by far --
                  the best laptop I've ever owned.
       
                zerocrates wrote 3 days ago:
                I feel like the XPS 13 trackpad is fine, what's your beef with
                it?
       
                  arsome wrote 3 days ago:
                  Yeah, I'm not sure about any of this, I grew up with PC
                  trackpads, used them on Linux all the time and other than a
                  few annoyances with accidentally tripping the trackpad when
                  typing, never had a problem with them. The Macbook actually
                  took quite a bit of time to get used to and many settings had
                  to be adjusted (looking at you backwards scrolling).
                  
                  In fact, I think I like the trackpad on my cheap Logitech
                  K400 just as much as the Macbook, I'd be hard pressed to
                  point to a significant problem with either.
       
                    ryukafalz wrote 3 days ago:
                    Do you use gestures at all? I have both a MacBook Pro (for
                    work) and a Logitech K400+. Two-finger scrolling on the MBP
                    is fine; light pressure on the touchpad is enough to scroll
                    very smoothly. Two-finger scrolling on my X230 is also
                    fine, if a bit jumpy - I can at least keep my place while
                    I'm scrolling, and it still takes only light pressure to
                    recognize the gesture.
                    
                    Two-finger scrolling on the K400+ is painful. (Actually
                    physically painful; I have RSI in my right arm and
                    poorly-tracking touchpads can be a trigger.) It requires
                    fairly heavy pressure on the touchpad to trigger gestures
                    consistently (though they can be triggered inconsistently
                    with light pressure which is also frustrating). And
                    especially on macOS, it's difficult to actually scroll a
                    consistent distance with a two-finger gesture with the
                    K400+.
                    
                    I'm fairly certain this has to do with the K400+'s touchpad
                    not being recognized as a touchpad by the OS. The device is
                    instead emitting mouse wheel events in firmware when a
                    two-finger scroll gesture is detected. macOS will then, of
                    course, apply mouse wheel acceleration, which makes sense
                    for some mice but absolutely does not make sense for a
                    touchpad.
       
                  bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
                  XPS trackpads have always been number one, from the very
                  beginning. I'm working with a 10 year old laptop and its
                  trackpad has performed flawlessly and is superior to any
                  MacBook I've ever used (but especially older ones).
                  
                  My XPS has the advantage of two physical buttons for left and
                  right click. They require just the right amount of force to
                  press (like a slightly softer mouse button with deeper
                  travel). It makes dragging things around (which I do a lot
                  because I don't use a tiling window manager) very easy. Which
                  doesn't feel like something I should have to comment on, but
                  doing this on a MacBook is pure suffering. Trying to hold
                  down the giant button (which takes quite a bit of force)
                  while trying to drag your finger... ugh. It's miserable.
                  Because of the physical buttons I can actually play some
                  games on my XPS without needing an external mouse (or putting
                  up with misclicks)
                  
                  In terms of hardware, what people are looking for is mostly
                  surface feel, size, features. It's the former where cheap
                  laptops fall down. Most of the ones I've used really suck,
                  actually. Some of them are bad enough that the manufacturers
                  actually texture the surface to try to slow your finger down,
                  I guess because the accuracy of the touchpad isn't very good.
                  High end touchpads like the one on the XPS or MacBooks have
                  flawless feel: extremely low friction surfaces.
                  
                  It's not commonly noticed, but software contributes at least
                  as much to how a trackpad feels as hardware. Given the
                  limitations of its hardware, I have no quarrel with Apple's
                  software quality. (Though the defaults are weird, like not
                  being able to tap-to-click. They really want you to have to
                  use that damn button.)
                  
                  Windows has historically sucked at this. I've seen about half
                  a dozen trackpads that seemed absolutely terrible, and no
                  Windows settings could make them better. After moving them
                  over to Linux (on the synaptics driver) they suddenly became
                  quite okay to use, even if the hardware was crappy. I'm
                  afraid this era might be ending, sadly. I've had nothing but
                  bad experiences with libinput. It lacks the kind of
                  configurability you need to improve on the performance of a
                  bad touchpad. (It's even quite bad under Wayland for the XPS
                  touchpad - you can't set the combination of low speed, high
                  acceleration that feels natural to me for this touchpad.)
       
                    vladvasiliu wrote 3 days ago:
                    As you say, the default mac os touchpad settings are
                    somewhat strange to me.
                    
                    But the touchpad can be configured for the bottom side of
                    the touchpad to function as buttons: if you touch it
                    directly, it won't register as mouse movement. If you press
                    on the left, it's a left button, right is a right button.
                    So while not actual physical buttons, it's pretty damn
                    close. I don't actually use this so not sure houw this
                    would work out in practice for your needs.
                    
                    Regarding the dragging situation, there's another setting
                    that's now been buried in "Accessibility" for some reason,
                    but that was present in the touchpad settings before: "drag
                    hold".
                    
                    This allows you to lift the finger from the touchpad for a
                    brief period while dragging without stopping the dragging.
                    This, to me, is the pinnacle of touchpad experience. You
                    can start dragging wherever you want on the pad and go as
                    far as you like, you never run out of space.
                    
                    There's also a similar option that some people like:
                    three-finger drag. It works like scrolling, except that if
                    you use three fingers it starts dragging.
       
                    zimpenfish wrote 3 days ago:
                    > Trying to hold down the giant button (which takes quite a
                    bit of force) while trying to drag your finger... ugh. It's
                    miserable.
                    
                    Not wishing to detract from your personal experience but
                    "quite a bit of force" is at odds to mine - on this M1 MBP,
                    it takes less force to activate the trackpad click than it
                    does to activate a keypress.  And once you've clicked, you
                    can use a second figure to drag; no need to try and drag
                    with the force finger (I use my thumb to click for power*,
                    then index to drag for accuracy.)
       
                      breatheoften wrote 3 days ago:
                      Another comment regarding the click and drag behavior.
                      
                      One thing I would definitely expect a recent migrant to
                      apple trackpads to experience as negative would be "force
                      click".  The apple trackpads sense force in some analogue
                      way and if you push hard enough you can activate another
                      action called force click.  It's ridiculously easy to
                      activate on accident when holding click while dragging --
                      but this "feature" can be turned off (and probably should
                      be for most people I'd wager).
                      
                      I've never tried using the middle finger for dragging --
                      seems awkward but i'll give it a try ... won't that
                      activate the two finger drag operation?
       
                        zimpenfish wrote 3 days ago:
                        > won't that activate the two finger drag operation?
                        
                        No, because you've clicked which makes it a different
                        operation than just two fingers scrolling or zooming.
       
                      bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
                      Yes, your point is entirely fair. I should have clarified
                      that I was talking about an older (mid decade) MacBook
                      Pro. It requires enough force that, with my arm just
                      positioned normally, I can actually feel the torque
                      applied down the whole of my forearm.
                      
                      My understanding is that Apple has made the clicks much
                      lighter in their later models - along with doing the
                      exact same thing with the keyboard keys, which for me
                      goes much to far in the other direction.
       
                        easton wrote 3 days ago:
                        On 2015 or later MacBooks, you can adjust the force
                        required for a click: [1] (“Adjust trackpad
                        settings”)
                        
   URI                  [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204352
       
                          bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
                          This is software adjustable? That's very impressive
                          engineering. Unfortunately this a 2014 MBP.
       
                            vladvasiliu wrote 3 days ago:
                            AFAIK the button doesn't actually move, it's like
                            the home button on some older iPhones (like the 7).
                            It detects the pressure and has a haptic feedback
                            to make it feel like a button. If you look at a
                            powered off iphone 7, the button is just an indent
                            on the otherwise fixed glass panel.
       
                              lloeki wrote 3 days ago:
                              Exactly. The most impressive part is that it
                              really feels like a click, down to the illusion
                              it's moving down (but it's not, at all). When
                              powering off (or there's a crash), the feeling of
                              it being immovable is surreal. Plus the surface
                              is suddenly responding evenly (the clicking ones
                              had a hinged design, so it became increasingly
                              hard to click upwards the surface)
                              
                              One can leverage the haptic feedback to make the
                              TouchBar a bit more lively[0]. The illusion
                              breaks a bit since the haptic device is farther
                              away from the touch surface but it's still quite
                              a transformative experience for the TB.
                              
                              [0]:
                              
   URI                        [1]: https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
       
                        charrondev wrote 3 days ago:
                        The latest iterations as I understand are like this:
                        
                        - keyboards were reverted similar to how they were
                        around 2015.
                        - all the new trackpads are don’t require a physical
                        actuation to activate. You can apply the same amount of
                        minimal pressure anywhere on the trackpad and it
                        “presses back” at you to simulate a physical click.
                        It’s quite convincing.
       
                          fomine3 wrote 3 days ago:
                          Force touch is useful feature last missing on other
                          PCs.
       
                  kibwen wrote 3 days ago:
                  In terms of hardware, IMO my XPS 15's trackpad is superior to
                  my MacBook Pro's trackpad. The gesture support from the OS
                  obviously isn't as good, but the XPS sure does feel better to
                  use.
       
                    indymike wrote 3 days ago:
                    Honestly, my xps is the only laptop that comes close to my
                    macbooks... Yo be fair, the touch screen and pen on the XPS
                    blow away the ones on the Macbook.
       
                the_hoser wrote 3 days ago:
                The sad part is that it's not just a hardware problem.    While
                most PC laptops have really terrible trackpad hardware, some do
                have pretty decent hardware.  It's just that the software is
                still absolutely terrible.  You can run Linux on a relatively
                modern Macbook, and the trackpad becomes terrible.
       
                Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
                Looks like there’s some good progress for touchpad support on
                Linux: [1] [2] Many millions of people will benefit, but the
                project only has 129 supporters, if anyone wants to chip in!
                
   URI          [1]: https://bill.harding.blog/2021/02/11/linux-touchpad-li...
   URI          [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102894
       
                mnahkies wrote 3 days ago:
                Use the keyboard predominantly instead of the trackpad and
                problem mitigated ;)
                
                I've been using Linux exclusively on ~5 different laptops of
                varying quality the last few years and I haven't been able to
                relate to the frequent comments about trackpad support being
                poor - not sure if it's just I don't use it that much, or don't
                realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook.
                
                My biggest gripe applies to all laptops and that's the
                insufficient ram offered on most models - IMO 16gb should be
                the baseline, and 32gb approaching normal with the demands of
                current software (yes software could be more efficient but this
                isn't the reality we find ourselves in)
       
                  frant-hartm wrote 3 days ago:
                  >don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern
                  macbook
                  
                  That's what I thought as well, but every time I try to use my
                  colleagues Mac it's a struggle, movement speed is really
                  weird as it's not linear, tapping doesn't behave as one would
                  expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with
                  that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I
                  don't want to.
                  
                  True, I have used it maybe for 10 mins in total in.my life,
                  so that's probably the main issue (I hope for the sake of the
                  people who actually use it).
                  
                  On the other hand I have seen long time users and it makes me
                  cringe. What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for
                  random text selection only.
       
                    taneq wrote 3 days ago:
                    Doesn't every computer have an acceleration setting for
                    mouse speed, on touchpad and physical mouse?
                    
                    Conflating novice users with mac users seems a bit
                    unreasonable, especially given how many people have used
                    both at various times.
       
                    wtallis wrote 3 days ago:
                    >  movement speed is really weird as it's not linear,
                    
                    It really shouldn't be linear. That would force you to make
                    unnecessary tradeoffs between precision and the ability to
                    get the cursor from one side of the screen to the other in
                    just one or two swipes.
                    
                    > tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a
                    problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole
                    thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to.
                    
                    Tap to click is an option that can be toggled on and off,
                    on every trackpad I've ever used. Additionally, Apple
                    trackpads since 2015 let you adjust in software the amount
                    of force required for a press on the trackpad to register
                    as a click.
                    
                    > What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random
                    text selection only.
                    
                    I can just as easily turn this around: configure and learn
                    a few multi-touch gestures and you won't have to keep
                    moving your hand off the trackpad to perform keyboard
                    shortcuts.
       
                boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about
                trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are
                better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is
                graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice,
                graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. [1] and [2] ) are
                better. The only thing trackpads seem good at is browsing¹,
                which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where
                Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.²  vi-style keybindings³
                are best.
                
                Edits to respond:
                
                My point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good
                text editing / development environment that works well with a
                specialized text input device — a keyboard — or ② would
                be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad
                input device (eg. a gaming mouse, graphics tablet, etc.)
                
                ⁰especially here on HN
                ¹including scrolling through PDFs and other documents ²or
                Zathura or less ³and/or/including PageUp/Down, Home, and End
                on luxurious large keyboards. Space and Shift+Space are okay on
                smaller ones.
                
   URI          [1]: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresol...
   URI          [2]: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresol...
       
                  oh-4-fucks-sake wrote 3 days ago:
                  Agree that efficient development (regardless of IDE/editor)
                  is done best using primarily keyboard.
                  
                  Also agree that detached keyboards and mice will almost
                  always be superior to their on-board counterparts.
                  
                  But, I think we're being a wee bit cognitively dissonant if
                  we tell ourselves notebook keyboards and trackpads don't
                  receive a non-trivial amount of use--even from the best of
                  us.
                  
                  Even more, why are keyboard and external-mouse purists even
                  bothered with even owning a laptop if they rarely/ever intend
                  to use the most major distinguishing features that separate
                  them from desktops in the first place?
                  
                  But even if you don't agree with any of that, why shouldn't
                  we still demand a damn-good version of a highly ubiquitous
                  tool, even if we don't personally use it that often?
                  (Especially since Apple has proven that it's possible.) On HN
                  (and the rest of the dev community) are perhaps the most
                  demanding critics of anything technology. "Server starts up
                  8% slower!--dogshit!" "New release consumes 5% more
                  memory--are you kidding me!" "Battery lasts 25m shorter--I'm
                  in tears!" "The new theme is highly disruptive to my
                  workflow--OH THE HUMANITY."
                  
                  I'm not being critical of our being sticklers. We should be!
                  That's our job! Our fellow devs care about quality; our users
                  care about quality. We should care about what our users care
                  about. We have the voices and power to advocate for good
                  products for all that use technology. The trackpad will be a
                  major way people interact with computers for a long time to
                  come and I'm not prepared to hand-wave away the mediocre.
       
                  PhasmaFelis wrote 3 days ago:
                  > I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about
                  trackpads.
                  
                  Because it's nice to be able to use my laptop without having
                  to find a tabletop and dig out my mouse. In bed, on the
                  couch, on a bus, as a passenger in a car.
                  
                  Smartphones have taken over a lot of those situations, but a
                  small laptop is still much better for a lot of tasks. I don't
                  use Macs anymore, but their touchpads are actually as precise
                  as a good mouse, and it just feels really nice.
                  
                  Same thing with knobs and graphics tablets, though it's not a
                  use case I have personally. A dedicated peripheral is
                  probably more powerful and precise, but sometimes it's nice
                  to use your laptop from your lap.
       
                  GuB-42 wrote 3 days ago:
                  A friend of mine is a professional photographer, he is using
                  his trackpad to process and edit his pictures. Hundreds of
                  them per session. And it's not like he can't afford a mouse
                  or even specialized hardware.
                  
                  And having tried Apple touchpads, they are actually good, so
                  much that they released a standalone version for desktop
                  computers. On every PC I have tried, at best, they provide
                  you with a pointing device in case using a mouse is
                  impractical. I don't intend to buy a Mac for several reason
                  but I have to admit that their trackpads are not in the same
                  league.
       
                  BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                  > I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about
                  trackpads. ... would be better done with a specialized
                  non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device
                  
                  So you want a specialized input devices for every task on a
                  mobile device. That's an interesting choice. And I guess you
                  also want to carry all these specialized devices around with
                  you?
                  
                  > browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text
                  task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style
                  keybindings³ are best
                  
                  Ok. Say you see a headline on HN that looks interesting, and
                  you go to click on it. Wait, no, you...uhh...tab tab tab tab
                  tab over to it and press enter to go to the comments page
                  (like we all do) and start reading the comments. And, oh
                  look, you want to respond to one of them. So you...uhh...tab
                  tab...uhh...tab...tab tab tab tab tab tab tab...tab tab? Or
                  you could just point and click.
                  
                  Your proposed critical tasks of shifting the viewport and
                  appending text to the current cursor location meet
                  approximately 0% of computing user needs. The vast majority
                  of all computer interaction is putting the cursor in the
                  right place in the first place. The keyboard is terrible for
                  that, external devices encumber portability, vertical touch
                  screens require significant muscle control and effort, and
                  trackpoints drift and do fewer things while being worse at
                  all of them.
       
                    boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                    > uhh...tab tab tab tab tab
                    
                    Please take a minute to type the name of any of the
                    browsers I named into your favourite search engine or
                    package manager and return when you know what we’re
                    talking about. (This comment was made via Pentadactyl).
                    
                    > The vast majority of all computer interaction is putting
                    the cursor in the right place in the first place.
                    
                    This is why it pains me to use browsers where I can’t tap
                    [count]gi to focus input fields.
       
                      BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                      > This comment was made via Pentadactyl
                      
                      Enlighten us all. What exactly did you press and what
                      mental decision and awareness process was required to do
                      it starting from the front page?
                      
                      > [count]gi
                      
                      "[count]" sounds like one would need to know how many
                      like things on the page precede the thing you're trying
                      to get to. Thanks but no thanks. 150! Oops, 100! Oops,
                      130!
       
                        curtainsforus wrote 3 days ago:
                        In Tridactyl, you just push f, which allocates each key
                        on the keyboard to a visible link on the screen.  So to
                        reply to your comment, the keystrokes were
                        
                        >fu  (click 'reply')
                        >ff  (select textbox)
                        >ESC (deselect textbox)
                        >fg  (click 'reply')
                        
                        and a lot easier- not to mention, less RSI-inducing-
                        than mucking around with a mouse, or trackpad, or
                        trackpoint, trying to aim a little cursor at a little
                        box multiple times in a row.
       
                        boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                        f20 selects this discussion (the 20th link), but I used
                        f4 to select threads (the 4th link); j,D, and  scroll
                        down by a line, half-screen/page and full-screen/page
                        respectively; fr4 selects the correct reply (the fourth
                        link whose text begins with r); gi goes to the first
                        input field and enters insert mode.
                        
                        In insert mode I may use the simple mixture of
                        emacs/readline and CUA bindings — like ^w to wipe the
                        last word, ^a to go to the beggining of the line and ^e
                        to go to the end (eg. when inserting a > before a
                        blockquote, then appending my commentary) — to write
                        a straightforward comment from beginning to end, or I
                        may use ^i to pop the field open in my $EDITOR (vis),
                        where motions like m to mark my place, G to go to the
                        end, o to open a new line, and M to return to my mark
                        are useful for comments that might be written
                        non-linearly, eg. if they have footnotes. I can save
                        and exit vis (if I use it) with ZZ, and submit the
                        comment with standard CUA .
                        
                        If I reference any other material then Pentadactyl’s
                        browsing bindings like go«character» to open a
                        quickmark, s to search, p or P to paste my X11 primary
                        selection as a search term or the url of a current or
                        new tab, b to fast-as-you-type search through tabs, y
                        to yank the current website, ;y«number and/or title of
                        link to yank» and d to delete a tab are useful (along
                        with standard X11 Shift+Insert to paste the primary
                        selection in insert mode).
                        
                        Ideally though, I should use Pentadactyl only for
                        browsing — for scrolling through and reading web
                        documents — and have a dedicated newsreader that
                        understands what posts, comments, etc. are and could
                        make this several times more efficient. I’m currently
                        dipping my toes in evil-mode emacs, which should enable
                        this. I’ve recently spent less time on HN and more on
                        IRC where I do have a dedicated native client that
                        makes things orders of magnitude more smooth than
                        trying to use a web client in my browser.
       
                          BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                          Now I can't tell if this thread is meant to be
                          satire.
                          
                          > f20 selects this discussion (the 20th link) but I
                          used f4 to select threads (the 4th link)
                          
                          So first you have to visually recognize every link in
                          between the beginning and what you want to choose and
                          then you have to count them all? I hope you don't
                          miscount!
                          
                          > j,D, and  scroll down by a line, half-screen/page
                          and full-screen/page respectively
                          
                          How many lines, half-pages, or pages is it from the
                          top to here? Just curious.
                          
                          > fr4 selects the correct reply (the fourth link
                          whose text begins with r);
                          
                          So first you have to decide that "starts with r" is a
                          good heuristic for getting where you want to go and
                          then you have to find all of the links that start
                          with r and count them?
                          
                          > gi goes to the first input field and enters insert
                          mode
                          
                          But if it's not the first input field, then you have
                          to count them or cycle through them?
                          
                          > Ideally though, I should have a dedicated
                          newsreader that understands what posts, comments,
                          etc. are
                          
                          So now you want a special bespoke reader for every
                          website?
                          
                          Oh yes this all sounds so much easier than just
                          pointing at the thing you want! Thank you for
                          clarifying.
       
                            boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                            I believe every single statement in your comment is
                            factually false. The only one I don’t feel
                            objectively certain of is this:
                            
                            > Just curious.
                            
                            But I sincerely doubt it’s true based on the tone
                            of your comment. I’m willing to walk through each
                            sentence with you, but as I have already sunk
                            significant time into trying to help you I politely
                            request that you first prove my doubt unfounded by
                            investing five minutes in grabbing luakit,
                            qutebrowser, or Pentadactyl — or at the very
                            least a WebExtension attempt at emulating them like
                            SurfingKeys — with your favorite package
                            manager/browser and trying it out for yourself.
                            
                            Edit: However I will walk through the sentences for
                            the sake of the other people reading this thread in
                            better faith, to respond to the strongest [weakly]
                            plausible interpretation of your comment, although
                            text is a worse medium for learning GUIs than video
                            which is worse than first hand interactive use.
                            
                            > So first you have to visually recognize every
                            link in between the beginning and what you want to
                            choose and then you have to count them all? I hope
                            you don't miscount!
                            
                            No, the browser automatically highlights them in a
                            style of your choice (I use a gruvbox theme) and
                            visually numbers them for you. You can also just
                            begin typing any part of the link’s title and it
                            will be selected when you’ve typed a subset
                            unique to it.
                            
                            > How many lines, half-pages, or pages is it from
                            the top to here? Just curious.
                            
                            ~3 out of 4 screens on my threads right now. But
                            note that I scrolled down one piece at a time and
                            only know this because my bottom status bar happens
                            to display it (as well as the url, mode, a minus or
                            plus signifying pages back or forward in the
                            tab’s history, on a background that signifies the
                            SSL status of the site).
                            
                            > So first you have to decide that "starts with r"
                            is a good heuristic for getting where you want to
                            go and then you have to find all of the links that
                            start with r and count them?
                            
                            No, you don’t need to use a heuristic but it
                            saves reaching your left hand to the number row to
                            eliminate half a dozen links by typing fr instead
                            of just typing f10.
                            
                            > But if it's not the first input field, then you
                            have to count them or cycle through them?
                            
                            No, you can use ;i to select fields the same way
                            you select links, but it hasn’t taken me the
                            months I’ve been using HN to notice all top-level
                            discussion pages have exactly 2 input fields: one
                            to add a top-level comment and one for the Algolia
                            search (gi or 2gi will instantly teleport you to
                            and insert you cursor in the first or second one
                            respectively).
                            
                            > So now you want a special bespoke reader for
                            every website?
                            
                            No, I want a native client for each type of
                            software: a browser for browsing (exploring and
                            reading) web documents, a news reader for news, an
                            IRC client for internet real-time chat, a mail
                            client for mail, a media player for playing media
                            (I copy links and use a sxhkd binding to open them
                            in MPV — [1] ), etc.
                            
   URI                      [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24509...
       
                              allarm wrote 3 days ago:
                              I’m using a different plugin (I think it’s
                              vimkeys) which is also great. I wanted to give
                              the pentadactyl a try, but it looks like it’s
                              discontinued- the latest release was in 2014. Am
                              I looking in a wrong place?
                              
   URI                        [1]: http://bug.5digits.org/pentadactyl/
       
                                walterlb wrote 3 days ago:
                                I've been trying out Tridactyl, and like it so
                                far. I believe it's similar to Pentadactyl,
                                though maybe missing some features.
                                
   URI                          [1]: https://github.com/tridactyl/tridactyl
       
                                boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                                 [1] The development¹ has been continued by
                                the community  after Firefox removed support
                                for XUL extensions.
                                
                                ¹Well, tbh basic maintenance is a more
                                accurate term — the updates have been minor,
                                and the patch that enables it in the latest
                                version of Palemoon hasn’t been pushed to the
                                addon store yet, you have to clone from master
                                at the moment.
                                
   URI                          [1]: https://github.com/pentadactyl/pentada...
       
                              BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                              > The browser automatically highlights them
                              
                              What do you do when the browser doesn't highlight
                              something interactive?
                              
                              What do you do for, as one person on the web
                              calls it, "fancy javascript shit"? What if you
                              want to draw an iceberg to see how it would
                              float?
       
                                allarm wrote 3 days ago:
                                In these cases you use your mouse or whatever,
                                obviously. What’s your point?
                                
                                I have been using a similar plugin for years
                                and on a very rare occasion I’m using my
                                touchpad to do something as you described.
       
                        SpaceNugget wrote 3 days ago:
                        You just look at the thing you want to click and press
                        F then type the letters that appear on the tag.
                        
                        EDIT: Here's an extremely low quality screencast of me
                        making this comment
                        
   URI                  [1]: https://imgur.com/qpppveP
       
                          BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                          Thanks. This is a much better reply than the OP's.
                          Now what do you do for things that don't get tagged?
       
                            SpaceNugget wrote 3 days ago:
                            Pretty much everything clickable gets tagged.
                            Buttons, text inputs, links, etc. If what you want
                            to click on has a word in it, you can press '/' and
                            type the word then hit enter to click it so that
                            would probably be what I would do if there was ever
                            a missing tag. That's also how you can highlight
                            text. This is for vimium at least.
       
                        walterlb wrote 3 days ago:
                        I am actually (non-sarcastically) interested in the
                        answer. I've always wondered if there was a usable
                        keyboard only browsing experience out there!
       
                          medstrom wrote 3 days ago:
                          "Usable" partly depends on you.
       
                  dopu wrote 3 days ago:
                  In my day job I'm constantly reading PDFs. Being able to zoom
                  in/out, scroll, and move the cursor with such low effort can
                  even bring me a little bit of joy. It's not really about what
                  is most efficient. Computing should feel good. That's why
                  it's hard for me to move away from Apple's trackpads.
       
                    boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                    > a little bit of joy
                    
                    is a good description of what I feel reading PDFs
                    efficiently, near effortlessly (which to me is near the
                    same thing), and comfortably (also similar in that it
                    involves minimal reaching, but also includes automatic
                    semi-smart dark theming, easy good zooming, etc.) with
                    Zathura.
       
                  throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
                  > Trackpad vs keyboard
                  
                  ¿Por que no los dos? Seriously, I wasn't talking about
                  replacing my keyboard with a trackpad. They are different
                  devices with different purposes and are intended to be used
                  together.
       
                  reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
                  my point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a
                  good text editing / development environment
                  
                  Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most"
                  with "my."  The fact that trackpads are hugely popular
                  indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not
                  impose your choices upon others with different needs.
                  
                  would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard,
                  non-trackpad input device
                  
                  Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to
                  rotate objects on a screen.  Or zoom into a specific object
                  without affecting other objects on a screen.  Or configure to
                  have multiple hotspots that when tapped can trigger events or
                  macros.
                  
                  Again, trackpads aren't your thing.  Good for you.  Other
                  people love them, and millions of people get real work done
                  on them each day.
       
                    aksss wrote 2 days ago:
                    I find the mouse better for zooming (scroll wheel) and
                    rotating (click and drag). Second to that, for less
                    articulate but quick performance of same task, using the
                    touch screen to rotate and drag in the same way you would
                    on a track pad but actually interacting with the imagery
                    directly. The laptop keyboard and trackpad combo is fine,
                    but to me they’re merely a convenience until I can get
                    back to a “real” keyboard and a mouse. It’s not
                    uncommon for me to spend hours using the laptop’s  HIDs
                    directly, but I don’t think it’s very ergo, and
                    definitely not as productive as a full desktop setup.
                    External trackpads don’t sell well for a reason - simply
                    that if you have the desk space for one, almost everyone is
                    better served by a good quality mouse.
       
                    jessaustin wrote 3 days ago:
                    Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use
                    to rotate objects on a screen.
                    
                    The obvious answer to the challenge is a touchscreen.
       
                      throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
                      I actually buy this conclusion for this use case, but in
                      fairness the debate was "keyboard vs touchpad". So
                      touchscreen > touchpad > keyboard for rotating objects.
                      But for other things, having to reach up to the screen
                      (e.g., scrolling), is worse than touchpad. With a
                      trackpad, I only have to articulate my wrist while my arm
                      remains resting on the surface; with a touch screen, I
                      have to lift my whole arm and articulate my shoulder and
                      elbow if not also my wrist.
       
                        likeclockwork wrote 2 days ago:
                        I'm not a touch screen fanatic but I think using your
                        whole arm instead of just torquing your wrist all day
                        is considered a feature?
                        
                        Obviously it's not as great if the measure you're
                        looking at is "how quickly can I go back to typing?".
       
                        boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                        > the debate was "keyboard vs touchpad".
                        
                        I didn’t mean for it to be that exclusively. I tried
                        to say that keyboards are the best text input device,
                        but gaming mice and controllers are the best gaming
                        input device, graphics tablets are the best graphics
                        input device, and video editing input devices like the
                        ones I linked in my original comment are probably best
                        for video editing (while trackpads are at best decent
                        scrolling/browsing devices, but IMHO I personally
                        prefer keyboard scrolling like in the terminal pager
                        less, the PDF and other document viewer Zathura, and
                        vi-inspired browsers/browser plugins like luakit,
                        qutebrowser, and Pentadactyl).
       
                    SeanLuke wrote 3 days ago:
                    > Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
                    use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific
                    object without affecting other objects on a screen.
                    
                    I agree with you in general, but a trackpad is in fact
                    really, truly horrible for these tasks.  As humans we are
                    designed to rotate objects precisely, and that design does
                    not involve using two fingers to slide about arbitrary
                    locations on a flat plane.  It involves grasping and
                    rotating with the hand.  For rotating and/or zooming, a
                    large knob attached to a high-resolution encoder would be a
                    million times better.
       
                      jaegerpicker wrote 3 days ago:
                      If you haven't looked at them before take a look at 3D
                      mice. Commonly used in 3D modeling and CAD drafting they
                      are the best at interacting with items in 3D space but I
                      wouldn't actually like one for text/flat image
                      interaction. Mapping 3D movements to a flat plane is less
                      intuitive than it may seem if you haven't done it. Most
                      the 3D professionals I know use a touchpad or regular
                      mouse for 99% of the non-3D usage.
       
                      breatheoften wrote 3 days ago:
                      How about a little sphere or oriented volume that
                      magnetically levitates out of its cubby when the device
                      is powered on -- and maybe the field could be varied to
                      simulate different amounts of resistance ...
       
                      BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                      I think you missed the goal of the multi-purpose
                      requirement. Proselytizing custom input controls for
                      every possible task on a portable device is...weird.
       
                        rzzzt wrote 3 days ago:
                        Some dials would be pretty cool on a laptop, though...
                        it just makes the lid harder to close.
       
                          mikeryan wrote 3 days ago:
                          Ergo the Mac Touchbar.
       
                          flukus wrote 3 days ago:
                          Some dials would be good everywhere, I've considered
                          buying some expensive keyboards ( [1] ) purely for a
                          volume control knob.
                          
                          A common complaint around here is about how touch
                          screens have taken away better tactile controls, but
                          so have our keyboards.
                          
   URI                    [1]: https://www.daskeyboard.com/
       
                            rzzzt wrote 3 days ago:
                            I also liked the dedicated scroll wheel on MS
                            Office-themed keyboards. They might have gone
                            overboard with the clipboard control buttons, but
                            the wheel felt reasonable.
       
                    boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                    >Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most"
                    with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular
                    indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should
                    not impose your choices upon others with different needs.
                    
                    But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a
                    fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market. Does the
                    fact that non-Apple computers are hugely popular indicate
                    that the needs of Apple trackpad fans are not typical, and
                    they should not extol their virtues to others?
                    
                    > Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
                    use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific
                    object without affecting other objects on a screen. Or
                    configure to have multiple hotspots that when tapped can
                    trigger events or macros.
                    
                    I’ve previously used a normal Apple mouse and keyboard to
                    do all of these things in Adobe Photoshoshop and
                    Illustrator on macOS and subsequently a random BestBuy
                    mouse and ancient Compaq keyboard to do them in Gimp,
                    Inkscape, and Blender on GNU (with xdotool for hot corners,
                    which I’m counting as close enough to tapping hotspots).
                    A graphics tablet would only work better.
                    
                    > Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other
                    people love them, and millions of people get real work done
                    on them each day.
                    
                    Again, non-Apple trackpads don’t seem to be your thing.
                    Good for you. The majority of trackpad users use them every
                    day.
       
                      BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                      > But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a
                      fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market.
                      
                      The person you're replying to said "trackpads are
                      popular" with no mention of Apple. Your entire argument
                      so far has been against trackpads in general. Why shift
                      goalposts?
       
                        likeclockwork wrote 2 days ago:
                        Is it even called a "trackpad" outside of Apple
                        machines? I'm pretty sure they're called "touchpads"
                        generally. So maybe "trackpad" is inherently referent
                        to Apple.
       
                          BugsJustFindMe wrote 2 days ago:
                          > Is it even called a "trackpad" outside of Apple
                          machines?
                          
                          Yes. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Trackpad and touchpad are
                          generic synonyms according to every source I can
                          find.
                          
   URI                    [1]: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/laptop-faq...
   URI                    [2]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-tr...
   URI                    [3]: http://support.blackberry.com/kb/articleDeta...
   URI                    [4]: https://edgeup.asus.com/2019/the-asus-screen...
   URI                    [5]: https://wikidiff.com/trackpad/touchpad
       
                            likeclockwork wrote 2 days ago:
                            I'm not sure that they actually are. Touchpad was
                            the name I always heard for that kind of input,
                            remember they're not only used in computers.
                            
                            I don't have the data but I think this is like the
                            motherboard / logic board split. In other words
                            "trackpad" may be Apple for "touchpad".
       
                              BugsJustFindMe wrote 2 days ago:
                              > I don't have the data but
                              
                              I gave you data by showing links where other
                              companies like Blackberry, Lenovo, Microsoft, and
                              Asus use the word "trackpad" themselves for their
                              own devices. Lenovo even cutely capitalizes the P
                              to fit their ThinkPad branding. You could also
                              google around and see random people on reddit and
                              elsewhere talking about the "trackpads" on their
                              dells, hps, vaios, matebooks, and so on.
                              
                              I'm not saying that "touchpad" isn't more common,
                              but the evidence _clearly_ shows that "trackpad"
                              isn't exclusive to Apple devices.
       
                        boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                        The comment I was replying to was ~⅔ quasi argumentum
                        ad populum. So I replied to their quasi argumentum ad
                        populum with examples of it applied to the broader
                        context of the thread, including the comment I
                        originally replied to, and replied to their other
                        argument with counterpoints both with and without Apple
                        hardware.
       
                      throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
                      You... you do realize that you can’t order a PC laptop
                      with a Mac trackpad, right? No one is like, “I could
                      have the Mac trackpad for the same cost, but I prefer the
                      stuttery trackpad that moves the cursor and selects shit
                      when my palm gets too close”.
       
                        airbreather wrote 3 days ago:
                        but I believe you can buy a bluetooth apple keyboard
                        with mousepad built in
       
                          saagarjha wrote 3 days ago:
                          For iPad.
       
                        boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                        > You... you do realize that you can’t order a PC
                        laptop with a Mac trackpad, right?
                        
                        You can as long as you can order x86 Macs with
                        Bootcamp.
                        
                        > No one is like, “I could have the Mac trackpad for
                        the same cost, but I prefer the stuttery trackpad that
                        moves the cursor and selects bleep when my palm gets
                        too close”.
                        
                        No, but there are plenty of people who think “I
                        prefer no trackpad to accidentally swipe [—even if
                        palm rejection is perfect, I want total hand
                        —including finger— rejection—] at all”, from
                        people who buy Macs and use the setting Apple provides
                        to disable the trackpad when mice are plugged in, to
                        people who use their Mac as a PC laptop and manually
                        disable the trackpad ( [1] ), to people who try to more
                        permanently disconnect broken old Mac trackpads ( [2]
                        ), to people who physically disconnect their trackpads,
                        to people who buy old thinkpads because eg. at least
                        some x200s have only a trackpoint and fingerprint
                        sensor.
                        
   URI                  [1]: https://www.lakshmikanth.com/how-to-disable-tr...
   URI                  [2]: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/3866...
       
                          throwaway894345 wrote 3 days ago:
                          It seems like you've moved the goalposts from your
                          original claim/implication that non-Mac trackpads are
                          more popular to "not everyone likes trackpads". As
                          far as I know, no one has argued that everyone likes
                          trackpads?
       
                            boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                            My implication was that the fact that many people
                            use trackpads doesn’t somehow prove that
                            trackpads are a good tool (as reaperducer seemed to
                            imply) (despite the fact that people can’t easily
                            get laptops without them) any more than the fact
                            that many people use non-Apple trackpads somehow
                            proves that non-Apple trackpads are better (despite
                            the fact that many people can’t easily get
                            laptops they like without them).
       
                      reaperducer wrote 3 days ago:
                      I’ve previously used a normal Apple Magic mouse and
                      keyboard to do all of these things
                      
                      If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse
                      with a trackpad on its back.  Glad you liked it!
                      
                      And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't the
                      same as rotating with a trackpad.  It's an entirely
                      different process that is significantly less efficient,
                      unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you
                      want down to the 0.1°.
       
                        boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                        > If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a
                        mouse with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it!
                        
                        My mistake. I used a standard Apple mouse ( [1] ). I
                        used its clickable scroll ball and squeeze
                        functionality and suspect I would dislike the Magic
                        mouse.
                        
                        > And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't
                        the same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely
                        different process that is significantly less efficient,
                        unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you
                        want down to the 0.1°.
                        
                        IMO the ideal mouse + keyboard rotation style is
                        Blender’s, which is more efficient in this scenario
                        than a trackpad. But I still believe a graphics tablet
                        would be objectively superior.
                        
   URI                  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Mighty_Mou...
       
                          jaegerpicker wrote 3 days ago:
                          Have three graphics tablets, while they are FAR
                          superior for art work they are not at all better for
                          rotation. In fact I use blender on Mac and regularly
                          use the trackpad to zoom and rotate because it's far
                          more precise. Similar for 2D drawing, my favorite 2D
                          environment is the iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. I still
                          rotate with two finger gestures.
       
                  kayodelycaon wrote 3 days ago:
                  > I’ve never understood why people care so much about
                  trackpads.
                  
                  Because most people don't use vim and mice aren't usable
                  unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to hold
                  one. If I'm using my laptop on the couch, a trackpad is
                  probably the best solution. (Trackpoint gave my index finger
                  RSI, when I was was being careful.)
       
                    neilparikh wrote 3 days ago:
                    > mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat
                    surface with the room to hold one
                    
                    Trackball mice a good solution to this problem. I had work
                    on a bed without a table for 2 weeks last year, and a
                    trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using
                    the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad
                    on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable if you do it often
                    enough).
       
                      wiredfool wrote 3 days ago:
                      Trackball mice are thick, and inevitably got schmutz in
                      the bearings and got slow. Then you'd have to open them
                      up and clean them out.
                      
                      Trackpads were a great upgrade to laptops when they
                      happened, even though at the time, excessive moisture
                      screwed up the trackpad, to the point that I needed to
                      have a dime handy to put my finger on for a half hour
                      after getting out of the shower.
                      
                      (Source: I've used mac portables since the PB 100,
                      including most of the major versions)
       
                      BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                      > a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like
                      using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to
                      trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable
                      
                      Switching from the keyboard to something an inch away is
                      uncomfortable for you, but switching from the keyboard to
                      something a foot away is not? I don't get it.
       
                        neilparikh wrote 1 day ago:
                        Moving to the mouse is a movement where the distance
                        from my hand to the body stays the same, while moving
                        to the trackpad is a movement where I need to being my
                        hand closer. For whatever reason, I find the second
                        easier.
                        
                        Additionally, when I'm using it on my lap, the trackpad
                        is basically next to my body, which makes my wrist
                        position a little uncomfortable.
                        
                        Looking back, I think it's not really the switching,
                        but rather the comfort when using one for a prolonged
                        period, for which I found the trackball easier.
       
                        kayodelycaon wrote 3 days ago:
                        The angle on the trackpad can be uncomfortable when
                        it’s sitting on your lap.
       
                          BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                          I find that the larger trackpads on newer macbooks
                          help with this a lot because the upper right corner
                          of the pad is easily accessible at exactly the same
                          angle of inward rotation by just pulling your elbow
                          back along the side of your body. The Apple magic, I
                          guess, is being able to have that without constant
                          phantom palm touches.
                          
                          See [1] An offset trackpad would also work, though
                          obviously would be less friendly to lefties.
                          
   URI                    [1]: https://imgur.com/a/qeRQIFD
       
                  spaetzleesser wrote 3 days ago:
                  I had the same opinion until I used a MacBook. The trackpad
                  works beautifully, the gestures  make sense. It’s close to
                  perfect. Even while on a docking station at my work desk I
                  either the MacBook trackpad or the Magic Trackpad.
       
                  meetups323 wrote 3 days ago:
                  For general working, trackpad is better. You can type and
                  move the mouse without moving your hands.
       
                    dublinben wrote 3 days ago:
                    Did you mean a trackpoint? How can you type and move the
                    mouse without moving your hands with a trackpad?
       
                      losvedir wrote 3 days ago:
                      Use your thumbs. The track pad is right below the space
                      bar.
                      
                      Or, it's close enough that with hovering hands you can
                      move back and forth between keys without looking. It's
                      much faster to navigate a code base that way, I think,
                      than trying to jump in vim lines at a time. A smooth,
                      continuous scroll at easily controllable, different
                      speeds does wonders for keeping continuity of a file in
                      mind.
       
                        boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                        > easily controllable, different speeds
                        
                        This is why I like having not just ^f/b full page, {}()
                        paragraph and sentence, and of course j/k line
                        scrolling but also ^u/d half-page scrolling so much
                        that I mapped them it U and D in Zathura and
                        Pentadactyl just for the centimeter of finger movement
                        that saves.
       
                          meetups323 wrote 3 days ago:
                          The funny thing is (){} are much further from where
                          your fingers are at home than the track pad is from
                          your thumbs on space.
       
                            boogies wrote 3 days ago:
                            {} are approximately as far but they’re in the
                            same direction that your fingers naturally point.
                            () are farther but as words in the languages of vi
                            and vim they're a powerful operator that have no
                            mouse equivalent (unlike w[ords] and {}
                            paragraphs/lines which have double-click and
                            triple-click). Editing the middle of a sentence,
                            then deciding to move it to a footnote is IMO
                            easier with `di(}p` or `di(Gp`¹ than with `bend
                            thumb/wrist backwards / arm up and to the right,
                            drag thumb to end of sentence, double-click drag to
                            select one word at a time to the other end, release
                            and drag sentence down precise number of lines to
                            next paragraph or all the way to the end of the
                            document (or how I would move the selection,
                            Backspace, PageDown to the end, Shift+Insert)"
                            
                            ¹Let me test that. I like digraphs a heck of a lot
                            more than scrolling through a symbol list btw. This
                            was also a nice use for marks.
       
                      chrisseaton wrote 3 days ago:
                      Not sure what you're confused about - your hand can hover
                      over the keyboard and trackpad at the same time - they're
                      right next to each other. I don't need to move my hands
                      to go from one to another?
       
                  sixothree wrote 3 days ago:
                  Let me introduce you to the developers whose primary machine
                  is a laptop without a mouse. Or a second screen.
       
                    airbreather wrote 3 days ago:
                    Ha, no second screen, next you will be telling me you made
                    it yourself out of rocks and sand.
       
                      sixothree wrote 2 days ago:
                      To be fair, I am not describing myself. I have 4 monitors
                      across three machines in my office.
       
                    dingaling wrote 3 days ago:
                    We used to have a far better solution for that, the pointer
                    stick on Dell and IBM laptops.    Direct control over the
                    cursor without abrading your sweaty dirty finger skin over
                    a frictive surface.
       
                      BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                      > a far better solution for that, the pointer stick on
                      Dell and IBM laptops.
                      
                      Please search the web for "trackpoint drift".
       
                        davidy123 wrote 3 days ago:
                        I've been a Trackpoint addict for over 20 years, using
                        computers 8+ hours a day. I wouldn't consider any other
                        pointer method. Trackpoint drift is an issue, but it's
                        not really a big problem. A few times a month, it
                        happens for a few seconds, then it works itself out. I
                        have had episodes of cramping, but they've gone away
                        with no long term impact.
                        
                        It may be that I've become more zen/accepting, because
                        I'm sure a mouse or trackpad can be more precise
                        pointing tools, but it's worth it for the connection.
                        Input is all about the keyboard and mouse, and the
                        proximity just makes so much sense, especially when
                        using vim mode. I could imagine better systems where
                        typing with a keyboard is still the main input, but
                        they would all involve not taking my hands off the home
                        row.
       
                        hackyhacky wrote 3 days ago:
                        This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads.
       
                          BugsJustFindMe wrote 3 days ago:
                          > This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads.
                          
                          Funny, because I see people complaining about it
                          still in 2020 on brand new Thinkpads. See for
                          instance [1] and the comments saying "They all drift,
                          it's inherent by the sensor design", "It drifts on
                          all my ThinkPads too", "Mine sometimes drifts".
                          
                          So unless your definition of modern is "ones that
                          haven't been released yet", I think you might be
                          wrong.
                          
   URI                    [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/k...
       
                    Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
                    I actually use the touchpad for scrolling even when I’m
                    using a mouse. It’s a much better interface for that
                    purpose.
       
                      medstrom wrote 3 days ago:
                      Now I'm picturing a fat tungsten scrollwheel with a lot
                      of inertia, that keeps spinning after you roll it.
       
                  the_hoser wrote 3 days ago:
                  When done right, they're wonderful.  When done wrong, you end
                  up creating custom keybindings to augment your workflow and
                  lug a mouse around when that doesn't cut it.  I've never seen
                  a PC laptop do it right.
       
            1stcity3rdcoast wrote 4 days ago:
            This is super exciting and I can't wait to see the machines in the
            wild. Congrats on the launch!
       
            bo1024 wrote 4 days ago:
            Good luck, very excited for this! Any chance of a Linux or no-OS
            option?
       
              1stcity3rdcoast wrote 4 days ago:
              The article says there's a linux/no-os option
       
                aidenn0 wrote 4 days ago:
                But only if you order the kit, not if you get it preassembled I
                believe.
       
                  nrp wrote 3 days ago:
                  This is correct.  There’s nothing technical preventing us
                  from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but we
                  figured there’s high overlap between that audience and
                  those who want to assemble a kit themselves.  This reduces
                  the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.
       
                    rkangel wrote 3 days ago:
                    > There’s nothing technical preventing us from offering a
                    pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured
                    there’s high overlap between that audience and those who
                    want to assemble a kit themselves.
                    
                    This may be projecting myself onto others but I wonder if
                    that's actually true, and I would indicate the Dell and
                    Lenovo Linux options as evidence.
                    
                    I personally run Linux on my laptop to reduce pain and time
                    spent doing unnecessary maintenance - I run Fedora on a
                    Lenovo and it works seamlessly. If I bought a Framework, it
                    would be for upgradability and maintainability rather than
                    for customisation.
       
                    reasonabl_human wrote 3 days ago:
                    I get the business case of universal pre-built inventory,
                    but offering a Linux version out of the box signals that
                    all hardware is compatible and fully functional...
                    supported at a first-party level.
                    
                    More and more developers in big tech companies using Linux
                    just expect it to work and aren’t interested in monkeying
                    around with drivers and configs..  not to say they can’t,
                    but why increase friction for your dev setup?
                    
                    This is one of the reasons why the XPS 13 Developer edition
                    exists.  Guaranteed first party support for Linux..  you
                    know the next kernel or major revision won’t Bork your
                    setup...  you can just focus on working within the env.
                    
                    Offering a preinstalled Linux variant captures the market
                    referenced above, and signals to tinkerers that this is a
                    good platform to build on since all hardware is supported
                    without jenky workarounds.
                    
                    Alternatively, if you can’t make offering dedicated Linux
                    installs an economically feasible thing, then perhaps offer
                    a mirror or set of instructions to set up latest LTS builds
                    of various Linux flavors, to indicate full compatibility? 
                    Because that is the real selling point.  Knowing all of
                    your hardware is supported as a first party product. 
                    That’s one of the biggest reasons why I chose an XPS this
                    time around, and considered a System76 machine as well.
       
                      nrp wrote 3 days ago:
                      Great feedback.  We will definitely at minimum post
                      guides and compatibility test results for the most
                      popular distros and ensure that at least Ubuntu LTS has a
                      straightforward path to full hardware functionality.
       
                        wing-_-nuts wrote 2 days ago:
                        Good man.  I bought my XPS 13 explicitly because of
                        dells 'developer edition'.  I don't need my OS
                        pre-installed, but I do want it fully validated and
                        working.  Make a 14" and I just might give this laptop
                        to my parents and buy yours.
       
                      Valkhyr wrote 3 days ago:
                      Seconded. 
                      I don't really need Linux pre-installed, but when I make
                      a buying decision I would be much more likely to buy a
                      laptop that is (a) guaranteed to be fully compatible with
                      Linux out of the box, and that (b) the manufacturer will
                      honor their warranty no matter which OS I choose to run.
                      
                      That said, I think offering Linux pre-installed would be
                      very nice as a signaling function to attract
                      technical-minded users.
       
                      bo1024 wrote 3 days ago:
                      nrp's reply makes complete sense, but I like this
                      argument as well.
       
                  Brakenshire wrote 3 days ago:
                  It’s not the end of the world, but not everyone who uses
                  Linux enjoys tinkering, some just want solid out of the box
                  support for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.
       
                    Valkhyr wrote 3 days ago:
                    Yep. I love Linux but hate having to futz around to get
                    basic stuff working. I'm ready to mess with some things
                    like display orientation on non-standard hardware like a
                    GPD Pocket to some extent, since you can't really expect
                    full out of the box support there, but when it comes to a
                    proper laptop I'm averse to OS-level tinkering just to make
                    stuff work (as opposed to tinkering in order to customize
                    to my preferences).
       
                  jdormit wrote 4 days ago:
                  Nothing stopping just installing linux on the preassembled
                  one when you get I though, I assume. Although I guess you may
                  have to pay for a Windows license in that case...
       
                    zorrolovsky wrote 3 days ago:
                    Yes, and that's the issue with most computers today:
                    there's no way to opt out to Windows.
                    Whether you like it or not, licensing cost is blended into
                    the computer and even if you don't use Windows you're
                    somehow supporting a company that you might not want to
                    support.
                    
                    I undertand in 99.9% of cases people just want to buy a
                    laptop, turn it on and have it working. But I also think
                    there should be an easy way to opt out of Windows enforced
                    by law so that MS don't bang up numbers due to shady
                    commercial practices.
       
                      not2b wrote 3 days ago:
                      In many cases, the cost of the license to the OEM is
                      negative.  That's because the cost of the Windows license
                      is more than outweighed by the payments they get for
                      crapware, adware, and 30-day trials, they get paid to
                      pre-install (and the crapware requires Windows).  It
                      would actually cost them more to ship with no OS.
       
                        Silhouette wrote 3 days ago:
                        That's been true historically in a lot of cases, but
                        isn't the whole point of the Framework to do things in
                        a different and better way? It would be very
                        disappointing if a laptop like this was shipping with
                        that kind of junkware installed as standard even on a
                        Windows pre-install. In fact, it would instantly
                        reverse my position having just heard about these guys
                        from something like "I wish you luck, this is a much
                        healthier direction to push the industry in, and by the
                        way let me know when it's available in the UK because I
                        am definitely a potential customer" to something I
                        won't repeat here that involves not wanting anything to
                        do with them or their products.
       
                          nrp wrote 3 days ago:
                          No need to worry!  Our Windows pre-install is
                          vanilla.  The only software added is the set of
                          drivers strictly needed to make the hardware
                          function.
       
                            Silhouette wrote 3 days ago:
                            Good answer. In that case, I shall remain happy to
                            have discovered you today and I shall continue to
                            wish you luck in shifting the market in healthier
                            directions. :-)
                            
                            FWIW, I'd be much more interested in your products
                            as a solid platform for running Linux than whatever
                            junk MS is including in Windows 10 this week
                            anyway. But sometimes small issues can say a
                            disproportionate amount about where a business
                            really stands on some issues I care about, and
                            things like having control over my own hardware and
                            software for reasons ranging from longevity to
                            privacy are high on my personal list.
       
                      aidenn0 wrote 3 days ago:
                      My understanding is that companies are worried about
                      being perceived as tacitly supporting piracy if they ship
                      with no OS.  I know, for example, HP will not sell you a
                      laptop with no OS, but they will sell you one with
                      FreeDOS.
       
            Abishek_Muthian wrote 4 days ago:
            All the best, Nirav. Long lasting repairable computing hardware is
            what we need now and goes a long way than just not including the
            charger within the box.
       
          arcturus17 wrote 4 days ago:
          They've got the street cred but producing and marketing hardware is
          so damn hard.
          
          Ouya and the Essential phone are two cases that immediately spring to
          mind where the founding teams were credible, but the products ended
          up being massive flops.
          
          Good luck to them anyway. The idea is cool and I think if I were on
          the lookout for a Linux laptop and they delivered on their quality
          promise, I'd consider them.
       
            jonplackett wrote 4 days ago:
            Laptops seems a very different situation to this though.
            
            There isn’t a huge amount of ready to use phone hardware from
            multiple competitive consumer suppliers I feel like integrating
            into a phone myself.
            
            But there are those things for a laptop.
            
            If they can make this work at a reasonable price it would be
            appealing even to me as an ardent Mac user.
       
              SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
              The OUYA did not have this problem. They packed stock standard
              android hardware in to a box. The problem was that it didn't have
              enough games to make it worth buying or enough developers to make
              it work targeting.
              
              I haven't read the details of this specific laptop in the OP but
              I have seen similar projects go nowhere. What usually happens is
              the product ends up a lot more expensive and lower quality than a
              mass produced laptop and the project doesn't live long enough to
              release a second gen of hardware.
              
              It would make more sense for me to buy 2 Dell XPS laptops over
              the next 10 years that to buy this hobby project and if I even
              can, buy the upgrade kit.
       
                jonplackett wrote 3 days ago:
                Yeah it depends if you really can use cheap hardware with it or
                if they're just locking you into their own proprietary stuff,
                which as you say, could just get discontinued.
       
            offtop5 wrote 4 days ago:
            I think the problem here is you have two complicated things to
            solve, both hardware and software and you're trying to do it with
            out too much money.
            
            A small hardware project on its own might be doable.
       
              arcturus17 wrote 4 days ago:
              Yea I agree the scope is more manageable than the examples I
              mentioned.
              
              But even then, they're tackling a very hard problem. Branding,
              manufacturing, quality assurance, distribution... So many things
              can go wrong.
              
              I'm not making a prediction but I'm with Ars Technica in the
              "healthy skeptic" camp. I do hope they beat the odds.
       
            samizdis wrote 4 days ago:
            Yes, I remember being particularly disappointed when Google's
            Project Ara [1] to create a modular mobile phone was shelved. It
            seemed like a fantastic idea, and I truly thought that
            Alphabet/Google had the cash/clout - and will - to deliver.
            
            Still, I haven't lost my optimism just yet. As you say, good luck
            to Framework with the laptop project.
            
   URI      [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
       
              xondono wrote 3 days ago:
              I was never very optimistic about Ara. In general, modular
              electronics is a good idea in paper, but a terrible one in
              practice.
              
              - It comes with quite the price tag, adding connectors everywhere
              gets expensive fast.
              
              - Some interfaces are very tricky to modularize, RAM & CPU are
              very closely linked, and it’s very hard to protect them from
              ESD.
              
              - Which generally points you to the PC solution, don’t protect
              it, enclose everything and standardize.
              
              There’s also the more “business” part of modular
              electronics. PC parts are only cheap through massive volume, but
              building a modular phone requires you to (mostly) build all of
              your parts. The only way to make it feasible requires more than
              one device using the same modules, which defeats the uniqueness
              of the device.
              
              Laptops are way more feasible just because that modularization is
              already on the market, and you don’t need to build your own RAM
              SODIMMs or SSDs.
       
              jkepler wrote 3 days ago:
              There's Fairphone, already two generations of modular phone
              design. Unfortunately, they're only officially supported in
              Europe. But if you're in Europe, and want a modular phone,
              they're where its at.
       
                Tijdreiziger wrote 3 days ago:
                And IIRC they have LCD screens... Always-on display is a
                'killer app' for me, so that immediately rules out the FP2.
                
                (Tangentially related: I don't really understand why Apple
                doesn't include this feature, even though they use OLED
                screens.)
       
              estaseuropano wrote 3 days ago:
              See Fairphone!
       
              tpmx wrote 4 days ago:
              Project Ara seemed quite impractical/naive at the time. Myself
              (and some people I trusted) dismissed it as yet another Google
              flight of fancy.
              
              This thing though, I can kind of see it working.
              
              Basically: The pressure to minimize volume + weight is way too
              high for a mobile phone to become modular. Then add recent
              requirements like IP68 ratings.
              
              In a laptop there's still some breathing room for modularity. And
              noone expects a laptop to survive an accidental drop into a pool.
       
              lallysingh wrote 4 days ago:
              They were competing with their partners, that was always going to
              end poorly.  It could only ever be an experiment.
       
                blacksmith_tb wrote 4 days ago:
                Hasn't that always been true? Their Pixel 4a kept me from
                buying a competitor's product.
       
              robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
              I feel like building a modular laptop is much easier than a
              modular phone. You don't have to deal with the hardware
              enumeration problems on x86 as you do with ARM
              
              Already many laptops you can easily swap parts like the HDD/SSD,
              Battery and RAM, and even the GPU (to an extent) if its using a
              standard like MXM. Building a laptop with more modular parts
              using existing standards (looks like from the images the modular
              parts are using USB C Thunderbolt?) is much more doable than a
              modular phone.
       
                pimeys wrote 3 days ago:
                It wasn't that long ago when manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo
                had models where you could basically replace almost everything.
                I guess still models like the T14 allows you to replace RAM,
                SSD, Wi-Fi card, keyboard, touchpad and even the screen.
                
                For the older models, even screen replacements are quite common
                in the ThinkPad community...
                
                Good luck for this project though, we really need more
                companies like this!
       
                  notagoodidea wrote 3 days ago:
                  On some older Thinkpads, even CPU replacement was on the
                  menu.
       
                    pimeys wrote 2 days ago:
                    I think the 2012 generation was the last one. T420 at
                    least.
       
                baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
                Yep, designing custom ssd, gpu, ram pcbs will be of course more
                expensive, and take time.
                
                USB 3, and Thunderbolt are also complete disasters power
                consumption wise, not to say that Type-C, and Thunderbolt chips
                cost arm, and a leg.
       
              kilroy123 wrote 4 days ago:
              I too wanted to see this work, but I was skeptical. Maybe it's
              just too ahead of its time?
       
        de_nied wrote 4 days ago:
        How much overhead will there be from having USB-C connected "Expansion
        Cards"?
        
        Will there documentation or support for enabling people to create their
        own expansion cards (for ex. like S/PDIF)?
        
        Will there be any support for high-end processors, perhaps in the
        absence of a dGPU? Dell Latitudes 14" laptops have an Intel i7-10850H
        which has 6-cores/12-threads, 2.70 GHz base, 5.10 GHz boost clocks. In
        addition, will cooling be customizable? The Latitudes run pretty hot.
        
        Finally, is there a ball-park on the price range we can expect on
        pre-orders and say 1 year from release? $1,000? $2,000? Will it also be
        a high upfront-cost, but low replacement parts cost? Will they both be
        relatively high? Both low?
       
        lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
        This is the machine I was dreaming to have!
       
        fossuser wrote 4 days ago:
        Neat - I wonder how it’ll turn out.
        
        It’s weird how little there is in the laptop space that’s actually
        good.
        
        Macs, Thinkpads, maybe Dell XPS?
        
        Everything else sucks. It’d be cool to have another high quality
        option.
       
          tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
          The Razer laptops are IMO the best Windows option available. Not as
          good as the other options if you're running Linux, though.
       
          folkrav wrote 4 days ago:
          Thinkpads are far from being uniformly good, some models flat out
          suck. Macs aren't immune to lemons either - see all the issues with
          their keyboards after 2016, or the failing GPUs in some MBPs. Some
          XPSes are good, but many models had horrible coil whine as well.
          
          The LG gram was fine, if light and portable was what you're looking
          for. The HP Envy line has been pretty decent recently. Back in school
          I've had an Asus Zenbook I've quite liked as well. I've heard good
          things about some System76 systems too, and they're basically Clevo
          rebrands.
          
          There definitely is good stuff on the laptop market.
       
            kitsunesoba wrote 4 days ago:
            I recently strongly considered a System76 Lemur but ultimately
            opted for a Thinkpad X1 Nano instead due to reports of QC issues
            with Clevo (and thus System76) laptops. It's too bad because I
            think they get a lot right with bringing Linux to the general
            consumer market, and Pop!_OS gets a few things right that plain
            Ubuntu gets wrong.
       
              xur17 wrote 3 days ago:
              I have gone down a similar path twice now, and also landed on the
              Thinkpad X1, due to a mix of QC concerns, low screen resolution,
              and bulky looking laptop. My main concern about Framework is QC,
              and making a sleek laptop (something that I would guess would be
              difficult to get right directly out of the gate).
       
              GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
              How do you rate the X1?
       
                kitsunesoba wrote 3 days ago:
                I haven't had it long enough yet to say anything conclusive,
                but initial impressions are good.
                
                Compared to a MacBook, build feels solid if not quite as rigid
                but that's expected with how light it is. Doesn't feel flimsy.
                Keyboard roughly on par with that of a 2015 MBP, but with a bit
                more travel. Doing lightweight tasks it doesn't get hot on my
                lap or spin up its fan.
                
                So far have only used the included Windows 10 Pro license. Not
                sure how Linux fares on it but from what I've read you'll need
                a distro with a newer kernel.
       
            fossuser wrote 4 days ago:
            Yeah I’m with you that even in the categories I mentioned there
            are problems.
            
            System76 comes up a lot, but to be blunt they seem awful.
            
            Bad resolution displays, generally terrible build, bezels, etc.
            
            I think there’s a market for a really good non Mac laptop with
            Mac quality hardware design.
       
              folkrav wrote 3 days ago:
              My point was, those high end machines that compete with mac
              laptops already exist. XPS, HP Spectre, Surface laptop, higher
              end ThinkPads and ZenBooks, Razer Blade Stealth and Pro...
              
              As for S76 systems, you can't really compare a $2000+ Macbook
              with a $1000 System76/Clevo ODM with the same criteria. They're
              just perfectly fine machines for what they cost.
       
                fossuser wrote 3 days ago:
                > "They're just perfectly fine machines for what they cost."
                
                Sure, but I don't care about the 'crap' segment of laptops. I
                want more options at the Macbook price point. People often talk
                about System76 as if they are Mac competitors too, so I don't
                entirely buy your point.
                
                > "High end machines that compete with mac laptops already
                exist"
                
                And they mostly suck. There isn't a good option that's a clear
                stand out Macbook competitor. There is no Windows/Linux
                hardware that's easy to point at and say this is clearly the
                one to get. All the competitors are a mixture of bad tradeoffs.
                Why?
                
                I would think Microsoft would want to make a Surface laptop
                that's competitive in this space (that targets developers), but
                they haven't really.
       
                  folkrav wrote 3 days ago:
                  > And they mostly suck.
                  
                  Agree to disagree - I pointed you towards 5-6 of them that
                  globally don't suck. Macs also have tradeoffs of their own
                  that you seem to have no trouble dismissing.
       
          jtl999 wrote 4 days ago:
          I've heard good things about Clevo based designs in the past but even
          those seem to be questionable now.
       
        numair wrote 4 days ago:
        The website says that it’s by members of the founding team from
        Oculus. You know what else is from the founders of Oculus? A company
        making AI-directed killer drones and other toys being pitched as
        essentials for World War III.
        
        In 2021, the ethics of your products are as important as the products
        themselves. And yes, there’s a ton of hypocrisy if we compare to
        $BIG_CO, but that’s one of the tough parts of being young and new in
        an era where the young new guys have gone from 0 to 100 and gotten old
        and evil real quick.
        
        Sorry to be so harsh, but Oculus connection that wins you VC dollars
        will get in the way of a lot of other things in unexpected ways if you
        want to tap consumer / prosumer. If you go after the defense market,
        however, you’re golden! Not kidding. Call me crazy, though, but I’d
        rather have my dollars end up as far from war lobbying as possible.
       
        tommybu wrote 4 days ago:
        I love the initiative! It's in line with the right to repair movement
        which, considering the HN crowd, is more than welcome these days.
        
        I wonder though are there any plans to support coreboot?
       
        andrewmcwatters wrote 4 days ago:
        This is really cool, but I feel like the industry is missing something
        like ATX for laptops.
        
        That's what I really want. And hell, come out with a mini-ATX for
        laptops if you're concerned dimensions won't end up competitive.
       
        Sebb767 wrote 4 days ago:
        This looks great, I _really_ hope this becomes sustainable and a long
        running model.
        
        I've upgraded my laptop just in 2020, but when Ryzen-based mainboards
        and some high-bandwith plugins (10 Gbit SFP+/RJ45 or Thunderbolt)
        become available, this will definitely go on the list. So best of luck
        to you to become mainstream, so that these niche-parts can be
        cross-financed ;)
       
        dethos wrote 4 days ago:
        This is awesome, has the same "spirit" of the Fairphone. I think this
        is the direction the industry should be moving. However it will not be
        easy to break this vicious and wasteful cycle that feeds many companies
        nowadays.
       
        marcodiego wrote 4 days ago:
        What is really needed is a common chassis. A common carcass that allows
        me the put whatever I want inside it. If I want a pinebook[1], I want
        to be able to put pinebook guts inside it, if I want a mnt reform[2], I
        want to be able to put mnt reform guts inside it.
        
        Too bad eoma68[3] is still sci-fi. [1] [2]
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/
   URI  [2]: https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-per...
   URI  [3]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
       
          vforvendettador wrote 3 days ago:
          There's a lot more to building laptop than putting different
          components together. Portability, mobility, heat dissipation, design
          to put as many things as safely (and profitably) possible etc.
          
          Building a desktop is relatively easy. Desktop is designed to be
          stationary and it's a lot more forgiving when connecting parts.
          There's a lot more room to manoeuvre and for heat dissipation.
          
          I think to achieve the purpose, where end-user will be able easily
          customise a laptop will require a larger footprint and won't be
          appealing to many users.
       
          soared wrote 3 days ago:
          I would expect this is similar to the tesla issue of building a
          common carcass (skateboard) to build different types of cars on top
          of.
       
          mtrovo wrote 3 days ago:
          In some sense Thinkpad X200 would fit what you're saying, its modding
          community is quite active and there are a lot of people selling old
          parts or parts designed to upgrade this laptop.
          
          Last time I checked the only missing piece was a way to upgrade the
          display, which didn't age very well (IIRC original resolution was
          1280x800 and no HiDPI)
       
          eeZah7Ux wrote 4 days ago:
          The form factor of EOMA is simply unsuitable. Compared to any laptop
          motherboard or SBC, the volume available in the slot is tiny.
       
          CivBase wrote 4 days ago:
          > What is really needed is a common chassis.
          
          I agree.  I understand why that wasn't a thing 10 years ago while
          laptops continued to get thinner and bezels continued to get smaller
          and I/O was rapidly changing and evolving.  Modern laptops are much
          more consistent, and standards like M.2 and USB-C have provide
          excellent support for low-profile expansion.  Now seems like a great
          time to start rolling out standards for laptop motherboard
          connectivity, display housing, keyboard/trackpad housing, and I/O
          bays.
       
            warmwaffles wrote 4 days ago:
            That's not where the money is though unfortunately. It's why
            manufacturers like the solder on components. Easier to manufacture
            and make as small as possible. I hate it, and think it's bad for
            consumers.
       
              vbezhenar wrote 3 days ago:
              They like solder because it's more reliable.
       
              scythe wrote 4 days ago:
              If the only barrier to building your own laptop was soldering the
              components together, I'd have built one already.
       
              CivBase wrote 4 days ago:
              We managed to get standards like that on desktops though.  What's
              specifically different about modern laptops?
       
                asdff wrote 3 days ago:
                And those standards are shifting away too. See recent iMacs and
                Mac Minis.
       
                uluyol wrote 4 days ago:
                Size, heat, weight, and noise are more challenging for laptop
                design than desktops. Desktops tend to have things spread out
                much more and you just don't care about some of these issues.
       
                  CivBase wrote 4 days ago:
                  Size and weight would definitely need to be consider by
                  component manufacturers, but it doesn't seem like that big of
                  a problem when it comes to standardizing a laptop chassis.
                  
                  Heat and noise are definitely bigger concerns since a compact
                  laptop cannot rely on large radiators, fans, and liquid
                  cooling loops for cooling.  But if you standardize the screw
                  holes and socket positions on motherboards and graphics
                  cards, I see no reason why a chassis couldn't ship with their
                  own case-specific cooling solutions which leverage heat pipes
                  and low-profile fans to provide cooling.  Processor locations
                  are already pretty consistent on desktop motherboards and
                  graphics cards, so this wouldn't be something particularly
                  new.
       
        ampdepolymerase wrote 4 days ago:
        So a ThinkPad in Mac shell? Is the framework flexible enough to switch
        an Intel processor for AMD Ryzen without having to replace the entire
        motherboard?
       
          rrss wrote 4 days ago:
          No. You can't even do that in a desktop. AMD and Intel CPUs don't use
          the same socket or pinout.
       
        villgax wrote 4 days ago:
        This is excellent, would have loved swappable 18650 based battery packs
        too!
       
        mark242 wrote 4 days ago:
        Very disconcerting to launch a laptop without any mention of battery
        life.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          Apologies for that.  We packed in a 55Wh battery and are using
          popular silicon and a display that is used in several other popular
          notebooks, so you can use those as a reference point.  We didn't want
          to state a figure in hours until we wrap up our firmware work and can
          release reproducible benchmarks for it (since battery life marketing
          statements tend to be pretty questionable).
       
        skrebbel wrote 4 days ago:
        Love the logo on the back of the screen. No stupid slogans, just the
        cog, looks great! It makes no rational sense, but I'd want to own one
        just for that.
        
        Hope there's gonna be a touchscreen version! After all, a UI that you
        can't touch is like coffee that you can't smell.
       
          willyt wrote 4 days ago:
          I didn't get the idea of a touchscreen laptop until I got an iPad
          recently, now I'm constantly trying to touch my laptop screen and
          then getting confused when I doesn't do anything.
       
        pmontra wrote 4 days ago:
        Nice project. However I see no Gigabit ethernet port. USB dongle for
        the one of us that prefer the performance and the predictability of a
        cable over Wi-Fi's whims?
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          A Gigabit Ethernet Expansion Card is on our roadmap, though it is
          going to look a little goofy compared to the other cards, since it
          won't fit entirely in the current envelope.
       
            LeifCarrotson wrote 4 days ago:
            I'll second the parent's request for an RJ45 Ethernet port. It
            can't possibly look any goofier than an Expresscard Ethernet
            adapter!
            
            One easy way to get it to fit would be to make the module thicker.
            To avoid the whole thing sitting at an angle in the existing
            envelope, you'd want to replace the little adhesive-secured feet
            with taller, screw-secured feet to give it clearance.
            
            I'm a controls engineer and am constantly connecting to PLCs and
            robots in environments that don't do wireless networking. I have to
            deal with all kinds of legacy hardware manufacturer's IDEs and
            real-time protocols that work poorly with USB dongles.    Of course,
            your expansion cards are really USB dongles, and appear to allow
            tool-less hot-plugging ( [1] ). I'd love to see an optional screw
            to retain the card, and wouldn't mind shutting the laptop down and
            rebooting it, especially if it meant it showed up in
            /etc/network/interfaces all the time and never needed to be kicked
            out of sleep with `ip link set dev eth0 up`.
            
            Other desirable expansion cards would be a VGA port or DB9 serial
            port; would those fit?
            
            I fear that your efforts to reach beige-box compatibility are
            really hamstrung by the obsession with thin and light laptops;
            there's no way (for example) that you'll fit my preferred keyboard
            (Lenovo 45N2211, out of a T420) and still have the hinges close
            because the enclosure is so thin.  I hope you succeed, but I
            especially hope you produce a 15" workstation version that's 10mm
            thicker.
            
   URI      [1]: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/exp...
       
              Finn1sher wrote 3 days ago:
              I wouldn't want it to be too thick, but I have to agree that a
              quality keyboard is SUPER important. At the very least, 2mm
              travel is much nicer than 1.5mm.
              And because it's modular, they might as well add a programmable
              ortholinear option! It would be a first in the laptop world, and
              may actually be successful due to the rising popularity of
              ergonomics.
              
              Maybe the 2mm ortho could have standard qwerty labels printed on
              the side of the keycaps, so it's not as obnoxious when people
              bind different layouts or macros.
              
              If I were to buy one, I would also buy the 15" version. Old
              thinkpads are awesome.
       
              pmontra wrote 3 days ago:
              If they do a 15" laptop, please make the keyboard configurable. I
              mean, no number pad for people like me and number pad for people
              that need it and tolerates an off center touchpad and space bar.
       
        sho_hn wrote 4 days ago:
        I don't see any information on the licensing of the adapter card /
        inter-module interfaces.
        
        Can others build a Framework laptop without approval? Can others build
        cards without approval? Will it be a platform?
        
        Tell me how this isn't a Nespresso machine for silicon pods. :-)
        
        Edit: To be clear, even a "we have a generic base laptop and you can
        pick your I/O" concept is potentially a nice value prop, but it'd be
        good if the picture (and roadmap) was clear.
       
          znpy wrote 4 days ago:
          tbh the adapter card really looks like a simple adaptor with an
          usb-c/thunderbolt plug on one side. it'll take a week or two for
          chinese knock-off to appear on aliexpress etc.
          
          what i wonder is:
          
          - can those cards be locked in place?
          
          - can i hotplug/hot-unplug them ?
       
            nrp wrote 4 days ago:
            They are hot swappable, and they latch in place.  There is a button
            on the bottom of the system to release the latch.
       
              rzzzt wrote 1 day ago:
              Can they be locked in place? I'm wondering if it will withstand
              the pull of eg. the USB-A connection while it is being unplugged,
              and disconnect on the USB-C side instead.
       
              znpy wrote 3 days ago:
              thanks!
       
          Eric_WVGG wrote 4 days ago:
          They're just USB-C dongles that snap into the chassis.. You can see
          better shots here: [1] This is an unpopular opinion, but I think this
          proves that Apple was right to dump legacy ports. This solution is
          sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of internal space that could
          have been spent on a bigger battery. USB-C, and the correct cables,
          are all anyone needs.
          
          (the Nespresso analogy is ridiculous, a laptop doesn't exist to
          consume adapters. But I presume you were enjoying a little
          tongue-in-cheek with your coffee)
          
   URI    [1]: https://frame.work
       
            bigpeopleareold wrote 1 day ago:
            There was at one point a couple of years ago when I had to attend
            more meetings at work that I would the be the one presenting
            something on my thinkpad only because everyone else had a macbook
            and forgot their dongle. It could be solved by buying dongles for
            each room possibly, but this was a persistent problem anyway.
            (Thankfully, there is fewer meetings and they are just online now
            :) )
            
            I don't need the ports that much, but it is nice when the needed
            ports are just there, because it is usually a selection of ports I
            need. Maybe other people don't need what I need, but I prefer
            having some occasionally port present, knowing its there when I
            need it.
            
            I think this project takes a novel approach to the problem, sort of
            like what expresscards offered. Here, you can just add the ports
            you need if you need as your defaults.
       
            jonnycomputer wrote 3 days ago:
            Yeah. Who needs a swiss army knife anyway. Just carry two knives, a
            can opener, a corkscrew, a nail filer, a pair of scissors, a saw, a
            screw driver, fish scaler, magnifying lens and toothpick.
       
            addicted wrote 3 days ago:
            What Apple did was gave people a solution that looks good on the
            retail floor, but in practice involved carrying a bunch of dongles,
            which take up more space, can break more easily, can be easily
            forgotten and are more finicky while using.
            
            In practice it leads to a significantly worse product for the vast
            majority of users, for the benefit of the minority that falls in
            the pro crowd and is able to get all their work done solely through
            USB-C ports.
            
            But the Apple Pro crowd users tend to include a lot of audio/video
            professionals who have a lot of expensive devices they tend to
            connect through USB-A, HDMI, etc, Photographers who were big fans
            of the SD card readers, and business people who didn’t really
            need pro devices but could afford them, and were fan of the video
            outputs for connecting to projectors and monitors, and maybe even
            LAN inputs because many offices tend to discourage WiFi networks.
            
            I think Apples big mistake was a category mistake. If they had made
            the MacBook or MacBook Air all USB-C, for example, there wouldn’t
            have been too much of an outcry. But the MacBook Pro line is the
            same one that carried a FW 400 port years after FW800 had been
            released and even after FW itself was kinda dead besides certain
            niche applications (which tended to be popular with Apple pro
            users).
       
              zepto wrote 3 days ago:
              > the vast majority of users
              
              The vast majority of users don’t carry a bunch of dongles
              around.
              
              It’s just true.  What are most people doing?
              
              Zoom, Excel, PowerPoint, Browser, Slack, etc.
       
                rsj_hn wrote 3 days ago:
                There are dongles at home and dongles to carry. For home, I
                need a DVI adaptor that goes into a separately powered USB 3
                hub so I can use a monitor, and I can plug my keyboard and
                mouse into that. I am not a fan of the extra wiring though,
                needing to power the hub takes up one more electrical outlet,
                but it's not mobile and I can hide it, so no biggie.
                
                But that means when I carry the laptop around I have to carry a
                dongle for the mouse or not use the mouse. It depends. The
                mouse is ergonomic and easier on my hands than the trackpad, so
                I prefer to carry it. It's just one dongle, and I'm already
                carrying the mouse, so not too bad.
                
                I also need USB 2 for my Yubikey, which is USB 2.0.
                
                Before I had USB headsets but that would be 3 USB 2.0 devices
                and my portable hub only accepts two, so I ditched them and
                switched to the old wired iphone earbuds since they are light
                and stateless.
                
                That also means I have to give up my ergonomic keyboard and use
                the flat keyboard, but usually that's OK unless I am on a long
                trip. If I'm on a long trip, I'll want that ergonomic keyboard
                after a lot of typing at which point it's 3 USB 2.0 devices and
                then I need to bring the powered hub with its own adaptor. I
                can leave that where I'm staying and just take the mouse to the
                coffee shop. But this adds complexity.
                
                All in all, it's doable, I'm not complaining that it is an
                insurmountable obstacle, but I would prefer a computer that was
                a bit thicker and heavier but had more ports built just to
                reduce the overall complexity of the setup and not worry if I
                brought everything with me. When you compare the weight of the
                usb hub and its adaptor to the extra weight added by adding a
                few more ports, I'd prefer the laptop to be a bit less
                demanding in input requirements. To me that would make for a
                more mobile solution overall.
                
                But honestly these are minor issues.
       
                  zepto wrote 3 days ago:
                  Sure - I’m not saying nobody needs dongles.  I have several
                  usb hubs and dongles attached to my desktop iMac.
                  
                  I’m just saying that that simply isn’t true for most
                  people.
       
            novok wrote 4 days ago:
            I think either are fine TBH.  Framework will definitely be a niche
            play to a segment of a pro market that is currently ignored.  It
            will probably cost more than most equivalent laptops.  They could
            in the future make a chassis that is just 4 USB-C ports and give
            you the space savings for other things.
            
            I think the flush USB-C dongles are actually clever in another way,
            you could make storage expansion bricks that have pass through USB
            (or no passthrough) and get more storage on your laptop beyond the
            one M.2 slot.  It would be especially nice for video editor types,
            who I've seen literally velcro expansion SSDs to their macbooks
            with USB angle adapters [0] because dealing with dangling drives is
            annoying.
            
            [0]
            
   URI      [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ljFfuzStEQ
       
            JoshTriplett wrote 4 days ago:
            > This solution is sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of
            internal space that could have been spent on a bigger battery.
            
            I wondered about that as well. Looking at the picture at the top of
            the main page, I see one small battery, and electronics that take
            up 2-3x the size of normal laptop electronics. Most current laptops
            have 60-80% of their chassis space occupied by batteries.
            
            However, the description mentions a 55Wh battery, which is quite
            reasonable for a thin-and-light laptop. It says 1.3kg, which is a
            little heavier than desirable for the form factor (1-1.2kg), but
            not by much. On balance, this looks like a much more reasonable set
            of tradeoffs than past "repairable laptop" efforts I've seen;
            Framework is putting serious hardware engineering effort into this.
       
            robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
            If it were a phone, I would agree. But laptops are much roomier,
            and the space lost is probably negligible.
       
            znpy wrote 4 days ago:
            > This solution is sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of
            internal space
            
            this is true, yet... I'd be okay with that, to be honest.
            
            My current work laptop (a dell latitude 7390) is a jewel also
            because it's got a lot of ports. I have used them all at least
            once, but quite frankly, never all at the same time.
            
            So yeah, being able to unplug a port and plug a different one it's
            almost the perfect middle ground.
            
            we're pretty much all carrying dongles anyway (not me, the dell
            latitude 7390 has all the ports i might need)
       
            e12e wrote 4 days ago:
            I guess someone misses pcmcia modems and network cards. Does seem a
            bit odd to not just go for plenty of USB c ports.
       
            lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
            >I think this proves that Apple was right to dump legacy ports.
            
            How it proves it? Those guys do not drop ports, they just make them
            modular.
            
            All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
            space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
            
            I still dream to meet the one who made such 'wise' decision to tell
            him what I think about it personally!
            
            >USB-C, and the correct cables, are all anyone needs.
            
            I am not sure you can know what anyone needs. For instance you do
            not know what I need.
            
            I wish you'll be around when I need to copy my files from the
            camera with idiotic dongle in the field when time is precious.
            
            I would love then to hear how sticking card directly into the slot
            without any headache is less comfortable than looking for some
            dongle in the bag while holding your camera equipment and then
            hanging dongle on it's wire because there is no table around to put
            your laptop on or put it somehow on your lap and try not to move to
            avoid it breaking during the transfer because then you'll have to
            start again  transferring your important pictures. Then pray it
            will work
            because some times it will not when you need it most.
            
            Removing sd-card reader slot is example of the most idiotic design
            decision I can imagine. It is taking what works perfectly and
            destroying it for no reason at all. It is pure damage without any
            benefits taking size of it into account.
            
            It was done by people who never used laptop for transferring photos
            from the camera using sd-card.
            
            They never thought that while you transfer with the sd-card your
            other card is available to continue shooting in critical or
            unexpected situations. This is what makes the difference between
            making some shots and not! I would never understand this idiocy of
            removing sd-card slot to "save space".
            
            The whole point of laptop is to save YOU space and headache or
            space in your BAG! Not in the laptop itself by making it useless.
            Such a dumb decision to remove useful ports. Goodness.
       
              ogre_codes wrote 3 days ago:
              I must be doing something different from you. I have one adaptor
              on my desktop which lets me get display/ power/ USB A. It’s
              nice because it means removing the laptop means unplugging one
              thing.
              
              I don’t take any dongles with me. Or any adaptors. My laptop
              case is just a protective sleeve and sometimes I bring the power
              brick.
              
              It would be nice to have one USB-A port, and HDMI, but it’s not
              that big of a deal either.
       
                lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                >I must be doing something different from you.
                
                You do. From my perspective you are barely use laptop as laptop
                for any serious work on the go.
                
                Look at my use-case
                
   URI          [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
       
              Eric_WVGG wrote 4 days ago:
              I'm not sure what you need "tons of adaptors and wires" for since
              you're only talking about SD cards, but to address that one
              example: what percentage of laptop users are professional
              photographers? One percent? A quarter? There are at least six
              fashion photographers in my apartment building and even I know
              they're a negligible slice of the  population.
              
              Apple should not be designing their laptops around the needs of
              1% of users. That's just dumb. They should be designing for most
              users, and they are.
              
              Which strategy makes more sense…
              
              1. users who need SD card readers should carry around SD card
              readers
              
              2. users who don't need SD card readers should carry around SD
              card readers
              
              I don't need an SD card reader! I'm glad Apple is using that
              space to make the laptop more portable with the most battery
              possible.
              
              The whole point of laptop is put as much power as possible into a
              device that is as portable as possible. The point of a bag is to
              carry around shit that YOU might need and the rest of us don't.
              Goodness.
       
                lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                Before going any further you do realise that there is enough
                space for micro-sd-card reader even on raspberryPi Zero?
                
                And I hope you do realise that I am talking about sd-card
                reader just for the most obvious example, it doesn't mean I
                have nothing more to say or wish from laptop.
                
                I think this is not about what majority wishes when you develop
                a tool that you label as 'Pro', it's about what device can and
                cannot do and as such what Man can and can't do using it!
                
                >I'm not sure what you need "tons of adaptors and wires" for
                since you're only talking about SD cards...
                
                First of all it is a real mobile usage. And I mean serious 
                usage 'on the go' (and it could be 3 month + of 'the go')
                My laptop is the only machine I have and could have in such
                scenario. And as far as I know this is exactly what laptop was
                meant to be - device for mobile work.
                
                My use-cases are:
                
                I do Software Development:
                
                - Developing software for iOS: Which means I need to have one
                of each kind for testing iPhone/iPad/iPadPro and connect each
                of them periodically. Only for that purpose more ports are
                justified because I would prefer to have 4 at least to connect
                all 3 iOS devices plus hard_drive for backup etc. If there is
                additional monitor around that I could use I would love to use
                it which means I need HDMI/display port.
                
                - Developing software for MacOS. I am developing FileManager
                for Mac and few other projects on the go. Which means Xcode and
                resources it requires. Also external monitor port hdmi/dp - any
                I can find around depending where I am.
                
                - Developing software for GNU/Linux. which means sometimes a
                need for Ethernet port to track down issues.
                
                - Using Terminal for remote connections to raspberryPi/s which
                means wired connections when there is a need of speed or some
                problem. It also means I use sd-card-reader for this too.
                
                - Developing software for reMarkable tablet. which means VM
                GNU/Linux machine on Mac which requires
                more_storage/more_memory/more_processing_power and again free
                USB-A port to connect rM for speedy connection/charging.
                
                - Making some hardware projects on the go:
                Arduino/ESP32/8266/raspberyyPi etc. which means periodically
                connecting those and I must have cable connections when
                something breaks and wifi would not help. I also do not need
                additional dongle in the chain when tracking down some
                problems. It saves a lot of time to have less items to check as
                the check itself takes time * number of times you do it.
                Needless to say that those devices barely work with simplest
                USB 2.0
                
                I do Music:
                
                -  I play Guitar. So I need to connect a Guitar for
                recording/performing, which means I need line-in .
                
                -  I sing and if I wish to record it I also need external mic
                which means one more usb/line-in.
                
                - I play Piano: If it's real piano the same needs for mic if
                it's electronic piano - perhaps line-in, if it's midi - usb.
                
                You know at least one line-in would be great just in case I
                wish to connect something in creative situation for creative
                purposes.
                
                I do massive Photography/Videography:
                
                - Some times work as photographer/videographer. I have Nikon
                Camera with sd-cards and need periodically but intensively
                transfer of huge Video Footages.
                
                Wifi for such sizes is simply not an option. I also need ports
                to connect few drives at the same time.
                
                I need diff types of ports if I work with other people and
                usually they are not equipped. Again the difference sometimes:
                it's done or not due to some dumb limitations.
                
                - I do Argentinian Tango Teaching/Dancing/Performing.
                
                Which means I need remote control to stop/play music during the
                class. Where the IR port that worked fine?
                
                I need wired audio connection to
                whatever-audio-system-i-can-find and if my bluetooth speaker
                doesn't_work/not_enough for certain halls . I would also need
                HDMI/DP/DVI or even VGA port to have external screen connected.
                
                I never know what screen will be available at some place. Again
                the difference would be: It's doable/Its' not doable.
                
                - I also need to relax and watch movies some times and I also
                wish to do it with friends sometimes which means
                HTMI/DP/DVI/VGA whatever we can find.
                
                I do not know your use case but as you can imagine with all
                that activity the last thing I need is another dumb dongle to
                deal with.
                
                Since I travel with my guitar I have 'literally' no space in
                the bag for adapter and wires because most precious things I
                have to take with me on the plane and I have to pack them
                really tight if I wish to avoid boarding complications.
                
                I simply have no space in the bag nor space in my mind to deal
                with another stupid problem like dongle/adapter.
                
                There are projects that require all of theses use-cases
                simultaneously. And since I wish to do things with top quality
                possible I need all the equipment to work perfectly too because
                I relay on it and if it doesn't work it usually means something
                will not be done. I am sure any pro would confirm that. I
                simply cannot afford having some stupid dongle. Believe me. I
                need MacBookPro and it should be really 'Pro'!
                
                Again, I do not know your use-case but for me some people are
                just barely using laptop as laptop at all for goodness sake.
                
                And if we are talking about 'Pro' shouldn't we listen to people
                like me who is literally using all the features to the full
                extent.
                
                These are my use-cases and what are yours?
       
                webmobdev wrote 3 days ago:
                Who needs earphone jacks too right? /s
       
                  lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                  Exactly. I do need it. I also need mic/line in jack for
                  guitar/any_other_instrument where _any_ delay is not
                  desirable
       
                tstrimple wrote 3 days ago:
                How far do we take this? What percentage of Macbook users use
                the tilde key? How many users open the terminal? What
                percentage of users use multiple desktops?
                
                The reason Excel remains the dominant spreadsheet software is
                because it has dozens of features that other spreadsheet
                applications don't have. Each one of those features is only
                used by a small portion of the user base but if you add up the
                users which use at least one of these features it starts
                representing a significant chunk of users. Each of those
                feature independently isn't worth implementing in competing
                platforms because "Google sheets should not be designing their
                app around the needs of 1% of users", but the culmination of
                all of those features add up to a platform Google Sheets just
                cannot compete with.
       
                  jki275 wrote 3 days ago:
                  Nope.
                  
                  The reason that Excel remains the dominant spreadsheet
                  software is that it's the best spreadsheet out there, and
                  it's almost universally installed on all school and business
                  computers.
       
                  zepto wrote 3 days ago:
                  The difference is that software doesn’t take up physical
                  space or use physical resources.
                  
                  The answer about how far we should take it is, as far as is
                  reasonable.
       
                    tstrimple wrote 3 days ago:
                    Is the space actually being used more effectively? What can
                    fit in the laptop without a SD card slot that couldn't fit
                    with one present? Why is a smooth side with no ports
                    somehow more valuable than a side with usable ports? You
                    can't think you'll see any savings passed along to use for
                    Apple taking out a part that costs them a few dollars at
                    most. Removing the feature won't save any consumers any
                    money, only reduce usability overall.
       
                      whynaut wrote 3 days ago:
                      > What can fit in the laptop without a SD card slot that
                      couldn't fit with one present?
                      
                      More battery.
       
                        bigpeopleareold wrote 3 days ago:
                        ... which will have to occupy an extremely thin case.
                        
                        I mean, extreme thinness is not really an important
                        criteria for many, but everything seems to gets
                        compromised to serve that goal.
       
                gowld wrote 3 days ago:
                Why would I buy a laptop based on what you need, instead of
                what I need?
       
                  Eric_WVGG wrote 3 days ago:
                  That’s my point exactly, I don’t want to buy the laptop
                  you need either. Since Apple can’t make models for all
                  users, they design around the needs of most users. And
                  practically nobody needs SD card readers.
       
              tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
              I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly. I'm
              pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use case. I
              feel like only extremely serious photographers and perhaps a
              particular slice of musicians use them. It makes absolutely no
              sense for them to have that built into the laptop. 99% of people
              who own Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because
              they don't need it. However, and extra USB-C port can be used for
              a multitude of things, including being an SD card reader if you
              have the dongle.
              
              It's completely logical.
              
              > The whole point of laptop is to save YOU space and headache or
              space in your BAG!
              
              It most certainly is not. The point of a laptop is to strike a
              balance between portability and usability. Requiring the extra
              like two cubic inches of space in your bag for a dongle is
              assuredly not a design concern.
       
                lmm wrote 3 days ago:
                If we actually got enough USB-C ports to make up for all the
                removed ports (like, 8 or so?) then I'd agree with you, and be
                willing to put up with the temporary pain of dongles for the
                sake of a glorious future where everything's USB-C. But we've
                ended up with the worst of both worlds: say I bring out my
                laptop for movie night and I want to plug in power, projector,
                surround sound, a DVD drive, and a mouse, that was easy 5-10
                years ago and it's impossible now.
       
                  c17r wrote 3 days ago:
                  This is my complaint about the latest iPhones. I’m fine
                  with the move from analog to digital but WHY just one port!?
       
                  opan wrote 3 days ago:
                  They make hubs/docks with many ports that only need one of
                  your USB-C ports. There's also daisy-chaining to consider. I
                  think you most likely could connect all those things.
       
                    lmm wrote 12 hours 15 min ago:
                    I ended up having to daisy chain a dock to a USB hub, and
                    then I would get errors if I connected the wrong things to
                    the hub because I was breaking the 7 hub limit (turns out a
                    lot of things have extra internal hubs). Obviously I did
                    get it to work eventually, but it felt a lot more
                    complicated and fragile than in the old days.
       
                lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                >I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly
                
                It does. Micro-sd-card reader fits even in raspberryPi Zero ...
                Neglectable "space saving" advantage vs huge usability
                disadvantage.
                
                > The point of a laptop is to strike a balance between
                portability and usability.
                
                I think MacbookPro should be about philosophy of amplifying
                creative person with power tools for creativity in a portable
                way. Not a dumb machine mimicking more and more some TV . While
                this it should also do easily it shouldn't do just this, I
                think.
                
                Look at my use-case: [1] From my perspective of extensive use
                of a laptop some people barely use laptops at all and thus
                perhaps they better be designing something else because for me
                it appears they have no idea what 'Pro' usage is. When you
                travel you never know what environment you'll have and therefor
                ports and connectivity make a difference between: Creative idea
                done/ not done.
                
                >Requiring the extra like two cubic inches of space in your bag
                for a dongle is assuredly not a design concern.
                
                It's not 2 cubic inches. It's huge adapter with all missing
                ports. Why Pro Laptop should consist of two parts is beyond me.
                
                Again look at my use-case. I have no place for dongles nor time
                for dealing with them.
                
                If those real 'Pro' requirements are not a design concerns then
                perhaps MacbookPro should not have 'Pro' in the title in my
                opinion.
                
   URI          [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=26271855
       
                  craftkiller wrote 2 days ago:
                  This looks to satisfy all your requirements from your
                  original post: [1] Its ~2 cubic inches and doesn't dangle on
                  a cable so you don't need a table/lap.
                  
                  As for your more detailed post you just linked to:
                  
                  > Only for that purpose more ports are justified because I
                  would prefer to have 4 at least to connect all 3 iOS devices
                  plus hard_drive for backup etc. If there is additional
                  monitor around that I could use I would love to use it which
                  means I need HDMI/display port.
                  
                  USB4/thunderbolt 4 allows for type c hubs that also support
                  alt-modes like displayport alt-mode so you can have a small
                  cellphone-sized hub to significantly increase your ports: [2]
                  > I would also need HDMI/DP/DVI or even VGA port to have
                  external screen connected.
                  
                  Surely you're not suggesting that laptops built in 2021
                  should have a VGA port? This is exactly what tomtheelder was
                  referring to when he said:
                  
                  > I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use
                  case [...] 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever don't
                  own an SD card dongle because they don't need it. However,
                  and extra USB-C port can be used for a multitude of things
                  
                  Just think of all the extra thickness Apple would be adding
                  to their laptops just to fit a VGA port 99.9% of people would
                  never use.
                  
   URI            [1]: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1514535-REG/s...
   URI            [2]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RYZJY8M
       
                    lovelyviking wrote 2 days ago:
                    >This looks to satisfy all your requirements from your
                    original post:
                    
                    Thank you for the link. Unfortunately it only looks so.
                    
                    It satisfies only partly because it's still headache to
                    remember where it is, remember to take it and when
                    something like that sticks out of your machine probability
                    to break it when there are people around is very high and
                    not unusual. Also you can tilt accidentally your laptop and
                    it cat potentially break the port completely.
                    
                    With all that said the reality now for instance that it is
                    simply not available in the country I am right now
                    unfortunately. I cannot move because of the covid situation
                    and I am limited with what I can order. My MacbookPro has
                    died gracefully (you can read how if you wish: [1] ) I have
                    managed to get M1 machine but now I'll have to deal with
                    adapters that are available around.
                    
                    Because I do not have sd-card-slot my photography is
                    limited to zero currently until I find adapter that would
                    work. I have additional headache to choose one that works,
                    and they lie about the specs and you never know what you
                    get so this is the reality of all those theories about 'oh
                    you can get a dongle'.
                    
                    I just wish to add that when you are really mobile and
                    travel in different countries it is Not unusual situation.
                    Even if it's developed country it's not easy to order
                    something in a small town or even in a big town. Usually
                    small towns do not have something you need, you can count
                    on that. Probably you can buy a new Mac probably like I did
                    but it's M1 with 2 ports and some nice adapters will be not
                    available there. Again this is the reality , not the theory
                    where you can access everything you need whenever you need
                    it.
                    
                    The second item you've mentioned is nice. Thank you again.
                    It can be useful when I'll be able to reach it. Right now
                    all my drives are usb3 to fit MacbookPro I had. This hub is
                    also requires power supply brick as I understand and again
                    it would be simply impossible to get the hub you've
                    mentioned where I am at the moment.
                    
                    So in my case it will be huge adapter hanging on wire and
                    let us pray it will work as expected.
                    
                    >Surely you're not suggesting that laptops built in 2021
                    should have a VGA port?
                    
                    No, I am not suggesting that. HDMI an micro-sd-card reader
                    do not add any thickness though and are  still very useful
                    for flexibility in real world. When I took my previous Mac
                    I thought I will not use HDMI but mobile reality made it so
                    that at some point it was the only way I can use it and
                    extract data from it and the external port allowed me to
                    boot gnu/linux. The M1 Mac on the other hand become not
                    bootable in the first day because of the bug in DiskUtility
                    and I needed  'another Mac' to make it even bootable again
                    so from my perspective I did not upgrade I have downgraded.
                    
                    >_extreme_ niche use case [...] 99% of people 
                    For me it's not about how many people use something it's
                    about what a portable computer allows you to do and how
                    flexible , productive and creative you can be with that
                    tool. I do not want to go further about what else 99% do
                    not do ... following majority was never too exciting for
                    me.
                    
   URI              [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25809097
       
                ogre_codes wrote 3 days ago:
                I generally think the whole dongle issue is over exaggerated,
                you can mostly just buy new cables (once) and be done with it.
                The SD reader is one of the big exceptions I think. If you
                always need a cable to do something, you can just replace the
                cable with a USB-C one and be done with it. Having an
                integrated reader is handy for a fair number of people and
                it’s something where you don’t otherwise need an adaptor.
       
                  Qwertious wrote 2 days ago:
                  The new cables means your cables aren't backwards compatible
                  though - one day you need to plug in a display port cable to
                  someone's desktop/old laptop and you don't have the cable on
                  you, because you replaced it to avoid dongles.
                  
                  Dongles are both cheaper and more flexible than replacing the
                  cable, at the cost of having a slightly shittier experience.
       
                dvdkon wrote 3 days ago:
                I use my notebook's SD card reader all the time. Cameras, ARM
                SBCs, 3D printers, random SD cards I find laying around...
                There's plenty of use cases for an SD card reader, I certainly
                use video out on my notebook much less.
       
                  opan wrote 3 days ago:
                  It's also the main storage on the Wii, DSi, 3DS, (maybe Wii
                  U, but it also had USB storage. I guess the Wii did too.) and
                  Switch. An SD card reader lets you back up your game saves or
                  install homebrew.
                  
                  More recently there's the PinePhone as well. It's not just
                  expandable storage, you can boot off the SD and have all your
                  OS and files there.
                  
                  I would say I definitely use SD cards more than flash drives
                  now.
       
                  tait wrote 3 days ago:
                  > random SD cards I find laying around
                  
                  Can we explore that a bit?  Laying around your house?  Or
                  like on the ground at work?
                  
                  I seem to remember some corporate espionage that relied on
                  people looking at random SD cards they found on the ground...
       
                    dvdkon wrote 3 days ago:
                    Mostly my and my friends' homes, but I do remember finding
                    an SD card on the ground once... Do you think I'm being
                    targeted by spies? :) It had someone's pictures on it, but
                    no identifying information, so I had no way of returning
                    it.
                    
                    Thankfully random SD cards should be much safer than random
                    USB devices, but it's probably better to be careful.
       
                      bigiain wrote 3 days ago:
                      > It had someone's pictures on it, but no identifying
                      information, so I had no way of returning it.
                      
                      You could hav put your laptop on a network with heaps of
                      monitoring going on, and then mailed it back to
                      NSA/GRU/MSS/Mossad as required based on the ip addresses
                      your machine started connecting to...
                      
                      ;-)
       
                webmobdev wrote 3 days ago:
                >  It makes absolutely no sense for them to have that built
                into the laptop. 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever
                don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it.
                
                That's the issue - you are speaking only from an Apple user
                perspective. Android (and other non-apple) phones allow us to
                extend our storage with sd cards, and they are mostly used to
                store and transfer photos and videos.
       
                  thw0rted wrote 5 hours 53 min ago:
                  I'm an Android user whose phone supports microSD.  I never
                  take the card out of my phone -- it's a PITA, requires an
                  ejector tool I always manage to misplace, and I think I'm
                  only supposed to do it with the phone powered off -- but I do
                  plug my phone into a computer to move files on and off of it.
                   I do this with a USB-C cable.
       
                  bigiain wrote 3 days ago:
                  > Android (and other non-apple) phones allow us to extend our
                  storage with sd cards
                  
                  /me looks glumly at my Apple-ized Samsung Galaxy S6Edge, with
                  no SD card or removable battery. (Both of which would make
                  the S6/GearVR combo significantly more useful...)
       
                  EvilPaticus wrote 3 days ago:
                  Is that an Apple user perspective or just reality for the
                  average user? I recently had an Android phone for a while and
                  never thought to use an SD card because it had plenty of
                  internal storage. I can say the same about my family and
                  friends who use Android devices, I can't think of any who use
                  SD cards at this point. Even in the past when I did use an SD
                  card in my phone, I simply plugged my phone into the computer
                  and wrote to the SD card that way, I don't recall ever
                  removing the card.
       
                sib wrote 3 days ago:
                And most "extremely serious photographers" today are probably
                using cameras for which SD cards are not the storage format (or
                at least the preferred format.)
       
                  lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                  It Depends how you measure "extremely serious photographers".
                  Starting from Nikon d610 you have descent quality on sd-card
                  plus portability in the same time. I understand that you
                  can't put all the ports in the world in the laptop and while
                  CF Cards reader would also be useful for photography I think
                  sd-card reader or even micro-sd-card reader gives a
                  compromise for mobile solution that covers many needs.    Lack
                  of this sd-card reader gives additional headache and nothing
                  more useful as I see it.
       
                  Terretta wrote 3 days ago:
                  Exactly.  And since we might carry more than one model of
                  camera with dissimilar memory cards, the Mac could need 3 or
                  4 slots. That’s why the good pro photo USB-C adapters have
                  3 or 4 slots.
                  
                  Further, those readers seem to be made /just/ fast enough to
                  read ahead of the current speeds, so when new speeds come
                  out, you need a faster reader.    That works fine if you have a
                  USB 3.1 or USB 3.2 adapter, but not so great if the reader is
                  built into a laptop with an otherwise much longer life.
       
              sjs382 wrote 4 days ago:
              > How it proves it? Those guys do not drop ports, they just make
              them modular.
              
              In the case of the framework laptop, most of the "modules" just
              seem to be USBC/Thunderbolt-to-X dongles that fit flush with the
              case.
       
                nine_k wrote 3 days ago:
                This is very important.
                
                For those who use a laptop outside office desks, there is a lot
                of difference between flimsy setups with dongles hanging on
                wires, and the mechanically solid laptop case. Much easier to
                carry it around in one piece.
       
                  sjs382 wrote 3 days ago:
                  If you need something more 'rigid', things like this exist:
                  
   URI            [1]: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/product/B07PCP5J4Z
       
              sgustard wrote 4 days ago:
              > All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
              space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires
              
              It's a reasonable tradeoff. Imagine your laptop with the power
              supply built in instead of as an external brick.
       
                lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                >It's a reasonable tradeoff.
                
                Saving 0.1% of space for micro-sd-card reader and having
                headache of dongle for every photo/video transfer? Doesn't
                appear reasonable at all. They have found space for
                micro-sd-card reader on raspberryPi Zero ... It's absurd not to
                have it even on the phone.
                
                Look at my use-case [1] > Imagine your laptop with the power
                supply built in instead of as an external brick.
                
                You know what? Great! One thing less to care separately . It
                would be bad thermal solution though.
                
                By the way the brick itself was coming with extension cord. Now
                it comes without it. Imagine during your travel squeezing it in
                some public place with bad socket to charge it when it doesn't
                fit well enough and could even fall and break and your life
                depend on your ability to charge it. Do it few times during few
                travels, then you will understand how "reasonable" was to even
                to remove the extended power cord from the brick.
                
                Many things appear 'reasonable' on the paper until you use them
                in real life.
                
   URI          [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
       
                recursive wrote 4 days ago:
                You mean I could charge with any cable?  How do I get it?
       
                  sjs382 wrote 4 days ago:
                  For my M1, I thought I was in a pinch when I forgot my
                  charger at work.  I was fine, though—I just plugged in my
                  18W USB-C phone charger and used it while WFH.
       
                    imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
                    I hope iphones swap to USB-C soon for exactly this reason.
       
              randomchars wrote 4 days ago:
              > All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
              space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
              
              Maybe that's the case for you, but that's far from universal. I
              have zero need for any adapters. At work, I can use usb-c to
              connect to my monitor, and if I need to present in a meeting
              room, I do it wirelessly.
              
              At home, I can use airplay to share my screen to my TV.
       
                saagarjha wrote 3 days ago:
                Your monitor which happens to have ports on it?
       
                  randomchars wrote 3 days ago:
                  It does, and well, they all sit empty and unused.
       
              yonaguska wrote 4 days ago:
              > All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted
              space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
              
              A good dock solves this- it's not mobile, but I find that I'm not
              really that productive when I'm travelling anyways.
              
              I only wish that docking solutions became standard offerings with
              the laptops that skimp on ports.
       
                lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                >A good dock solves this
                
                It doesn't solve it. Look at my use-case [1] >it's not mobile,
                but I find that I'm not really that productive when I'm
                travelling anyways.
                
                Laptop is for real mobile usage. In a way you have no need for
                it according to your description.
                
   URI          [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
       
              sleepybrett wrote 4 days ago:
              I'm down to exactly one adapter in my bag. One usb-c male to
              usb-a female stubby little guy.
              
              If I'm heading to someplace where I think I might need more than
              1 usb-a port or a situation where I might need a bit of a usb hub
              I just pack this little 'dock dongle' that's about three inches
              long and an inch wide that has three usb-a ports (2x3.0 1x2.0),
              an hdmi port, a sd and tf card slot, an ethernet port, an audio
              jack, and a usb-c power input port... cost me all of 60$.
       
                jonnycomputer wrote 3 days ago:
                All of this thread comes down to those who want their laptops
                to be Swiss Army knifes ready for any situation, and those who
                don't.
       
                sjs382 wrote 4 days ago:
                I'm down to one, too.  And for what it's worth, I've used it
                about 5 times since I got my M1 in December: [1] If "using it
                on your lap, without something hanging" matters to you (like
                the parent) and you wanted something more 'rigid', things like
                this exist:
                
   URI          [1]: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B085ZQZXFX
   URI          [2]: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/product/B07PCP5J4Z
       
                  CoolGuySteve wrote 3 days ago:
                  Yeah I'm in complete agreement.  A single "dock" dongle with
                  all the ports you could possibly want are cheap, light, and
                  have smooth designs that won't snag on anything.
                  
                  I have one buried in my bag that I almost never use.  It's
                  surprisingly rare that I need an Ethernet or HDMI port but
                  they're there if I need them.  In the meantime, there's more
                  room inside my laptop for battery.
                  
                  Even an extra 5Wh of capacity is about an extra hour of use.
       
                lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
                What you describe is exactly the headache I was mentioning and
                dreaming to avoid. I do not need part of the laptop separated
                from the laptop to have additional task to think when to take
                them together and when not to take them together.
                
                I do not want to search for this 'little guy' in the dark and
                be stuck without it when I forgot to take it because a lot of
                other things happening in the same time around or I lost it or
                somebody took it because he thought it belongs to him by
                mistake.
                
                Having the dongle headache or not in certain situations means
                missing shots or not. And I speak from experience of shooting
                intensively in addition to doing other things during 5-7 days
                in a arrow where you do not always have time to eat/sleep and
                surely no time to waste for this dongle BS.
       
                  treve wrote 3 days ago:
                  The issue with this thread is that it seems like an argument,
                  but different people just have different sensibilities.
                  
                  Get the machine that suits _you_. Unless you want to run
                  Apple OS because then you're not given choice.
       
                    lovelyviking wrote 3 days ago:
                    For me it's not about what suits who. For me it's about
                    what philosophy you put into design of a portable computer
                    as a tool and what it can allow/encourage you to
                    achieve/create.
       
                    funcDropShadow wrote 3 days ago:
                    > Get the machine that suits _you_. Unless you want to run
                    Apple OS because then you're not given choice.
                    
                    And that is exactly the point. I used to be a very happy
                    customer of multiple Macbook Pros over almost a decade.
                    Currently, I am still using my 2015 Macbook Pro 15" with
                    maxed out specs when not in my home office. But all the
                    later models went downhill for my needs. The new Macbook
                    Air M1 is the first model that I am thinking about buying.
                    It is probably powerful enough to work on it, and I think I
                    actually get some value back from the saved spaced due to
                    dropped ports. Even the 2015" Macbook Pros with 15" are at
                    a thickness were I simply see no point to  remove even half
                    a milli-meter of thickness. I would gladly use a thicker,
                    heavier variant if it had multiple different ports
                    including Ethernet. One problem that I had over the time
                    with all Thunderbolt dongles was that the physical
                    connection became unreliable over time. That is hassle I
                    don't want to deal with.
       
                      tait wrote 3 days ago:
                      They are supposedly bringing back more ports...
                      
   URI                [1]: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.macrumors.com/g...
       
            CarelessExpert wrote 4 days ago:
            Looking at the design, I'm not sure that expansion card concept is
            responsible for the thicker case.  The reality is, supporting
            replaceable memory, mainboard, etc, likely necessitated a somewhat
            thicker design.
            
            Assuming that's correct, I think it's kinda clever... it's
            basically a dongle system that allows the modules to sit flush
            instead of jutting out of the side of the laptop.
       
            bryanlarsen wrote 4 days ago:
            Is it a useful form factor on other laptops?   The market for RJ45
            dongles is a lot larger than the market for framework, so if a
            vendor can hit both markets with the same product they'd be more
            likely to do so.
       
            XorNot wrote 4 days ago:
            Apple burns almost all of their space savings on making the machine
            thinner, to the point of absurdity.
            
            Apple is content to push everything into dongles (which you have to
            carry around anyway) to get it thinner. The point at which I can't
            have a wired RJ45 ethernet port is already ridiculous - that is not
            a thick connector. Same with fullsize USB ports.
            
            Battery life there are hard limits as well: nobody is making a
            laptop with more then 100Wh, because that's the limit that you can
            carry onto an aircraft.
       
              bee_rider wrote 4 days ago:
              People seem fine with it.
              
              If you are bringing your laptop to a coffee shop, you probably
              won't need an ethernet port anyway, so you can leave the dongle
              at home. Lots of mobile use-cases don't involve plugging in to a
              ton of things, so why waste space having ports for it?
              
              We're mostly programmers here, with nice keyboards and big
              screens as a necessity for work. On the other hand, lots of
              people are completely content with the base laptop. Making things
              easier for us at their expense is probably not a great business
              decision.
       
                funcDropShadow wrote 3 days ago:
                But lots of other mobile use case do involve plugging in to a
                ton of things. I would like to have the option to get the ports
                builtin. I am not arguing they should stop making those
                crippled variants without ports.
                
                Luckily, macOS is going downhill as well, therefore my pain
                will end when the next version has not resemblance to a Unix
                system any more. The day Apple starts migrating its desktop OS
                to hamburger menus, I'll wipe and sell all my remaining Apple
                hardware.
       
                  bee_rider wrote 3 days ago:
                  They could make different models and operating systems for
                  every niche I guess, but people who need lots of ports and a
                  UNIX-like experience on a laptop are pretty far out in the
                  tail of the distribution I think.
                  
                  I dunno. I've never owned a macbook because Linux has been
                  good enough for most of the time I've seriously been using
                  computers for work stuff. Even if you aren't a Linux
                  enthusiast, the time to switch for developers was more than a
                  decade ago, IMO.
       
              gertrunde wrote 4 days ago:
              Agreed, the point when I start to have to choose any two of 
              usb-tethered phone / usb to ethernet / usb to wifi headset / usb
              to serial really gets infuriating.
       
                sleepybrett wrote 4 days ago:
                
                
   URI          [1]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079GSMZ7G/
       
                  gertrunde wrote 3 days ago:
                  While that's great an everything, my preferred option is less
                  dongles, not daisy-chaining them...
                  
                  Edit: Actually, didn't spot the Ethernet port on the first
                  glance, might be worth a deeper look. :)
       
                  znpy wrote 4 days ago:
                  i have one of those, they work very well.
       
              ppezaris wrote 4 days ago:
              I'm sorry who is using RJ45 ports on a laptop these days? Seems
              like that question was asked and answered years ago, and wifi has
              won.
       
                anonu wrote 3 days ago:
                Depends on who your audience is. HN crowd: give them an RJ45.
       
                t0astbread wrote 3 days ago:
                Apart from what everyone else was already saying I have another
                cool use case: When transferring large files between two
                devices it's neat to be able to establish a point-to-point
                Ethernet connection between them, configure static IP addresses
                and netcat the files over it. It's fast, I don't need to
                encrypt anything and I'm not hogging anyone's bandwidth.
       
                NovaS1X wrote 3 days ago:
                Every single one of our laptops gets sent out with an
                accompanying Ethernet dongle. Every one.
                
                Still very much useful in corporate environments.
       
                webmobdev wrote 3 days ago:
                Come on, that's ridiculous - wired LAN is more secure and
                faster than Wifi - anywhere I go, I prefer wired to Wifi.
       
                funcDropShadow wrote 3 days ago:
                Hands up.
                
                My laptop is sitting at home 1,5 m away from my Unifi access
                point and the network cable is still measurably more reliable
                and performant. Wifi might have won the amateurs.
       
                robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
                At work when at my desk. If every device in the office were on
                Wifi, things would be a mess
       
                  imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
                  USB-C Dock solved this problem for me.
       
                NikolaNovak wrote 4 days ago:
                Yo (hand up).
                
                I mean. Really. That strikes me as willfully ignorant and
                arrogant. Clearly it's heavily used, especially in
                professional/corporate environments.
                
                FWIW I use WiFi if I have to on the move.
                
                But at home and office it's hard wire all the way.
                
                In the office it's not even an option, everybody must.
                
                At home, it's a quality of life thing.
                
                The speed drops and disconnections and unpredictability of WiFi
                are not thing of the past yet. For some there's a security
                issue as well, real or perceived.
                
                Wire just works.
                
                Edit: other examples - gaming laptops; secure networks; dense
                environments either urban or corporate; anything that needs
                predictable connectivity, bandwidth and lag really :-/
       
                  imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
                  "Clearly it's heavily used, especially in
                  professional/corporate environments."
                  
                  It's so clear that they removed it from their lineup? Clearly
                  you're wrong. I have two Macbooks work/home, and a USB-C dock
                  has been life changing in its awesomeness.
                  
                  And yes my dock has RJ-45 ;)
       
                    NikolaNovak wrote 3 days ago:
                    Hmm I feel we're getting circular.
                    
                    There are discussions on:
                    
                    1. Is a particular connector still used/useful on laptops -
                    my statement is that RJ45 is absolutely still used on
                    laptops, and went into some examples / use-cases.
                    
                    2. Separate discussion, hopefully informed by the first, is
                    how do we do that - built into laptop or via a bunch of
                    dongles.
                    
                    Apple in particular removing it from their laptops does not
                    speak one way or another to corporate/professional
                    environment requirements. Their approach is "use a
                    dongle/dock" which in their view is compatible with
                    whatever use case is needed (and some people disagree,
                    which is fine - lots of vendors and in particular
                    HP/Dell/Thinkpad all have robust
                    professional/corporate/roadwarrior models with dock, port
                    and even pointing stick capability).
       
                    fomine3 wrote 3 days ago:
                    Kensington lock is widely used by enterprise (pro) but
                    Apple won't support it. The "Pro" is just marketing
                    comparing to "Air".
       
                    ben-schaaf wrote 3 days ago:
                    > It's so clear that they removed it from their lineup?
                    Clearly you're wrong.
                    
                    They also removed scissor switches, sd card readers and
                    hdmi. But they're bringing those back (or have already), so
                    they don't seem like a good authority to appeal to here.
       
                      imwillofficial wrote 2 days ago:
                      Have they? Their newest laptops are USB-C only.
       
                  adrian_b wrote 3 days ago:
                  Exactly the same applies to me.
                  
                  Both my own laptop and the laptop from my employer (a large
                  company) are used almost all the time on wired Ethernet, the
                  main exception being during business trips.
       
                m4x wrote 4 days ago:
                I use it on a regular basis to connect to industrial networks.
                Wireless is not typically available in that situation and for
                good reason.
       
                liotier wrote 4 days ago:
                Welcome to dense urban environments, where the list of
                available wi-fi networks is well above fifty and the throughput
                well under 100 Mb/s on a good day... When I sit at my desk, I
                plug the RJ-45 and I get 1 Gb/s - no ifs, no buts !
       
                km3r wrote 4 days ago:
                I use mine nowadays, because my room is just far enough from
                the access point for occasion zoom drops. The 'better' solution
                would have probably been to put an access point right in my
                room, but I already have an RJ45 dongle + ethernet cord and I
                trust a cable connection to have less drops than wifi.
       
                auxym wrote 4 days ago:
                I've worked in many companies (both software and non-software)
                where ethernet was the only way to access the corporate
                network.
                
                One had WiFi that only gave internet access, the other had no
                WiFi at all (in 2017).
       
                msla wrote 4 days ago:
                > I'm sorry who is using RJ45 ports on a laptop these days?
                
                Everyone who understands collision domains.
                
                Everyone who understands bandwidth.
       
                  imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
                  I don't think you understand collision domains.
       
                    msla wrote 3 days ago:
                    I understand that a WiFi LAN is one.
       
                      imwillofficial wrote 3 days ago:
                      Every port on a switch is one.
       
                        msla wrote 3 days ago:
                         [1] > By connecting each device directly to a port on
                        the switch, either each port on a switch becomes its
                        own collision domain (in the case of half-duplex
                        links), or the possibility of collisions is eliminated
                        entirely in the case of full-duplex links. For Gigabit
                        Ethernet and faster, no hubs or repeaters exist and all
                        devices require full-duplex links.
                        
   URI                  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_domain
       
                          imwillofficial wrote 16 hours 0 min ago:
                          "or the possibility of collisions is eliminated
                          entirely in the case of full-duplex links."
                          
                          So is a wifi connection full or half duplex?
                          
                          I don't think you understand collision domains.
       
                jdxcode wrote 4 days ago:
                I would say I run into a situation where I dig my RJ45 dongle
                out of my bag once per year still. Usually if I'm in a
                different office or trying to fix Wifi or something.
                
                For me the dongle is annoying but probably sufficient.
                
                I've also worked in offices where the Ethernet was better
                because it didn't require VPN access and was more reliable, but
                in those situations I plugged it into my monitor rather than
                directly into the laptop.
       
              Razengan wrote 4 days ago:
              > a wired RJ45 ethernet port is not a thick connector.
              
              ……………
       
                ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
                There are ultra-slim foldable RJ-45 connectors[1], which
                manufacturers could use if they could be bothered but they
                don't, because they would rather save the BOM cost of it and
                advertise the WiFi capabilities instead.
                
                Only Fujitsu use them AFAIK.
                
   URI          [1]: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/12/8/1675...
       
                  xyzzy_plugh wrote 4 days ago:
                  I've seen them on some ASUS laptops as well.
       
                  znpy wrote 4 days ago:
                  laptops without an rj-45 ethernet connector are just dumb.
                  
                  it's perfectly feasible to integrate one.
                  
                  just look a the dell latitude 7390. really, look at it:
                  
   URI            [1]: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/eB6gGRDZWSYT4XW6Se...
       
                    rplnt wrote 4 days ago:
                    That's just a place to gather junk. People rarely use rj-45
                    these days, that's why it's not present on most laptops.
       
                      ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
                      If by people you mean consumers, then yes, if you mean
                      corporate/tech workers, then no.
       
                        rplnt wrote 2 days ago:
                        I mean all people. When you work on the laptop you
                        probably connect more things than a network => you have
                        a dock => you don't need the rj45. So there might be
                        negligible amount of corporate workers that need it,
                        and some portion of tech workers, maybe. But overall,
                        out of all customers, it's not enough for the hassle.
                        Especially since it has drawbacks for the rest of the
                        customers.
       
                        Toutouxc wrote 3 days ago:
                        I don't think we even have a cable with RJ45 in the
                        office I work in. Everyone's on Wi-Fi. All developers.
                        Just saying.
       
                          ChuckNorris89 wrote 3 days ago:
                          In our case it's the opposite. Whole company is
                          wired. No WiFi.
       
                            Razengan wrote 3 days ago:
                            In our case it's the opposite. Whole company is
                            WiFi. No wired.
       
                              znpy wrote 3 days ago:
                              we have it mixed: both wifi and wired are there.
                              pick what's best for you.
       
                  bombcar wrote 4 days ago:
                  I don't see how that DOESN'T get broken on the second use,
                  honestly.
       
                    jdxcode wrote 4 days ago:
                    One careless snag of the cable would have to rip the
                    aluminum apart I would think
       
                      freeone3000 wrote 4 days ago:
                      The connector's on the top, the bottom is simply a
                      retention clip. If it breaks, you can replace it with
                      tape, or simply resting the laptop on a surface while the
                      cable is plugged in.
       
                    ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
                    Because it's meant for ultra-slim devices that will be
                    docked on Thunderbolt 99% of the time and that foldable
                    RJ-45 jack is for the "in case of emergency break glass"
                    scenarios, that 1% of the time when you need to patch into
                    a server physically without wasting time looking for a
                    dongle, not for you to constantly plug/unplug ethernet
                    cables in your laptop.
                    
                    If your uses case requires you to constantly plug/unplug
                    ethernet cables in your laptop then you need a workstation
                    class laptop with a full sized RJ-45 jack, not a sleek thin
                    and light.
       
                    GekkePrutser wrote 4 days ago:
                    That one yes. But Lenovo has great collabsible Ethernet
                    ports that are very durable and this laptop is more than
                    thick enough to house one.
       
            sho_hn wrote 4 days ago:
            > the Nespresso analogy is ridiculous
            
            Well, sort of :-) Nespresso is a famous implementation of a "your
            basic machine stays static, you swap out a different element of the
            system based on temporary/current needs, but you can only buy those
            elements from one vendor" pattern. Printer ink cartridges are
            another.
            
            Yeah, add-on cards to a computer aren't consumables per se - but
            the entire premise is that as time goes on you might want to get
            new ones (because your current needs change), i.e. upgrade. Whether
            I can pick upgrades from different vendors, and what the tax
            imposed on creating and/or selling upgrades is, matters.
       
              gregmac wrote 4 days ago:
              I don't understand this criticism. On every other laptop on the
              market today, if you want different ports you either buy dongles
              or buy a whole new laptop.
              
              Every laptop I've ever owned has at least one port I never use,
              and after a couple years it's missing some other port I'd rather
              have. This one seems to solve that problem, extending the life of
              the machine and/or avoiding dongle hell.
       
                sho_hn wrote 4 days ago:
                If the value prop is that it's nice to move the port adapter
                dongle into the chassis rather than having one dangle from a
                port, so it's an ergonomic improvement you're sold on, sure.
                I'm not saying that can't have a market.
                
                But if you can only buy the dongle from one vendor, it's going
                to be more expensive than if there's a market where multiple
                vendors compete. It's that "you can only buy the adapter from
                Apple, and it's really expensive" thing, just moved into the
                chassis.
                
                Hence the question which one of those we're looking at here,
                and it was kindly answered by a rep above.
       
            baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
            Luke Leighton tried to make something like this for a really long
            time.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          We will be releasing specifications and reference designs for the
          Expansion Card system under a permissive license.  We want to make it
          easy for both other companies and members of the community to develop
          their own cards and sell them through the Framework Marketplace. 
          That is something we'll be detailing and sharing between now and the
          time we start shipping out the product.  We'll also provide
          documentation around internal interfaces, though those will be more
          technically challenging for an individual to be able to build
          something with.
       
            kettro wrote 3 days ago:
            It mentions the keyboard as being modular - any chance of a
            trackpoint keyboard?
       
            rsync wrote 3 days ago:
            Can you somehow bring back the PCMCIA interface ?
            
            Favorite hardware form factor ever ...
       
              sedatk wrote 3 days ago:
              It looks like the laptop supports any kind of expansion card that
              can be bridged over USB-C. So, it's just a matter of someone
              developing it for the platform.
       
            jedimastert wrote 3 days ago:
            This might be a silly question, but it looks like the adapters are
            just usb-c/thunderbolt devices with a nice case. Is this the case?
            I'm not knocking it if it is, I personally think it'd be pretty
            clever, but it means being able to use them in other places (like
            pretending the storage expansion thing is just a usb-c flash-drive)
            and it would have interesting implications for making them.
       
              nrp wrote 3 days ago:
              That's correct.  That is one of the intended use cases for our
              Storage Expansion Cards.  You can use it on your Framework
              Laptop, pop it out, plug it into an other machine that supports
              USB-C, and transfer files at high speed.
       
                judge2020 wrote 3 days ago:
                Dongles, but built into the case. Amazing.
       
                cwxm wrote 3 days ago:
                Not sure if that was your intention, but I would pay Apple
                level prices for this.
       
                musingsole wrote 3 days ago:
                I'm in love.
       
            kspacewalk2 wrote 4 days ago:
            >We want to make it easy for both other companies and members of
            the community to develop their own cards and sell them through the
            Framework Marketplace.
            
            What if they don't want to sell through the Framework Marketplace?
       
              nrp wrote 4 days ago:
              They can choose not to, but since the Framework Laptop itself is
              sold through our Marketplace, it's a good way to get in front of
              the existing users!
       
            marcodiego wrote 4 days ago:
            Any chance of the company ever releasing only the chassis so I can
            buy it and put my favorite arm sbc inside it?
       
              nrp wrote 4 days ago:
              Actually, yes!    We will be offering the chassis by itself.  The
              intent is to make sure that someone can get back into a good
              state if they drop their laptop down the stairs or something, but
              there is nothing preventing you from picking one up to use for
              your own projects (though adapting everything to work with an ARM
              SBC would be non-trivial).
       
                marcodiego wrote 3 days ago:
                Cool! Please make the display hdmi compatible and you will own
                an entire underserved market.
       
                traverseda wrote 4 days ago:
                What makes it non-trivial? I'd love to see a standard laptop
                frame that all the SBC manufacturers could throw their board
                in.
                
                I imagine their could be vendor-specific expansion cards for
                SBC's, like one that is just an HDMI extension which only works
                with the vendors SBC and doesn't use USB-c. Maybe vendors could
                implement one "framework" compatible expansion port and provide
                several of their own expansion cards that only implement SBC
                features, and plug directly into the SBC instead of generic
                usb-c.
       
              Shared404 wrote 4 days ago:
              I would also be interested in this.
       
            dmos62 wrote 4 days ago:
            Compatibility and upgradability (together with maintainability) is
            why I stopped using laptops. Your offer sounds interesting, but if
            it's a platform, instead of a free standard, it's a far cry from
            the freedom and competition in the stationary PC market. Maybe
            that's what it takes to move the issue along. I don't know. But
            that's my knee-jerk reaction.
       
            likesfwlaptop wrote 4 days ago:
            Hello, glad you're here but I'd urge you to remember that while a
            minority at HN is highly knowledgeable and technical, hn is an
            hive-mind opinionated niche and hope that you'd make decisions that
            widen your reach among general populace so that your firm survives
            to make money and eventually more such laptops. (Also, hopefully
            your laptop will play with linux as well as Lenovo's at some point
            in future).
       
              NicoJuicy wrote 4 days ago:
              Pretty rude and then you ask them to focus on <2% of market
              share...
              
              Perhaps there are more urgent tasks for "targeting the general
              populace to reach profitability".
       
                input_sh wrote 3 days ago:
                It might be <2% of all market, but amongst tinkerers? I'd be
                surprised if it's below like 10-15%.
       
                  ogre_codes wrote 3 days ago:
                  This is what I was thinking. Maybe even more.
                  
                  If this laptop doesn’t support Linux, it’s a big missed
                  opportunity.
       
                tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
                I think you've interpreted the comment you replied to
                completely backwards.
       
                  NicoJuicy wrote 3 days ago:
                  You sure? It's a new account and it's a totally weird comment
                  without any real value.
                  
                  Ps. That's why I hate potential sarcasm.
       
              teekert wrote 4 days ago:
              Did you find they don't work well with Linux? That'd be a big
              shame, I think the Foss crowd likes these kind of initiatives.
       
                mymindstorm wrote 4 days ago:
                It seems like it will work just fine:
                
                > For those of you who love to tinker, we’ve also created the
                Framework Laptop DIY Edition, the only high-end notebook
                available as a kit of modules that you can customize and
                assemble yourself, with the ability to choose Windows or
                install your preferred Linux distribution.
       
                  whitten wrote 2 days ago:
                  The modularity of a Framework Laptop promises a lot of good.
                  I know there are some workplaces where having wifi working is
                  not permitted.    Is this modular enough to have a wired
                  networking plug and not have a wireless wifi ?
                  
                  Thanks for your info
       
          oconnore wrote 4 days ago:
          Nespresso pods for silicon sound great! I’m not a hardware
          engineer, I’m just tired of $800 “replace the entire main
          board” repairs when I broke my ‘H’ key.
       
            Schlaefer wrote 3 days ago:
            These laptops exist today, just vote with your wallet. I don't
            know, Lenovo's T-series is popular, e.g. the T14: Here's how to do
            it (page 72) [1], new keyboard costs around 50 bucks.
            
   URI      [1]: https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/t14_gen1_p1...
       
            xbar wrote 3 days ago:
            I agree with you. I cannot avoid saying: you don't have to throw
            your whole coffeemaker out after every pot if you don't have
            Nespresso.
       
        gillesjacobs wrote 4 days ago:
        Great initiative, but the proprietary expansion cards are entirely
        counter-productive to maintainability.
        
        The expansion cards will only be available for as long as your company
        provides them. Using the most-commonly used, mass-manufactured standard
        interfaces for components would provide more long-term repairability
        and upgradeability.
        
        The trade-off would be in design resulting in more bulk and in the
        economics of your company, of course. It seems cynical to me to sell
        maintainability while starting a walled-garden ecosystem of proprietary
        hardware.
       
          colonwqbang wrote 4 days ago:
          It looks like the expansion cards are just USB-C adapters that fit
          inside the case. If so, it should be pretty simple to make a
          compatible expansion card. Or just plug in any dongle you like,
          ignoring the form factor.
       
          gregmac wrote 4 days ago:
          In the worst case (they change the interface spec and no one else
          produces old modules, or the company folds entirely) it's not any
          less maintainable than any other laptop on the market today. I think
          most laptops still allow storage and battery upgrades/replacement;
          RAM is questionable (some being soldered on the motherboard); and
          anything else basically means replacing the whole device.
       
          kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
          We will open up the expansion card spec and share reference designs
          to enable partners and the community to build their own! I want it to
          be open as much as you do.
       
            gillesjacobs wrote 3 days ago:
            Sounds like a good solution to me, I hope you succeed, I surely
            will keep an eye on the project!
            
            I assumed it wouldn't be an open design because the marketing
            didn't mention it. I would integrate this message in your marketing
            because it's worth convincing critical audiences.
       
            ehnto wrote 3 days ago:
            Is there a catching/locking mechanism for the expansion module that
            holds it in place? It would be a shame if the whole module came out
            when trying to remove a particularly firm USB connector.
       
              opsy2 wrote 3 days ago:
              Yes (source: another comment that described it. lock & button to
              remove. hot swapping supported)
       
            colonwqbang wrote 4 days ago:
            Is it "just" an internal USB-C connection to the expansion card? Or
            is there something else going on that could be more difficult to
            work with?
       
              kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
              Nothing that goes outside the usb/displayport standards. We have
              to be compatible to support the passthrough card :).
       
            ryandrake wrote 4 days ago:
            This is a great first step. Ideally the expansion story converges
            on some kind of industry-wide standard, like PCMCIA was. Would be
            cool to have other peripheral manufacturers out there agreeing on
            the spec and committed to building expansion hardware!
       
        burlesona wrote 4 days ago:
        Well, HN will love this. Moddable laptop with a good webcam? Nice.
        
        But:
        
        - I really dislike the arrow keys not having the air gap above left and
        right. You’d think they’d learn that from the MacBook butterfly
        keyboard era.
        
        - it’s a little disingenuous to say “no adapters” when in fact
        their little expansion cards are merely adapters that insert into the
        chassis of the laptop. Only four I/O ports is a little tight (despite
        Apple deeming it to be “enough”)
        
        - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today’s standards.
        
        It’ll be interesting to see how people respond, when many (especially
        in this crowd) have been clamoring for this kind of thing. How many
        will actually vote with their dollars, and will that be enough for
        Framework to survive and become a viable competitor in the laptop
        space?
        
        I hope so, as I welcome the diversity and innovation that would
        represent. But I admit I’m skeptical as to their chances.
       
          GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
          Not sure if we're looking at the same photos and specs, but it looks
          and seems thin and light to me - 16mm thick, and 1.3kg according to
          the specs. I'm aware you can get slightly thinner, but not much
          lighter. IMO, anything thinner that this is making horrible
          sacrifices elsewhere, for little more than diminishing aesthetic
          returns.
          
          Let's not forget that this is repairable, upgradable and expandable -
          when I first saw the HN title, I was convinced it was going to be a
          brick. It actually looks great, like a premium laptop from Dell or
          Lenovo. But supporting up to 64GB or memory, and repairable etc.
          Pretty amazing, I think.
       
          zerocrates wrote 3 days ago:
          I really do hate full-height left and right keys, they're strictly
          worse in my usage.
       
          andrewflnr wrote 3 days ago:
          It's not "disingenuous". Everyone knows they're talking about
          external dongles because those are the kind of adapter that's
          actually annoying. Complaining about their modules because they're
          implemented in terms of USB-C is the worst kind of technically true
          but semantically nonsensical nitpick, precisely because it takes a
          long comment like this to unpack it but only a few words to make it.
       
            Sebb767 wrote 3 days ago:
            And, additionally, using USB-C is a common and widely used standard
            - slamming them for using that instead of something proprietary (to
            make it less "dongly") is really not a good thing.
       
          gregmac wrote 4 days ago:
          > Only four I/O ports is a little tight
          
          Maybe, but how many do you really need?
          
          I have lots of stuff plugged in at my desk -- but it's plugged into a
          dock, and there's just a single cable that goes into my laptop.
          Thinking about my usages in the past few years, I can't think of a
          time where 4 ports (of my choosing) wouldn't have worked for me -- so
          long as I could change them over the lifetime of the device.
       
          mattowen_uk wrote 4 days ago:
          For me, the huge trackpad in the middle front is the problem. Centred
          trackpads, weren't a problem when they were about 1/2 the size, but
          they've steadily been getting bigger and bigger. Now almost all
          laptop trackpads are at a size where the base my thumb and the edge
          of my wrist brush against them, causing endless false touches. If I'm
          typing for any length of time on a laptop, I now always disable the
          touchpad and plug in a mouse. Give me a laptop with an offset smaller
          trackpad please.  I suppose people who only use a laptop, learn to
          type with floating hands with claw-like fingers, but I use a desktop
          most of the time, so my resting-wrists-on-the-desk style of typing
          doesn't work.
          
          I can't be the only person with this problem?
          
          Edit: While I'm ranting, I am 100% sure that the touch-logic in
          trackpads favour right handed people (same with mobile phone screens)
          and as a leftie it seems harder for me to perform complex multi-touch
          actions than it does for right handed people.
       
            burlesona wrote 4 days ago:
            The MacBook trackpad somehow knows when you’re not touching
            intentionally... so I agree with you in theory but on that laptop
            specifically the palm rejection is good enough that it doesn’t
            matter.
       
            jnwatson wrote 4 days ago:
            I'm with you.  I just got a new Precision and the track pad is 6
            inches by 3.5 inches (no exaggeration).  I think the idea was to
            accomodate left and right handers, but it has gone way overkill. 
            It is large enough to be a Wacom-style drawing tablet.
       
            OldHand2018 wrote 4 days ago:
            I hate Windows laptop trackpads because they seem to interpret
            everything as a click.    Fortunately you can turn that off in
            Control Panel.    Apple's default trackpad settings are good.
            
            EDIT - my new problem with Windows 10 is that it somehow interprets
            certain accidental motions on the trackpad as me wanting it to move
            to some sort of strange workspace overview screen that appears to
            be completely useless and not at all what I wanted.
       
              tomtheelder wrote 4 days ago:
              I think it's really case by case. My previous Dell laptop was a
              nightmare, but I have a Razer Blade now and the trackpad
              experience has been flawless, totally on par with my work issued
              Macbook.
       
          foobarian wrote 4 days ago:
          > - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today’s standards.
          
          I am not a fan of today's standards.  As I write (on an external
          A1243 keyboard) I look at the closed touchbar MBP in front of me and
          cringe at the gap between the cover and the body go from zero on the
          left to 1/4" on the right.  This laptop is too thin for its own good,
          for no good reason, and I look forward to how sturdy this design
          would be with the extra thickness (not to mention all the other
          goodies they list).
       
          intrasight wrote 4 days ago:
          If they indeed succeed in creating an open "platform" then if you
          don't like the keyboard, you can replace it with one that you do
          like.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          The arrow keys were an interesting challenge.  We actually prototyped
          both versions, and the full height ones ended up feeling better to
          most folks.  It's definitely a matter of personal preference though.
          
          The Framework Laptop comes in at 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg.  So a
          couple of sheets of paper thicker than a 13" MacBook Pro, but a bit
          lighter.
          
          On the Expansion Cards, that is fair.  We can say we're getting rid
          of the need for adapters that protrude from the machine and need to
          be removed when you need to transport it.
       
            technojunkie wrote 3 days ago:
            The arrow keys gap as an option would be awesome, I hope you
            reconsider
       
            ajford wrote 4 days ago:
            What's the chance of a thicker/deeper version in the future? I'd
            love to see one with enough thickness to support a low profile
            mechanical keyboard for custom layouts.
            
            With my RSI, I'm almost unable to use standard laptop keyboards, so
            I have to travel with a split ergo keyboard. Most laptops have
            enough room to support a split ortho layout, but aren't thick
            enough (or modular enough) for enthusiasts to roll their own.
            
            Take a look at the Thinkeys [0] and pineapple60 [1] projects for
            what's possible.
            
            [0]: [1]:
            
   URI      [1]: https://github.com/dennisleexyz/thinkeys
   URI      [2]: https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60
       
              CarVac wrote 3 days ago:
              Wow, that Pineapple is amazing.
              
              I gotta do that with a Mitosis layout for myself.
       
            mdpye wrote 4 days ago:
            How modular is the keyboard? I can see a replacement sat next to
            the case in the photo, but is the layout cut in to the case?
            
            If you can make an alternative case with an (e.g.) 12x5 1u grid
            layout keyboard that lets me put my thumbs to use and stop
            contorting my fingers, I will more of less open my wallet and let
            you take what you fancy!
       
              asoneth wrote 3 days ago:
              I came to say the same thing. Ortholinear (grid) or staggered
              columnar keyboards would appeal to an extremely small but
              passionate group of ergo keyboard users. Given that the
              alternative for folks who use this kind of layout is to carry
              around a separate $150-400[1] keyboard I think at least a few
              people would be willing to pay a hefty premium for a laptop with
              a customizable keyboard. [1]
              
   URI        [1]: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
   URI        [2]: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
       
        grenoire wrote 4 days ago:
        Is the upgrade system proprietary, i.e. will I be able to get in new
        parts besides RAM and disks when Framework is no more?
        
        Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust and modular
        as the desktop ecosystem?
       
          burlesona wrote 4 days ago:
          > Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust and
          modular as the desktop ecosystem?
          
          No.
          
          The robust desktop ecosystem is powered by a bunch of categories that
          don’t really want laptops: gamers, business, research, some
          developers, etc.
          
          Desktops are “work trucks” while laptops are mostly “cars.”
       
        mushufasa wrote 4 days ago:
        reminds me of this
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.ebay.com/b/CardBus-Laptop-Port-Expansion-Card/4232...
       
        saurabhnanda wrote 4 days ago:
        I feel horrible whenever I end-up damaging an electronics product in
        such a way that repairs do not make any monetary sense. Mostly this is
        because the manufacturer doesn't bother in building out a healthy
        service network for their product because they'd rather force you to
        buy a new model.
        
        If priced right, I'll buy this as my next laptop. And the next phone as
        well -- if they ever launch one.
       
        f6v wrote 4 days ago:
        > with the ability to choose Windows or install your preferred Linux
        distribution.
        
        10$ says it’s going to be quite an effort to run Linux on it. Nice
        idea though.
       
          kieranl wrote 4 days ago:
          Kieran from Framework Here - Using it as my main machine for
          development running Ubuntu 20.04 right now.
          The main tweak is running a mainline kernel with some distributions
          as Tigerlake support is new.
       
            rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
            Any luck with fingerprint sensor drivers? I know that's a big
            problem. Still not working on my 4yo thinkpad
       
            f6v wrote 4 days ago:
            Don’t get me wrong, it’d be great to have a good Linux laptop
            on the market. However, I’ve read too many Dell XPS reviews to
            stay on Mac(which is suboptimal due to the nature of my work).
            There’s always something that is misbehaving on Linux laptops:
            WiFi, the sleep mode(i.e. you open the laptop and it’s ready to
            work), touchpad, fingerprint reader. Maybe it’s too much to ask,
            but i) is your laptop MacBook-level smooth on Linux ii) how could
            you achieve it when big players with much more resources failed?
       
              SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
              The Dell XPS works fine on Linux if you get a model that is at
              least 6 months old. Usually what happens is on day one people go
              and add support for the wifi card and then it takes 6 months for
              ubuntu to ship a version that includes that support.
              
              After using both a macbook and a dell xps on linux this year, I'm
              a whole lot happier using the dell xps. The XPS has functional
              cooling at least.
       
              kiwijamo wrote 4 days ago:
              I bought a Lenovo X1 Carbon expecting excatly the situation you
              describe so stuck with the preinstalled Windows 10 for some
              months. I was pleasantly surprised when I summoned up the courage
              to try Debian. I had no trouble at all with all you described
              except the fingerprint reader (which Windows 10 also had trouble
              with FWIW). Was not planning on Linux as my daily driver but from
              Day 1 it worked well enough as an immediate replacement for
              Windows 10. The trackpad is not quite as good as the Mac but
              again seemed on par with the experience in Windows 10. Surprised
              you stayed on Mac despite listing fingerprint reader as a must
              have—I'm not aware Mac laptops have these?
       
                f6v wrote 3 days ago:
                Fingerprint reader is definitely not the top priority, but
                saves a lot of typing when retrieving a password from the
                password manager. And yes, I think all MBPs that have a Touch
                Bar had one, new airs as well.
                
                How’s battery life and thermals under Debian? I guess all
                Intel CPUs get hot, but at least my MBP is quiet enough.
                Battery life life isn’t that great though.
       
            auraham wrote 4 days ago:
            Nice to see that many of the developers/members of the team are
            GNU/Linux users. I would like to see if it can run other popular
            distros, like Elementary.
       
              kiwijamo wrote 4 days ago:
              Debian too. Although the fact they use Ubuntu suggests Debian
              support should be a given.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          We're putting in the work ourselves to make sure the most common
          distributions like Ubuntu LTS releases run smoothly.  We had that in
          mind as we selected key components in the system.
          
          Edit: And it's worth noting that a couple of folks on the team are
          diehard Linux users, including our software/firmware lead, and they
          run Ubuntu on their Framework Laptops.
       
            rathboma wrote 4 days ago:
            With s3 sleep support for linux you will get my business :-)
       
            base698 wrote 4 days ago:
            Shut up and take my money!
       
        nightowl_games wrote 4 days ago:
        Honestly this is exactly what I want (quality, repairable, upgradable),
        but I'm not all in yet. I feel like this space is extremely hard to
        break into, and I'm worried about their ability to pull it off. Is
        there massive capital in this corp? Will the price be really high? I'd
        pay a premium for this kind of thing, but if they start crowd funding
        it's gonna seem like a red flag.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          We have the funding we need to bring the product to market (an odd
          downstream benefit of Oculus getting bought by Facebook), but we will
          be taking pre-orders with a deposit prior to shipping to make sure
          our SKU mix and production rates are matched to actual demand.
          
          We won't be asking consumers to pay a premium for longevity, but it's
          nice to hear that you'd be willing to!
       
            samatman wrote 3 days ago:
            Drive by suggestion here.
            
            I think you should offer a first-class Linux experience with this
            laptop. It's a genuinely underserved market, with a lot of overlap
            for people who care about the repairability and upgradability which
            are core to your offering. A market with premium mind share, as
            well.
            
            When I say first class, I mean something specific: you should spend
            some of your engineering budget making a really good driver Linux
            driver for your touchpad, and open source it. That would be huge.
            I'm sure your hardware is up to snuff, but your control over how
            good that feels in Windows is very limited.
            
            There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the Mac for
            essentially one reason, the touchpad.
            
            Windows is dominant in laptops, but with distinct verticals, and I
            struggle to figure out which one this would fit into. Cheap
            semi-disposable laptop for a broke college student? Clearly this
            will cost more than that. Gaming? No way you'll have enough power
            and battery with that form factor. Excel ninjas who get it from
            work? Why would they care about expansion and repairability?
            
            But "I'd rather be using Linux if the experience just sucked a
            little bit less" is underserved. Obviously you can't offer just
            Linux, and maybe licensing shenanigans with Microsoft mean you
            can't even consider this (although I really hope that's not a
            factor anymore).
            
            Anyway. Good luck, it's a cool idea.
       
              fsflover wrote 3 days ago:
              > There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the Mac for
              essentially one reason, the touchpad. [1] > Obviously you can't
              offer just Linux
              
              Yes, you can: [2]
              
   URI        [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24700537
   URI        [2]: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14
   URI        [3]: https://system76.com/laptops
       
                spijdar wrote 3 days ago:
                Purism is a good example, but System76 is not -- they're not
                actually designing or building hardware specifically for Linux,
                but tailoring existing hardware for Linux.
                
                The distinction is they're not trying to develop a new computer
                that only runs or officially supports Linux. Instead they're
                leveraging the sales volumes of these OEM/ODMs which do offer
                Windows in order to keep prices in line with similarly specced
                laptops.
                
                Compare this to Purism, whose offerings are much more expensive
                compared to similarly specced laptops, and because of this
                unlikely to gain mass market appeal. An initiative like
                Framework needs some amount of mass market appeal to make the
                repairability aspect really make sense, else it'll just be
                expensive and resource intensive to manufacture small
                quantities of these systems.
       
              someperson wrote 3 days ago:
              Relevant to this conversation is Bill Harding's project to fund a
              better touchpad driver [1] [2]. It's well worth reading his blog
              posts and seeing his related GitHub project.
              
              Definitely worth understanding his understand motivations, then
              considering collaborating and/or funding him. [1]
              
   URI        [1]: https://bill.harding.blog/2018/04/12/linux-touchpad-like...
   URI        [2]: https://bill.harding.blog/2020/04/26/linux-touchpad-like...
       
              bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
              > you should spend some of your engineering budget making a
              really good driver Linux driver for your touchpad, and open
              source it
              
              It's funny how completely random this suggestion feels (I figured
              you were going to suggest a customized distro based on Ubuntu or
              something), and yet I completely agree. Most everything uses
              libinput these days, and a whole lot of the "feel" is baked into
              the driver at compile time. Getting it right yourself (or even
              just making it more configurable for users) would be an enormous
              step forward.
       
              Finn1sher wrote 3 days ago:
              Totally agree! 
              I think there's a real market for laptops with Linux preinstalled
              - if they offered 2 or 3 distros, (Pop, Manjaro, Fedora for
              example) all with excellent touchpad drivers, I would snap it up.
       
            deadmutex wrote 3 days ago:
            How often will you be pushing out new releases? every 18 months?
            24? etc.
            
            Personally, I am waiting until av1 hardware decoders are more
            common, and BT 5 LE Audio (so they can stream to wireless headsets
            easily) is out as well.
       
            conqrr wrote 4 days ago:
            Will it be cheaper than a mac? If yes, you have my money as I can
            see it being used for the next 20 years (with upgrades).
       
            ihsw wrote 4 days ago:
            Do you have plans for a Ryzen (Zen 3) CPU?
       
        SloopJon wrote 4 days ago:
        One of the repair challenges is access to old parts.  The drain hose on
        our three year-old washer sprung a leak.  When I called a repair man,
        he at first said that Samsung doesn't make that part anymore. 
        Fortunately, he was mistaken, but if that's something that happens for
        a simple hose, imagine trying to replace the "high-end headphone amp"
        expansion card on this laptop five years from now.
        
        Even if I'm not too excited about the proprietary expansion card
        system, which will last as long as the founders' attention spans, if it
        gives access to standard memory and storage, that's an improvement over
        the current trend.
       
          marzell wrote 3 days ago:
          Since the modules are just USB-C adapted, those parts would probably
          be easy to mimic by a third party. Maybe they need to be signed or
          something, hence the marketplace they allude to.
       
            opsy2 wrote 3 days ago:
            Sounds like 3rd party extension is the goal, and according to other
            comments here without necessitating distribution on their
            marketplace either.
       
          99_00 wrote 3 days ago:
          >if that's something that happens for a simple hose
          
          But it didn't happen...
       
            SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
            But it has happened to many of us for other things. The camera on
            my pixel 2 broke but no one sells new parts for the pixel 2 and
            google doesn't support it. All you can get is poor quality second
            hand and stolen parts. For a less popular product, you get nothing.
       
          wongarsu wrote 4 days ago:
          On the other hand in the laptop space I've never had problems with
          part availability. With brands like Dell or Lenovo there are plenty
          of new and used parts available on ebay or your trusted reseller, and
          official service handbooks are easy to download.
          
          The real value-add of the framework laptop is imho the upgrade path:
          you can swap in newer components without replacing nearly everything.
          Usually that's limited to just SSD and RAM, with everything else
          being on one huge mainboard assembly.
       
            rchaud wrote 3 days ago:
            Is that true for the premium laptops? I worked at my school's help
            desk and yes, Dell parts and service manuals were plentiful, but
            usually for bulky Inspiron and Latitude budget laptops. The ones
            with ugly screens, wacky trackpads and replaceable batteries.
            
            It's been a while since I was in that world, but Dell makes some
            mighty nice looking machinery these days, but it doesn't look
            particularly repairable.
       
              wongarsu wrote 3 days ago:
              XPS are still very repairable. Not as nice as Latitude, but for
              example replaceing the battery or upgrading RAM only requires
              unscrewing the bottom (held on by about a dozen torx screws).
       
                rchaud wrote 3 days ago:
                good to know, thanks!
       
            dvdkon wrote 3 days ago:
            It actually is a problem for cheaper laptops whose exact SKUs often
            don't last more than half a year, which is my primary reason for
            buying "business" laptops.
       
          acomjean wrote 4 days ago:
          There used to be a pretty standard adapter card for laptops.
          
          I had an "ethernet modem card" from ibm in that form factor that
          worked well. And a scsi adapter for a zip drive I think.  Its been a
          while...
          
   URI    [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card
       
            blhack wrote 4 days ago:
            It would be really cool if they had just made a laptop that
            accepted PCMCIA cards, and then made a bunch of new PCMCIA cards.
       
              wtallis wrote 4 days ago:
              The more recent choice would have been ExpressCard, but that
              standard was never updated beyond PCIe 2.0 x1 and USB 5Gbit/s.
              But the bigger problem with both ExpressCard and PCMCIA is that
              the cards are long—those form factors date back to an era where
              expansion cards needed a lot more PCB space than they do now.
              ExpressCard 34 is 70/75mm long, compared to a typical client WiFi
              card that's M.2 22x30mm. It's quite impractical to have
              ExpressCard slots on both sides of the machine.
              
              I don't think it would have worked well to try to make a
              hot-swappable externally-facing card form factor derived from
              M.2. Likewise, cutting EDSFF E1.S down to a third of the length
              wouldn't leave any provision for USB or DisplayPort signals.
              USB-C is clearly the best available connector choice among
              current standards.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          It is definitely on us to prove that we'll provide long term support
          for the modules that we're developing, but we're also opening up
          documentation and reference designs for things like our Expansion
          Card system.  If something ever happens to us, other companies and
          the community can continue to use and extend the ecosystem.
          
          We designed the Expansion Cards in a way that it's possible to 3D
          print the housings for them on a  home 3D printer and get PCBs fabbed
          through the normal hobby channels. We hope that folks in the
          community come up with interesting card ideas and bring them out
          themselves in addition to what we develop.
       
            simonebrunozzi wrote 4 days ago:
            > We designed the Expansion Cards in a way that it's possible to 3D
            print the housings for them on a home 3D printer and get PCBs
            fabbed through the normal hobby channels.
            
            That's a bold and brave move. Well done.
       
            foobarian wrote 4 days ago:
            GPIO cards on a modern laptop?    Sign me up!!!
       
              nrp wrote 4 days ago:
              Yes!  Actually, one of the first cards we built internally is a
              little Arduino-compatible one with a SAMD21 microcontroller and
              an external-facing 0.1" pin header for GPIO.
       
                TimTheTinker wrote 3 days ago:
                Woooow. This has a huge market potential among hobbyists.
       
                robocat wrote 3 days ago:
                Will the expansion cards work if plugged into a USB-C port on
                another laptop or desktop? (Assuming I have driver e.g. Linux
                installed).
       
                  kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
                  Yep! Most do not require any custom drivers.
       
                thiagocsf wrote 3 days ago:
                Will your specs include metric or just imperial measurements
                like you just used here?
       
                  TheSpiceIsLife wrote 3 days ago:
                  Fear not, modern inches are metric inches:
                  
                  since the adoption of the international yard during the 1950s
                  and 1960s, it has been based on the metric system and defined
                  as exactly 25.4 mm.
                  
   URI            [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch
       
                mtrovo wrote 3 days ago:
                Wow that's actually a really cool idea
       
                ben_ wrote 4 days ago:
                I love it!
       
          psalminen wrote 4 days ago:
          From the article: "In addition to releasing new upgrades regularly,
          we’re opening up the ecosystem to enable a community of partners to
          build and sell compatible modules through the Framework Marketplace."
          
          Maybe I am misinterpreting it but it sounds like its not a completely
          proprietary system?
       
            f6v wrote 4 days ago:
            A marketplace for an extremely narrow market? Who’s going to
            invest their money to develop hardware for this platform? They
            better do everything themselves in the beginning.
       
              nrp wrote 4 days ago:
              Definitely!  It's on us to make the ecosystem work by building a
              large enough install base for other hardware developers to see a
              reason to come in.  We're going to continue to develop modules
              ourselves until that point, and past that point too!
       
        cupofjoakim wrote 4 days ago:
        This actually looks promising but I wonder if I'm really the target
        group. While I do build custom computers every now and then i also
        cherish the "completeness" of the unibody design that my MBP has. I
        also wonder about the availability of parts...
        
        Also, big up for the 3:2 screen.
       
          hyperpl wrote 4 days ago:
          If the screen is swappable I'd really like to see a lower DPI version
          of 1920x1280. The Thinkpad X1C9 by comparison is 14" @ 1920x1200.
       
          chrismorgan wrote 4 days ago:
          13.5″ 2256×1504, that’s 201ppi, not too shabby, just right for
          1.5× scaling for an effective resolution of 1504×1002⅔.
          
          (I like my Surface Book’s 13.5″ 3000×2000 267ppi display which
          is just the right size for 2× scaling, yielding an effective
          resolution of 1500×1000.)
          
          For reference, the common 13.3″ 1920×1080 display is 166ppi,
          13.3″ 1366×768 is 118ppi, 15.6″ 1920×1080 is 141ppi, and
          15.6″ 1366×768 is 100ppi.
          
          (I’m idly curious why it’s 2256×1504 rather than 2250×1500,
          which would scale to the more convenient effective resolution of
          1500×1000 at 150%, and still 200ppi.)
       
            leephillips wrote 3 days ago:
            Resolution is marginal. It would be a step down from my 2013 Google
            Chrome pixel (240 dpi), which you can get refurbished for about
            $200.
       
          coldpie wrote 4 days ago:
          > Also, big up for the 3:2 screen.
          
          Amen. Any chance I can buy one for my desktop?
       
        vessenes wrote 4 days ago:
        I always think of The Sandbenders from William Gibson’s Idoru when I
        see projects like this.
        
        It might be worth publishing enough of the internal CAD measurements as
        specs so that artists could create their own enclosures / cool addons
        and be sure that they will have parts access.
        
        Anyway, my first thought was ‘will an m1 board fit in there?’ so I
        am looking forward to seeing your release!
       
        holri wrote 4 days ago:
        Will it run with completely free software?
        The limiting factor for lasting is not hardware but required
        proprietary software.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          Our Embedded Controller firmware is fully open source.    We're using a
          proprietary BIOS solution at launch, but that is something we'd like
          to fix in the future.
       
            walterbell wrote 3 days ago:
            Please consider a future option for device owners to install their
            preferred vendor of open-source firmware. If the hardware and
            enclosure platform gains traction, it will hopefully attract open
            system firmware developers. This will require an owner-controlled
            mechanism for signed-firmware key management.
       
          whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
          Are you implying they’re going to stop you from popping Ubuntu on
          it somehow?
          
          [Edit: Thanks for all the replies citing driver blobs and proprietary
          BIOS issues, totally slipped my mind that that was a concern, makes a
          ton more sense now.]
       
            marcodiego wrote 4 days ago:
            He is just asking if it can reach the same level in terms of
            freedom as the laptops listed here:
            
   URI      [1]: https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/laptops
       
              whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
              Ah, that makes sense, I’d totally forgotten about proprietary
              driver blobs/BIOS issues.
       
            gillesjacobs wrote 4 days ago:
            I think he is referring to proprietary firmware/driver blobs that
            come with many CPUs and GPUs. Purism has focused on this issue and
            provide fully FOSS hardware [1].
            
            1.
            
   URI      [1]: https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/
       
            holri wrote 4 days ago:
            Ubuntu runs also on proprietary drivers.
            If the hardware vendor stops to maintain the proprietary driver or
            binary blob the hardware could become obsolete very quickly,
            although it runs fine hardware wise.
            My 11yr old Nokia N900 runs absolutely fine hardware wise. It also
            could run a new linux kernel, but some drivers are proprietary and
            can not be updated. What a waste.
       
            sesuximo wrote 4 days ago:
            Idk bro the cpu microcode from intel is closed source.    How can you
            live with that
       
            ArchieMaclean wrote 4 days ago:
            They may be wondering if the BIOS is FOSS.
            
            E.g. LibreBoot [1] > Non-free BIOS/UEFI firmware often contains
            backdoors, can be slow and have severe bugs. Development and
            support can be abandoned at any time.
            
   URI      [1]: https://libreboot.org/
       
        imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
        This looks so interesting.
        A modular laptop that looks great?
        I’m a Mac guy and this still has me hyped!
       
        ceocoder wrote 4 days ago:
        I’ve added my name to preorder list, happy to pay premium for a
        laptop with high build quality and hardware.   Please don’t screw up
        the keyboard.  Please.    And a fingerprint reader would be welcome
        addition if possible.
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          Keyboard feel was high on our list of priorities.  We engaged one of
          the bigger keyboard suppliers and worked with them on a custom one
          with 1.5mm key travel.
          
          We've built a fingerprint reader into the power button using a
          just-released sensor that has been performing really well in our
          testing so far.  We're seeing False Reject Rates lower than the
          typical fingerprint readers built into laptops while keeping the
          right False Accept Rate.
       
            mtm wrote 3 days ago:
            Any plans to support movable keycaps?  I'd love to actually have
            the physical keys match my Colemak layout
       
              bscphil wrote 3 days ago:
              Agree, this would be awesome.
       
            ndiddy wrote 4 days ago:
            How is the trackpad? Does it support Windows Precision? What
            material is it made out of? How does it compare to an Apple
            trackpad?
       
              nrp wrote 4 days ago:
              It's a Windows Precision Touchpad with a matte glass surface, and
              it feels pretty good!
       
                skavi wrote 4 days ago:
                There doesn’t seem to be much space left for a large battery.
                Do you have any estimates on capacity?
       
                  nrp wrote 4 days ago:
                  We integrated a 55Wh battery, which is pretty typical for
                  13.5-14" notebooks.
       
                    GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
                    Will the internal layout (and thermal characteristics)
                    allow for a larger battery, perhaps at the expense of
                    ports/expansion slots?
       
                  robotnikman wrote 4 days ago:
                  Now I'm curious if extra batteries will be possible to plug
                  into the modules
       
                    kieranl wrote 3 days ago:
                    technically possible as all 4 ports support usb-c PD, but
                    the modules are not big enough to support any reasonable
                    capacity. It is a path to connect something like a slice
                    battery that you could attach to the bottom however!
       
                      GordonS wrote 3 days ago:
                      I've never heard of a "slice battery", but I'm guessing
                      you mean a thin, wedge-shaped battery than would sit
                      underneath the laptop? If so, wouldn't rising heat from
                      the battery be a problem?
       
                ndiddy wrote 4 days ago:
                Thanks for the info!
       
            ceocoder wrote 4 days ago:
            Awesome!
            
            Best of luck and please let me know if you want someone to dogfood
            things as an outsider.    My email is my HN username
       
        kodah wrote 4 days ago:
        As someone who swaps laptops out a lot, I'm down to get one. I'm also
        the same kind of person that buys an X1 Extreme for it's ability to be
        repaired. I'm also curious about price, but I'm assuming that hasn't
        been decided.
        
        That said:
        
        > Founded in San Francisco in 2019
        
        I'd love to see these kind of companies founded outside of this area in
        the future.
       
          bombcar wrote 4 days ago:
          I can understand the strong benefits for startups starting in the Bay
          Area; I would like to see more of them migrate OUT at an appropriate
          time (which would be slightly before FAANG valuation in my mind).
          
          Remote work may solve some of this, but eventually the extended
          runways available at "lower altitudes" (to bend the metaphor) will
          become worthwhile.
       
          whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
          Sorry, why does it matter where they’re founded?
       
        kinghtown wrote 4 days ago:
        I dig the concept, just hope the utilization pans out.
        
        I’m holding out for an arm based Linux laptop which can handle
        Blender without too much fan noise... I would love to get a system76
        laptop but I have doubts about the build quality. But they say that
        they are on tract to manufacture their own laptops this year. How does
        a framework laptop compare to System76? (Let alone a Lenovo or Asus.)
        
        Any chance you guys could make your own distro in the future and brand
        it Lapdance?
       
          baybal2 wrote 4 days ago:
          I have few tricks in my sleeve, but my laptop project stalled with
          quarantine, and appearance of other things to spend money on.
       
        necrotic_comp wrote 4 days ago:
        I wish new laptops would follow the form factor of the old Thinkpads
        instead of Macbooks. I realize that most people like trackpads and
        can't stand the trackpoint, but as someone who has used one for so long
        it would be fantastic if something like this existed.
        
        That being said, this is a great project and it looks like it should be
        successful - having a laptop that is built to last with interchangable
        parts is a great idea and should've been done long ago.
       
          jpetso wrote 3 days ago:
          Yep. With swappable keyboards, I really hope that they consider an
          alternative option with trackpoint, trackpoint mouse buttons and
          full-size arrow keys, perhaps even adjacent PgUp/PgDown keys à la
          ThinkPad.
       
        akhilcacharya wrote 4 days ago:
        Looks promising, but having AMD chips would be killer.
       
          imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
          Seconded!
          The value that AMD has been bringing to the table lately is
          shockingly good.
       
            cromka wrote 4 days ago:
            The fact that they answered a fairly ridiculous question (by
            HN-standards) wether swapping Intel for AMD on the same Motherboard
            is possible, but did npt address reasonable questions about their
            choosing of Intel over AMD, makes me suspicious of them being in
            bed with Intel somehow. It's just like with the AMD versions of
            Lenovo/HP/Dell premium laptops, which are always somehow
            inexplicably crippled (low-res display? why?!) compared to the
            Intel configurations.
            
            When people ask why there's so many rooting against Intel, I don't
            say it's because they stagnated the market. It's specifically
            because long-known practices like these.
            
            But hopefully it's not the case here.
       
        blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
        Great. Another laptop with 1/2 arrow keys. Such a shame.
       
          blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
          I have noticed that most laptops under 14" have those 1/2 keys, but
          once you go to 15" the overall weight increases a lot. The only 14"
          laptop I've used with full arrow keys was the System76 Galago Pro Gen
          3 (galp3).
       
          chrismorgan wrote 4 days ago:
          I would strongly urge, if going with half-height arrow keys, to make
          the side arrows half height as well, rather than full height. This
          helps with both finding the key cluster and using it. Consider
          leaving a small gap to the left of the cluster as well, which in this
          case could conveniently be done by making the keys a bit
          narrower—they look unreasonably wide as it is. Ideally I’d also
          say shift them lower, breaking out of the rectangle and allowing
          taller arrows (even ⅔ or ¾ height would be a good improvement),
          but I can imagine that may fall afoul of manufacturing
          practicalities.
          
          Another nice feature for keyboard design is small gaps between Esc
          and F1, F4 and F5, F8 and F9, and F12 and what’s to its right, as
          desktop keyboards have always done; this helps fingers to blindly
          find the right place. Not very many laptops do this; the main ones
          I’ve noticed doing it in my recent research is ASUS ROG laptops,
          which do seem to put more thought than most into these sorts of
          details. In the pictures shown here, the Escape and especially Delete
          keys look to be unnecessarily wide so that you could reduce their
          widths a bit to provide this space perhaps without shrinking anything
          else.
       
          mettamage wrote 4 days ago:
          Yea, fun fact: I like my Acer Nitro 5. I'm an Apple fan through and
          through, but I also like to run Linux and Windows and haven't done
          that in a while, so I bought an Acer.
          
          I'm using my Acer now more as a dev laptop and my Mac more as a free
          time laptop. What I'm noticing is that I'm enjoying the typing
          experience on the Nitro 5 more, in particular because it has decent
          arrows (and a numpad :) ).
       
          mumblemumble wrote 4 days ago:
          The hjkl keys look full size to me.
          
          ducks
       
            wp381640 wrote 4 days ago:
            a refined man, could have said wasd
       
              mumblemumble wrote 4 days ago:
              just be glad I didn't say dhtn.
       
            imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
            You are more brave than I
       
            blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
            Haha. I have adapted to that too, but why even bother with 1/2 keys
            then. The look like an afterthought.
       
              mumblemumble wrote 3 days ago:
              It's probably difficult to build a laptop with mass market appeal
              if it's only trying to sell to vi people.
       
          ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
          I feel you. IMHO Lenovo still makes the best laptop keybaord layouts
          for coding, typing and gaming. Check out their Legion series.
       
            blainsmith wrote 4 days ago:
            I agree. If I ever get a new machine it will be a Lenovo. The build
            quality is amazing.
       
        adenozine wrote 4 days ago:
        No information about pricing?
       
          nrp wrote 4 days ago:
          Framework founder here.  We'll be announcing pricing shortly before
          we open pre-orders this spring.  We won't be asking consumers to pay
          a premium for longevity, and will be setting pricing to be comparable
          to other popular notebooks using the same silicon.
       
            f6v wrote 4 days ago:
            So in other words it’s going to be 2k for i7, 16 Gb RAM, and 512
            Gb SSD?
       
            ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
            What about shipping and deliveries to regions other than US, like
            EU for example?
            
            How will your volumes look during this silicon shortage?
       
              nrp wrote 4 days ago:
              We're shipping in the US and Canada this summer and opening up
              additional countries in Europe and Asia before the end of the
              year.  In the future, we will launch modules and products
              worldwide closer to the same date, but we're pacing ourselves on
              inventory on the first launch.
              
              We placed our forecasts and risk buys on most chips early in
              anticipation of the silicon crunch that is coming this year.  So
              far, we don't see anything that puts us at risk, short of there
              being massive unexpected upside on consumer demand (a good
              problem to have!).
       
                lovelyviking wrote 4 days ago:
                Finally! This is amazing what you do! I like the philosophy and
                share values! This is the machine I wish to have and this is
                the machine I was dreaming to help making. Is there any way one
                can help/contribute/join?  I have knowledge in sw-dev/ hw /
                design and speak 4 languages. May be there is a way to help
                distribute them at least?
       
                  nrp wrote 3 days ago:
                  Thanks!  We're continuing to grow the team, and have a bunch
                  of roles open currently:
                  
   URI            [1]: https://jobs.lever.co/framework
       
          sturza wrote 4 days ago:
          does not matter
       
            ChuckNorris89 wrote 4 days ago:
            In what way?
       
              sturza wrote 4 days ago:
              it will be expensive because it liiks like the first teuly
              modular laptop. it will get cheaper if it has a big enough
              market. so in a long enough time frame it does not matter
       
                SilverRed wrote 3 days ago:
                Its not the first. We have seen modular designs over and over
                again. Here is a very similar idea from 2016 [1] We have also
                seen multiple failed attempts at modular phones.
                
                Ultimately, the problem with repair is not about making it easy
                enough for grandma to swap out a part. Its about making sure
                repair stores have the ability to source replacement parts.
                
                Its pretty easy to do almost any repair if you have the tools
                and parts but there is no way you are finding a new IC that
                fried on your 5 year old laptop.
                
   URI          [1]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
       
                whoisburbansky wrote 4 days ago:
                Founder in sister thread explicitly says they aren’t planning
                on charging a premium for longevity. Besides, even at Apple
                level prices, a perpetually upgradable system essentially pays
                for itself  eventually.
       
                tluyben2 wrote 4 days ago:
                I couldn't see it from the introduction, but is it differently
                modular than old Lenovo's? Like the X220 which I use as daily
                driver? I guess the flexible ports layout is different but the
                X220 has enough anyway.
       
                imwillofficial wrote 4 days ago:
                It does when payday rolls around ;)
       
       
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