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                                                             on Gopher (inofficial)
   URI Visit Hacker News on the Web
   URI   Firefox 86.0
   DIR   text version
        CTOSian wrote 1 day ago:
        nice news alas still not yet, integration of the master password with
        the Gnome Keyring...
        quantumofalpha wrote 1 day ago:
        Looks like they've dropped layout.css.text-decoration-skip-ink.enabled
        pref in this release, garrhr... Whoever's bright idea this was - i hate
        pabpab wrote 2 days ago:
        firefox 86 gets stuck on cntrl p
        (says preparing preview and nothing happens)
        worked perfectly before, again a case of
         'if it works -----'
        the `print.tab_modal.enabled` preference to `false` fix described below
        BuckRogers wrote 2 days ago:
        There's a lot of reasons why Firefox is still the best browser. I never
        did move to Chrome all these years, and Edge is incredibly impressive
        on Windows.
        I'll detail my opinion on the path forward for Mozilla and Firefox in
        Surprisingly it's been Firefox on iOS that's the biggest pull to keep
        me on FF overall. I think that's the real way forward for them. There's
        just too many Google nags to switch to Chrome on the desktop. This is
        limited on mobile, and putting all resources into mobile features is
        paramount. Then desktop version usage increases due to sync features.
        I'm a Windows and iOS user, and on the desktop, zippiness is feature
        #1. I think they should move to Chromium, as unpopular as that is.
        It'll save on maintenance and an un-Googled Chromium like Edge is a
        very good thing. Leave FF exactly as it is, all features intact with
        Chromium underpinnings, borrow a few features from Vivaldi (horizontal
        tab support), and you easily have the best browser on the market.
        On iOS, it needs support for the URL bar to move to the bottom as on
        Android. It needs uBlock Origin integrated by default, to borrow from
        iOS Edge having adblock. Improving dark mode is key. I just can't get
        it to work properly with DuckDuckGo's homepage. Images are sometimes
        reversed. I've had to turn it off to get pages to display a their
        native black background. I'd like to see it work out of the box with
        Facebook's messenger feature, it tries to redirect to the app, while in
        Safari this can be set to open in desktop mode and just works.
        Otherwise, general stability improvements and performance. It used to
        be very unstable, but its come a long way now. It's my favorite mobile
        Would those changes be enough? I'm not sure, but I do know iOS and
        Android browser support is the only possible way forward other than
        services like their VPN.
        I'm the type of user though that doesn't mind the ads in the URL bar,
        pretty small ask on Mozilla's part. I also leave telemetry enabled
        because I want my usage scenario to be in Mozilla's data. As you can
        guess, I'm not the typical user that thinks Blink vs Gecko is somehow a
        mighty crusade to save the web. Even if it were where the real battle
        is, Mozilla is not the entity that's properly armed to take up that
        fight. Apple or Microsoft would be.
        I have other ideas on how to move Mozilla forward and make it a very
        big player in the tech space. The biggest problem confronting Mozilla
        today is probably Mozilla. If I had to guess. Trying to convey these
        ideas to leadership and get a path forward set in the bureaucracy is
        probably pretty tough.
        ritonlajoie wrote 3 days ago:
        I'm sorry Firefox, after using you for 3 years, I tried chrome again
        and for my usage, Chrome seems more reactive to my browsing, faster. I
        really tried but whenever I play some media, I have issues with my
        nvidia driver (using windows 10) or stuff like that. 
        I will try again in the future for sure if you are still aroung !
        partingshots wrote 3 days ago:
        Firefox has hundreds of developers. I don’t understand  why
        performance isn’t on par with Chrome. I try my best to use Firefox to
        bring support, but sometimes I just have to switch back when things get
        too laggy.
        I’m sorry, but I only have 8 hours a day, and I’m not going to let
        my productivity flow get ruined.
          Tagbert wrote 2 days ago:
          Are you using Webrender with Firefox? It’s off by default but once
          I turned it on, it sped up FF significantly. No beta issues so far.
          sleepless wrote 3 days ago:
          Do you have numbers for this claim?
          Looking at [1] your statement does not match the test results.
          In which cases are things getting laggy for you?
   URI    [1]: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16078/the-2020-browser-battle...
          dyingkneepad wrote 3 days ago:
          What are you using that makes the performance difference be even
          noticeable? With the exception of cases where Firefox is absolutely
          broken, for me it's good enough. Or when I had crappy extensions,
          have you tried disabling extensions? I only have uBlock Origin and
          Firefox Containers these days.
          It does sadden me that some sites are starting to refuse to work with
          Firefox these days... But I won't give up.
            shaicoleman wrote 2 days ago:
            For me, Google Maps/Apple Maps (on DuckDuckGo) are painfully laggy
            on Firefox/Linux, even after force enabling all the GPU
            acceleration options. OpenStreetMap works fine, though.
            That said, Google has a long history of making their products
            glitchy on Firefox, so not sure it's all Firefox's fault.
   URI      [1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-h...
        dbg31415 wrote 3 days ago:
        Firefox is my browser of choice, but it handles streaming video / video
        calls very poorly on MacOS. My MBP heats up and my battery goes into
        free fall.
        When I watch Twitch or take a Zoom call in Safari the fans may come on,
        but it never gets anywhere near as hot. Honestly think it's dangerous
        to the battery life.
        According to Apple's Energy Usage stat, Firefox uses "57" where Safari
        uses "1.7" for the same Zoom call.
        Given how much is done on streaming video calls now, love it if Firefox
        made this a priority.
        jdlyga wrote 3 days ago:
        I always used Firefox because it was far ahead of other browsers in
        terms of UI, such as good tabbed browsing.  But now it's gotten rather
        clunky compared to Chrome.  It's been playing catch up for years.  For
        example, Firefox really needs to implement Tab Groups like Chrome. 
        It's such a great feature, and it's a shame that Firefox doesn't have a
        version of it.
          buzzy_hacker wrote 3 days ago:
          I like tree style tabs
   URI    [1]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...
          mippenhappen wrote 3 days ago:
          >Tab Groups like Chrome
          I knew it had added that feature but I didn't actually try it until
          just now. And oh my god you can FOLD the group... tab management just
          got a lot better for me!
        helij wrote 3 days ago:
        My browser history is NCSA Mosaic->Netscape->Firefox. Even when Firefox
        had its downs I stuck with it. Not sure why. It just felt right. It was
        always perfect for me.
        The only thing I miss are subtitles in Picture-in-Picture mode.
          BuckRogers wrote 2 days ago:
          Yup. I will say though, as someone that never left FF, the new Edge
          is really good on Windows. I'm impressed. Edge is missing some
          features that make browsing for me, a far more enjoyable experience
          though. For Firefox, "It just feels right" is the best way to put it.
          dotancohen wrote 2 days ago:
          Skipped over Phoenix?
          miroz wrote 3 days ago:
          This. There maybe are some downsides to Firefox but it still feels
          better than chrome. I'm staying with it
          cpeterso wrote 3 days ago:
          Here's the Firefox bug for Picture-in-Picture subtitles.
          Unfortunately there has not much progress.
   URI    [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1551058
        wpdev_63 wrote 3 days ago:
        If anyone from the firefox mobile team is here: please fix the bug
        where you can't scroll through the tabs when they overflow. Also
        opening whatsapp links for some reason doesn't open whatsapp but chrome
        does. This bug and several other nuance things made me go back to
        chrome mobile which is unfortunate. Especially with the fact that
        chrome mobile doesn't support plugins.
        I am a happy firefox user and the print preview is one of the very few
        things that made me open chrome backup.
          onelovetwo wrote 3 days ago:
          While we'll reporting things here, please remove the `delete` to go
          back, it has fucked me over so many times in text fields. No other
          browser does it.
            perryizgr8 wrote 1 day ago:
            AFAIK, delete has never worked as a substitute for going back in
            the history of web browsers.
            skymt wrote 3 days ago:
            Backspace will no longer be used for navigation by default in
            Firefox 87: [1] That key binding was added for interface
            compatibility with Internet Explorer, which is less important these
            days. If you'd like to disable it now, go to about:config and set
            browser.backspace_action = 2.
   URI      [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1041377
              ckcheng wrote 3 days ago:
              On Linux, browser.backspace_action = 2 was default since
              2006-12-07: [1] Apparently, you can use value 1 to use backspace
              to scroll a page if you like!
   URI        [1]: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.backspace_action
        alecmg wrote 3 days ago:
        Found a random improvement:
        Kraken 1.1 benchmark runs faster now.
        Improved from roughly 760 to 700ms on my 5800X.
        Still ways to go to reach Chrome at 560ms
          extra88 wrote 2 days ago:
          Running that benchmark on my Mac (Catalina), I see a comparable
          difference between Firefox and Chrome but Safari (14.0.3) is ~10%
          faster than Chrome. This wasn't with any care taken to create a
          controlled environment and my Firefox had plenty of tabs open.
        tweetle_beetle wrote 3 days ago:
        > For Firefox users in Canada, credit card management and auto-fill are
        now enabled.
        Apparently this has been available to users in the US since v81, and
        will be available to other locales in the future. Out of curiosity, how
        are these features gated geographically?
        pentagrama wrote 3 days ago:
        Not totally related, but someone know if exist an RSS feed to follow
        the stable Firefox releases? Can't find it on this page.
        This Firefox changelogs are awesome to know big improvements and new
        features on a surface level.
        For Chrome I didn't find a proper way to follow the releases even if it
        has some RSS feeds, I follow the RSS feed of Chrome Releases blog [1]
        with a tag filter [2] but can't exclude the several point releases, and
        also the changelogs are not very informative [3]. And the Chrome blog
        [4] I get some feature announcements but is a mix bag. [1] [2] [3] [1]
        /2021/01/stable-channel... [4]
   URI  [1]: https://chromereleases.googleblog.com
   URI  [2]: http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default/-...
   URI  [3]: https://chromereleases.googleblog.com/2021/01/stable-channel-u...
   URI  [4]: https://blog.google/products/chrome/
          folknor wrote 2 days ago:
           [1] [2] [3] And here's my lua script that uses notify-send to notify
          me of new releases: [4] I modified it slightly before posting it
          here, but it's mostly useless unless you're me :-D Because when I
          write shell scripts (which I always do in lua), I always use my fork
          of luash (from my github), and I don't imagine anyone else has it.
          It's easy enough to rewrite the script to not require it, though.
          Also, the other obscure dependency it uses is lua2xml, which is
          notoriously unreliable, but I still use it in all my shell scripts
          that interact with XML.
   URI    [1]: https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-unified/tags
   URI    [2]: https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-unified/atom-tags
   URI    [3]: https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-unified/rss-tags
   URI    [4]: https://gist.github.com/folknor/32f703b270c6ad72bc12d98feb2f...
            folknor wrote 1 day ago:
            I've updated the gist so it now can be used without my luash fork,
            and can be used with ((luash+curl) || luasec || lua-curl). Just for
            fun :-)
            folknor wrote 2 days ago:
            I forgot to mention: before running the script (as if anyone ever
            would), create a file called "notified" in the same folder with the
            content "85.0.0" without the quotes, or whatever recent firefox
            release version you want to build from. The script also needs to be
            able to write to this file.
          nitrohorse wrote 3 days ago:
          Interested myself, currently using [1] ( [2] ).
   URI    [1]: https://groups.google.com/forum/feed/mozilla.announce/msgs/r...
   URI    [2]: https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.announce
            folknor wrote 2 days ago:
            Take a look at my reply to the OP
            pentagrama wrote 3 days ago:
            Thank you! That's perfect! And a bit ironic that the RSS feed is on
            a Google product aka the company that kill Google Reader.
        GolDDranks wrote 3 days ago:
        One more release to avif!
          gardaani wrote 3 days ago:
          Would it make sense to skip AVIF and add JPEG XL instead or wait for
          WebP2? JPEG XL and WebP2 have better image features, such as
          progressive loading.
            zamadatix wrote 2 days ago:
            The machinery needed to add AVIF is small since
            browsers/sites/devices are already shipping AV1 more and more and
            will continue to do so regardless. Also AVIF does better at
            extremely low file sizes.
            JPEG XL and/or WebP2 are looking to be great but there is not
            reason to wait for perfect to come along before adding another
            format to the browsers - it's not like they are running out of room
            for more image decoders :).
        eznzt wrote 3 days ago:
        This new release also includes new ads, seems they forgot to put that
        in the release notes:
   URI  [1]: https://twitter.com/CohanRobinson/status/1364172683118866433
          lucideer wrote 3 days ago:
          Don't think the ads are in this release. They're being rolled out to
          a cohort of users, independent of version.
          bhandziuk wrote 3 days ago:
          These are nearly unnoticeable because they seem to disappear as soon
          as you start typing.
          mminer237 wrote 3 days ago:
          While it's scummy, I had those on 85, so it's not this release.
          leokennis wrote 3 days ago:
          Oh wow.
          Say what you want about Safari being outdated etc. but at least
          they’re not going to pull shit like this.
          Jamieee wrote 3 days ago:
          From the tweet's Author it's disabled via:
          there is also:
            cpeterso wrote 3 days ago:
            Those preferences are also available in the Firefox UI so they are
            accessible to non-power users:
            1. Click the "Customize your New Tab page" gear icon on the New Tab
            2. Uncheck the "Sponsored Top Sites" and "Sponsored Stories"
            SamuelAdams wrote 3 days ago:
            Yes, this works. For now. The bigger problem is that this will
            probably go away at some point and the "sponsored" items will have
            no way (or a very difficult way) of being removed.
            This has happened before with the browser toolbar having an
            about:config option to disable enlarging behavior, now you have to
            do some hacky CSS thing.
   URI      [1]: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1274579
              JadeNB wrote 2 days ago:
              Now you don't just have to anticipate having options removed;
              that's the explicit development plan.  (Quote is about a
              different preference, but I think it makes the style of
              development clear.)
              > We intend to add a keyboard shortcut for this[1]. In the
              meantime you can revert to the old printing interface by setting
              the `print.tab_modal.enabled` preference to `false` via the page
              `about:config`. In a few releases time, after we've finished
              integrating user feedback and polishing rough edges, we intend to
              remove that preference though.
   URI        [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26275683
                woodrowbarlow wrote 2 days ago:
                they plan to remove a hidden about:config preference for the
                system print dialog and replace it with a _dedicated keyboard
                shortcut_. if you think that's evidence that they want to take
                away your control, i beg to differ.
                  JadeNB wrote 2 days ago:
                  No, to be honest, I misread and thought that the final
                  sentence meant that they were taking all configurability,
                  both preference and keyboard shortcut, away.
            eznzt wrote 3 days ago:
            I use Firefox ESR just so I don't have to do this every couple
        matsemann wrote 3 days ago:
        Wow, Ctrl+P has now started to open the proper print-interface with a
        preview! I've helped loads of people over the years complaining about
        printing in Fx vs Chrome. It used to be so in Fx that selecting Print
        from the menu opened an interface for printing (ala Chrome), but
        pressing Ctrl+P just opened standard OS print dialog. So power users
        never saw the nice print preview.
          drewzero1 wrote 3 days ago:
          I noticed that! I've been using the print preview from the File menu
          (a bit cumbersome with menus hidden and without a dedicated shortcut)
          and noticed that I didn't have the option this week.
          I seem to remember the controls for page fit being a little better
          with the old print preview, but my real complaint is with websites
          that don't scale well to print rather than Firefox's method of
          printing them.
          purerandomness wrote 3 days ago:
          Oh my god! I've never seen the proper print interface and always
          assumed Mozilla simply didn't care about printing.
          driverdan wrote 3 days ago:
          This doesn't appear to be new in 86. I'm on 85 and it has preview
          when I hit Cmd+P.
          callmeal wrote 3 days ago:
          For those of us that prefer the OS print dialog, how can we stop this
            benhurmarcel wrote 2 days ago:
            Reminds me of that:
   URI      [1]: https://xkcd.com/1172/
            jwatt wrote 3 days ago:
            We intend to add a keyboard shortcut for this[1]. In the meantime
            you can revert to the old printing interface by setting the
            `print.tab_modal.enabled` preference to `false` via the page
            `about:config`. In a few releases time, after we've finished
            integrating user feedback and polishing rough edges, we intend to
            remove that preference though.
   URI      [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1667950
              pabpab wrote 2 days ago:
              thanks, this helped , things went back to 'working'
              JadeNB wrote 2 days ago:
              Why is Firefox, with its devotion to hearing the user's voice,
              always in such a hurry to remove toggles that express user
                jwatt wrote 2 days ago:
                In the general case where that's true I expect it mostly comes
                down to trying to balance features against available resources
                and the amount/complexity of the code that needs to be
                written/maintained. As noted elsewhere in this thread, there
                were a bunch of layoffs at Mozilla the last year, but even
                without that it's sometimes necessary to make tough, pragmatic
                In the case of the new print preview/workflow, however, I
                expect it will provide virtually everyone with a better
                workflow once we've finished polishing any rough edges. The
                feedback on places like Reddit indicates that it's already a
                very clear net win for most users, and I think we can address
                most of the complaints on support.mozilla.org etc. The eventual
                removal of the `print.tab_modal.enabled` preference and the old
                code will simply be because having two print preview
                implementations adds code complexity and is a maintenance
                  JadeNB wrote 2 days ago:
                  Thank you for the reply, which you must get tired of giving
                  but which you nonetheless gave politely.
                  I understand that the needs of any one user, such as me, with
                  a particular idiosyncratic set of needs and preferences are
                  at odds with those of the body of users as a whole, who need
                  an appropriate balance between customiseability and
                  useability, together with, of course, deliverability—it's
                  no good having a product custom-tailored to fit every
                  possible combination of needs if the developers collapse
                  under the maintenance weight.
                  I didn't really mean what I said as anything other than a cri
                  de cœur:  it sometimes seems that Firefox rode to its
                  current position on the wave of the love and passion of power
                  users, a group of which I am on the periphery, but now cares
                  more about its numerically larger but less devoted casual
                  user base.  This is probably the right decision, but it's
                  still frustrating as one of those long-time users (from back
                  in the Phoenix days!).
                    jwatt wrote 2 days ago:
                    No problem, and as a Mozilla user/contributor since the
                    early Mozilla Suite days I sympathize with your cri de
                    cœur. Power users had and will always have an outsized
                    influence on Mozilla's market share and thus relevance and
                    ability to fulfill its mission. At the same time
                    performance, polish and usability need to keep up with the
                    competition to keep the less technical majority. It's a
                    tough balancing act when resource constrained.
              nogridbag wrote 3 days ago:
              We have an application using a web based PDF viewer (PDFTron) and
              printing PDFs has always been a pain point. That library supports
              "embedded printing" which only works on Chrome ( [1] ). So for
              now we're advising our customers to use Chrome for our
              application. Do you know if this is something being improved
              upon? Sorry this is a bit OT!
   URI        [1]: https://www.pdftron.com/documentation/web/guides/print/o...
                jwatt wrote 3 days ago:
                Offhand I'm not sure what functionality Firefox is missing that
                has caused them to only support Chrome. I'd be interested in
                taking a look though if you have their paid support and can
                persuade them to either file a bug[1] (or to give you
                sufficient technical information so that you can file a bug).
   URI          [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Cor...
                  nogridbag wrote 2 days ago:
                  Thanks! I'll get in contact with their support. Too late to
                  edit my earlier post. The link to their embedded printing is:
   URI            [1]: https://www.pdftron.com/documentation/web/guides/pri...
            lucideer wrote 3 days ago:
            There's a link to the OS print dialog in the new print preview view
            (not perfect, but better than nothing if you prefer it)
              Wowfunhappy wrote 3 days ago:
              :( So there's no way to just default to that? In chrome there's a
              `defaults write` command that does it.
              I really dislike this philosophy of replacing the system
              functionality. Particularly on Mac where the system functionality
              is quite good. (On Windows and Linux, I admittedly don't care as
              much, because nothing is ever consistent anyway...)
            berelig wrote 3 days ago:
            There is an option to print using the system dialog on the right
            panel after you press COMMAND + P
          bradstewart wrote 3 days ago:
          Wow. I switched to Firefox around the same time I switched a Mac for
          work, and just assumed the lack of print preview was a weird macOS
          This makes me happy.
            jwatt wrote 3 days ago:
            Actually, you were correct. Firefox on Windows and Linux has
            provided a print preview "since forever", but this is the first
            time Firefox has had print preview functionality on macOS (outside
            of using the system print dialog to generate and open a PDF in the
            Preview app).
              bradstewart wrote 3 days ago:
              Right. I just assumed Chrome and Safari also lacked print preview
              on macOS, didn't even think to check.
            lucideer wrote 3 days ago:
            fwiw Firefox always had a print preview; it was just behind a
            different shortcut rather than integrated into the default flow.
              frosted-flakes wrote 3 days ago:
              The old Print Preview actually allowed you to inspect the page
              with the Developer Tools. Which was great for debugging
              print-specific CSS. I don't think that's possible with the new
              Print Preview, but the new one is better in every other way.
                folknor wrote 2 days ago:
                Should be possible using the Browser Toolbox to inspect the
                entire interface? I just checked and the HTML is definitely in
                the inspector at least, but I'm not sure what your requirements
                  lights0123 wrote 2 days ago:
                  What do you mean by "Browser Toolbox"? Firefox doesn't have
                  Chrome's @media (print) emulation.
                    folknor wrote 1 day ago:
                     [1] screenshot of browser toolbox with the print preview
                    DOM visible + site with @media print background color
                    change. Note that you need to expand "More settings" in the
                    print preview and enable "Print backgrounds" for that
                    specific test to work.
   URI              [1]: https://imgur.com/a/S6XryYW
                    folknor wrote 1 day ago:
                     [1] The Browser Toolbox is the normal DOM inspector, just
                    extended to the whole user interface. If you open the print
                    preview, then open the Browser Toolbox, you can inspect the
                    preview and edit styles just like any other document.
                    Also, @media print {} works fine, I just tested it. But I'm
                    not sure how that relates to the original question.
   URI              [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Bro...
              bradstewart wrote 3 days ago:
              I would have literally never discovered that without this post. I
              honestly forgot there was a File->Print button until I read this.
              Ctrl/cmd+P is jus burned into my muscle memory.
          betamaxthetape wrote 3 days ago:
          As someone who always used the Ctrl-P keyboard shortcut, I never even
          knew that a print-with-preview interface existed in Firefox.
            iso1631 wrote 3 days ago:
            I'm on Firefox 84, pressing file/print or ctrl-p brings up a
            preview window on the left, printer selection on the right.
              jwatt wrote 3 days ago:
              The new print interface has been progressively released to a
              subset of users over multiple releases. It's only gone to 100% of
              users as of Firefox 86.
                pabpab wrote 2 days ago:
                it does not work here
                the `print.tab_modal.enabled` preference to `false´ fix
                described below helped
                runarberg wrote 3 days ago:
                I guess I was in the early rollout. I was in the middle of
                designing a print layout about a month or two ago when firefox
                got updated. After a restart I suddenly was missing the print
                preview option in the menu to test my design. I was really glad
                to see that I could from now on just press Ctrl + P and get a
                much better experience.
            dtx1 wrote 3 days ago:
            It never even occured to me to use the menu version. What an
              agumonkey wrote 3 days ago:
              you guys made me read the menu shortcuts .. didn't know reader
              mode and all-tabs had them (in order CTRL-ALT-R and
                _Microft wrote 3 days ago:
                May I blow your mind? ;)
                Ctrl-1 to Ctrl-8 accesses the first eight tabs directly, Ctrl-9
                jumps to the last tab. Enjoy!
                  dotancohen wrote 2 days ago:
                  Try Tridactyl. You can access any tab directly with `b`.
                  agumonkey wrote 3 days ago:
                  I think you meant Alt-N and yeah I did know (don't even know
                  how but I use it every day since forever..)
                    Raphael_Amiard wrote 3 days ago:
                    It'll be alt-n on mac's I think!
                  jdfellow wrote 3 days ago:
                  I didn't know about the Ctrl-9. Thanks.
        0-_-0 wrote 3 days ago:
        I wonder if Total Cookie Protection is unnecessary if I have First
        Party Isolation enabled already
          ihuman wrote 3 days ago:
          It looks like TCP includes FPI, but isolates more data sources, like
          the storage APIs and Workers.
   URI    [1]: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2021/02/introducing-state-partitio...
        blfr wrote 3 days ago:
        > Firefox now supports simultaneously watching multiple videos in
        Is Adderall the new Aspirin? Or is there some WFH use here that I'm
          joveian wrote 2 days ago:
          I don't get it either, personally, but I remember reading around high
          school (90s) a book called "Boost your Brainpower" or something like
          that.  They mostly recommended lots of visualization (they said the
          trick is to say out loud what you are seeing to improve) but also had
          a suggestion to watch multiple televisions at the same time,
          suggesting it would be helpful in some way or another that I have
          long since forgotten.  I never tried any of those, but hopefully in a
          decade we'll be reading about "the browser feature that boosts your
          brainpower" and not "the browser feature that made the amphetamine
          crisis even worse".
          thebiss wrote 3 days ago:
          I have two, as yet unsolved, work from home use cases:
          - I often would like to watch one team member update Trello or Mural,
          at the same time as another updates Github, while I update a
          contract. I'd move those streams to my 4k monitor, to keep them
          readable, while I work on my primary.
          - If I'm running a demo to a client, I'd like to have one stream
          sharing the demo platform, while another shares video of my haggard
          face, and a third shows my presentation. I don't want to share my
          whole desktop, to avoid sharing slack or SMS notifications.
          OBS can probably do #2.  Nothing does #1.
          arkitaip wrote 3 days ago:
          Following a group of streamers at the same time is ideal for this.
          Currently you need to use 3rd party services.
          driverdan wrote 3 days ago:
          I watched NASA's stream of Perseverance landing on Mars. It would
          have been cool to watch a few different landings streams at once
          since one had good narration and another had better footage.
          iso1631 wrote 3 days ago:
          I have a fitlet running a pygtk 4screen vlc showing me 3 news
          networks and a music stream on my 3rd monitor. I can click each one
          to mute/unmute, mousewheel up/down to change the relative volume, and
          the entire thing is compeltely separate from my
          I can have 4 different sources on at the same time (music in the
          background - quiet, one of the news channels a bit louder if I'm
          waiting for something to happen, a corporate all-hands zoom call I'm
          half listening to on the main computer, and maybe a short video or
          meme, it's usually 2 or 3 though.
          I don't use pip much as the one site I'd use it on (twitter) works
          hard to stop the video playing as you scroll down anyway.
          swiley wrote 3 days ago:
          When I watched YouTube regularly I would often have multiple videos
          going. Some people talk slowly and YouTube encourages filler in order
          to hit the 10 minute mark. When most of the videos are like this you
          can definitely have a couple monologues, some music, and something to
          read just fine.
            blfr wrote 3 days ago:
            You can speed up videos on Youtube. Both natively and with
            yuotube-dl then play locally with mpv or your (lesser) favourite
              swiley wrote 3 days ago:
              This was less clicks and faster.
                wongarsu wrote 3 days ago:
                Clicking on the gear in the youtube player allows you to set
                playback speed. Most videos are very watchable on 1.25x or 1.5x
                speed, on videos that are basically just filler with some
                information in between I even go to 2x
          _ph_ wrote 3 days ago:
          While I usually limit myself to one video playing on the computer,
          when following live events it can happen that you want to have two
          streams running. E.g. the multiple channels streaming the Starship
          test flights or watch one video while waiting for another stream to
          come online.
            dotancohen wrote 2 days ago:
            I was exactly thinking about the Starship test flights for this. I
            think that's the only time I've ever had more than a single video
            playing at once.
          coldpie wrote 3 days ago:
          For a serious answer, here's some links: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Looks to
          me like it is a standard that web devs requested (e.g. so you can
          scroll down YouTube or whatever and the video will keep playing in
          the corner), which Firefox chose to also make an end-user UI for.
   URI    [1]: https://w3c.github.io/picture-in-picture/
   URI    [2]: https://github.com/w3c/picture-in-picture/blob/master/explai...
   URI    [3]: https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/10/watch-vide...
   URI    [4]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1463402
   URI    [5]: https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5729206566649856
            sambe wrote 3 days ago:
            I think the parent is primarily referring to the multiple aspect of
            it (PiP was already supported).
          everdrive wrote 3 days ago:
          I never understood this feature either. I can already make multiple
          browser windows if I want. Definitely not interested in PIP.
            SubiculumCode wrote 3 days ago:
            PIP also has pin-on-top feature, I believe letting you place the
            video in a corner over an expanded, in-focus application.
            astura wrote 3 days ago:
            Following along with a tutorial would be a big use case.
            acdha wrote 3 days ago:
            I shared the initial reaction the first time I heard about it but
            completely changed my mind after using it. The big win is for
            poorly designed sites like YouTube which use non-standard controls
            and waste a significant majority of the space. I have hot  keys to
            resize windows to screen quarters or halves but for anything less
            than full screen on my laptop a YouTube video will have less than
            half of the window devoted to the actual content and the browser
            chrome will reduce that even further.
            If there’s something I’m watching but not giving my full
            attention to - say an event hasn’t started yet or someone will be
            landing a rover on Mars in an hour - this means that I can either
            have a big chunk of my screen wasted or I can use PiP and have just
            the thing I care about using a quarter of the space but showing
            considerably more of the actual content.
            Plus, it uses well-tested standard controls so I don’t have to
            play games figuring out whose  kiddies don’t think about keyboard
            shortcuts or test their event handlers.
            _ph_ wrote 3 days ago:
            Most web pages only support two video sizes:
            1. unusably small
            2. full screen. Which often means unusably large (27" screen),
            especially for less-than-HD videos
            At least youtube added at some time the cinema mode which allowed
            the video to occupy the whole window width, that is what I use most
            of the time. Still, PIP also has the advantage of removing the
            window decorations, so saving space. Also, they are floating on top
            of all other windows, which helps, but also occasionally can be
            TeMPOraL wrote 3 days ago:
            Browser windows have decorations that take space. I don't use PIP
            often, but it comes in handy when I have limited screen real
            estate, like watching Netflix on my sidearm in tablet mode, while
            simultaneously doing something on the web.
              amelius wrote 3 days ago:
              This is something better solved at the window manager level. E.g.
              what if I want to have a PIP in my Xterm?
                wongarsu wrote 3 days ago:
                Sure, if you have a window manager that solves the problem
                that's great. The rest of the world can use Firefox's inferior
                integration while they wait for their window manager to get
                that feature.
                ubercow13 wrote 3 days ago:
                How does a window manager get rid of Firefox's browser chrome?
                  vifon wrote 3 days ago:
                  For me it makes the fullscreen videos cover only the Firefox
                  window, so they effectively can serve as PIP windows. To be
                  honest, I have no idea how to enable it outside of XMonad, it
                  just worked like this on XMonad many years ago when I
                  switched to it and I actually liked this behavior so here we
                    ubercow13 wrote 3 days ago:
                    Right but xmonad is very idiosyncratic in that behaviour. I
                    don't know of any other window manager that behaves like
                    that, and while it seems useful in Firefox, it doesn't make
                    much sense to ignore fullscreen requests from an
                    application like mpv which has no chrome anyway, or say a
                    video game which expects to be fullscreen and doesn't know
                    how to dynamically scale its UI down when the window isn't
                    the size it expects.
                    PiP seems to be a cleaner solution.
                  TeMPOraL wrote 3 days ago:
                  Answer: it doesn't.
                  The problem is browsers have two layers of decoration: the WM
                  layer (which tiling window managers tend to remove), and the
                  internal layer - the tab bar, address bar, option buttons,
                  borders, etc.
                  As far as I know, there isn't a way to remove all that
                  without going full screen.
                    Macha wrote 3 days ago:
                    In the very first version of firefox with full screen mode
                    it ended up doing just that, rendering full screen inside a
                    normal window area in my tiling WM. It was likely a
                    bug/unimplemented feature at that stage, but to be honest
                    it would have been nice to have as an option prior to pip.
            matsemann wrote 3 days ago:
            I like that I can scale the video as I want. Like on a news-site
            the only options are often a small inline viewer or full screen. So
            I use PIP often for that even though I'm staying on the page.
            And it's just more convenient than trying to maximize the space of
            another browser window and making it stay put above other stuff. No
            extra chrome, no wasted inline space on the page. I can just take a
            Blender tutorial for instance and move directly above my Blender
            window and it obscures as little as possible.
          astura wrote 3 days ago:
          Sports immediately comes to mind - Some people I know who are really
          big into sports like watching/keeping track of multiple games at
            wongarsu wrote 3 days ago:
            Not only multiple games, but also multiple viewpoints of the same
            game. Twitch added support for that use case for esports (I think
            as part of their deal with Overwatch League).
            csin wrote 3 days ago:
            This is a game changer for sports bettors.
            Me personally, will probably stick to one video playing in the
            background. It's more for ambient noise. On days when there are 4
            nba games going on simutaneously, I'm far too busy fiddling with my
            spreadsheet/nba feed to be actually watching the game.
        megous wrote 3 days ago:
        I wonder if the web engine development pretty much stopped, or
        developer notes are just less detailed over the last year or so. Those
        are a shadow of the former self, certainly.
          dblohm7 wrote 2 days ago:
          Most of the Gecko group was left intact.
          clairity wrote 3 days ago:
          it’s particularly aggravating that form fields have been largely
          stagnant over the past 20 years. so much repetitive development
          happens around forms (validations or date/time pickers, for instance)
          and yet very little effort goes into improving them.
            samus wrote 1 day ago:
            Every effort to change or improve them will wreck most forms on the
            internet. Most websites heavily style them and augment them with
            scripts, which will almost certainly conflict with whatever is
            change in the browsers. This ship has sailed decades ago.
            rablackburn wrote 2 days ago:
            I’ve noticed this too. I’ve found myself iterating on a nice
            extended form control library where I try to extend the native
            inputs and forms in the most minimal, yet complete, way I can.
            There are actually a lot of nice improvements being discussed in
            the CSS level 4 specs, but some of the issues are last tagged as
            updated in 2012...
            But basically we just need a consistent value interface  (two-way
            data binding), and a more finely-grained validation/state lifecycle
            where we can plug in our own custom validation functions.
            Colleagues and I always joke that every web developer gets the idea
            to write a form library at some point, and suffering through trying
            to implement it is the only way to dissuade them of the idea. Now
            the joke is on me as I’ve come full circle back to writing one.
            I’ve spent so much time on it now I’ve been considering
            reaching out to help contribute to the spec. But I have no idea how
            receptive the working group is. This may just become my eternal
            project, there’s always more edge cases to find.
            digianarchist wrote 2 days ago:
            Microsoft are actually doing good in this space.
   URI      [1]: https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2019/10/15/form-contro...
          taranissnark wrote 3 days ago:
          They did let go of a third of their staff about a year ago.
            megous wrote 3 days ago:
            I know, all I wonder is whether engine development slowed down or
            changelog person was let go, or whatever.
          jakub_g wrote 3 days ago:
          Under "developer" section there's a link with dev focused changelog
          [1] Note also that release schedule is now 4 weeks instead of 6
          weeks. Hence each release might feel "smaller".
   URI    [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Rel...
            megous wrote 3 days ago:
            I was writing about those dev changelogs and not just this
        fctorial wrote 3 days ago:
        Firefox is the only option for mobile webdev since it's the only mobile
        browser with devtools. However I won't use it as my main browser
        because of insanely frequent (and pointless) major ui changes. It
        messes with your muscle memory. This isn't beta software, is it?
          throwaway077445 wrote 3 days ago:
          I'm not a webdev, but I think you can use the Desktop Chrome webviews
          to debug remotely. [1] This should be possible on Firefox too:
   URI    [1]: https://developers.google.com/web/tools/chrome-devtools/remo...
   URI    [2]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Remote_Debugg...
          ihuman wrote 3 days ago:
          Safari on iOS kind of has devtools, but they're not available on the
          go, since you still need a desktop computer to access them. Enable
          the "web inspector" setting in iOS safari and the "show develop menu"
          in macOS (both in the advanced settings section). When you plug in
          the iOS device directly into the Mac, it'll show up in the Mac's
          Safari's develop menu. Unfortunately, this is completely useless if
          you don't have access to a mac or are away from your computer.
          heywherelogingo wrote 3 days ago:
          Doesn't chrome do the same?  I used it last night, opened the history
          and that was considerably different.
          FeepingCreature wrote 3 days ago:
          Yeah I just have a pinned beta apk from a while back that I will
          never, ever update.
          Same with Firefox on Desktop, for that matter.
            SecurityLagoon wrote 3 days ago:
            Please update your browser - sitting on old versions is just asking
            for trouble. If you really want to maintain a consistent interface
            then use the ESR releases which should basically just be security
              FeepingCreature wrote 3 days ago:
              Unfortunately, Firefox ESR already doesn't have TabMixPlus
              I'm on Waterfox Classic on desktop, but that's probably not gonna
              last forever either. And when that eventually drops support, I'll
              just stay on the last version until some browser vendor brings
              multi row tabs back. On mobile, I visit maybe five websites, and
              the three most common ones don't have ads, so I'm happy with my
              pinned old Firefox Beta version. And no matter what happens, I'm
              not upgrading to current Firefox on Android - well, unless the
              thing that happens is they take that abomination of a UI back
              behind the shed and put it out of its misery...
              The way I look at it, it's unfortunate that the one single
              browser actually worth using sadly no longer gets security
              updates. That sucks for me, but I'm also not gonna stop using the
          viraptor wrote 3 days ago:
          In the last two years I only noticed: address bar can be on the
          bottom (user setting), open sites changed from tiles to a list. What
          other major UI changes have happened? (Or are you talking about
          desktop UI?)
            TeMPOraL wrote 3 days ago:
            > What other major UI changes have happened?
            It's slow as molasses and loses UI events. I had auto-update turned
            off so I didn't use the new Firefox for Android until recently, and
            now I sincerely regret I updated it.
            They also did something silly with trying to match your tap to
            closest link even if your tap falls squarely outside of the link's
            activation area. It's super annoying on sites with small text, like
            On the flip side, the UI being garbage made me stop browsing HN on
            my phone, so overall, perhaps that's an improvement in terms of my
            fctorial wrote 3 days ago:
            On desktop, url bar click behavior. It was changed from full
            selection to cursor, and then reverted.
          veselin wrote 3 days ago:
          I use Firefox on Android all the time. When I occasionally open
          Chrome, I see the UI there changes quite often. Now it has tab
          groups. Maybe a month ago it changed the url bar.
            fctorial wrote 3 days ago:
            > Now it has tab groups
            It's hidden behind a right click menu. So it's a muscle memory
            friendly change. I don't remember the url bar change to be too
            disorienting either.
              Zababa wrote 3 days ago:
              >So it's a muscle memory friendly change
              It's not really. Now when you right click (long press) to open a
              link on a new tab it opens it in the same tab group as your tab.
              If you then use the button at the top to switch tabs (how it
              worked before), you are now switching tab groups. To switch tabs
              in your tab group, you have to do it at the bottom.
        xuhu wrote 3 days ago:
        How does Total Cookie Protection work with sites that redirect users to
        authentication providers on other domains ? What about shops that
        redirect to payment processors that rely on some magic cookie sharing
        in the background ? What about company.com loading some
        cookie-dependent content from company-cdn.com ?
          Ayesh wrote 3 days ago:
          As far as I understand, this only affects sub requests (iframes, Ajax
          requests, scripts, CSS, etc), and not the main request.
          In a redirect, the third party site is used as a friest party
          request, and should not be limited by this.
          See same site cookies and referrer policy to limit how much
          information is leaked to a third party with redirects.
          DyslexicAtheist wrote 3 days ago:
          > What about company.com loading some cookie-dependent content from
          company-cdn.com ?
          I've always tried to set up delivery of all static assets w/out
          cookies so that I do not incur the performance overhead. Not that it
          makes a huge difference except on very large sites. But last time I
          checked, performance & speed-test tools even remove points if this
          isn't done. Seems this is a feature not a bug or am I missing
        forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
        What I'd like to see in a browser is a button which resets it to the UI
        from Firefox 1.0 [1] OS-provided window border and titlebar
        Standard menubar with keyboard hints, always displayed
        Five buttons: Back, forward, reload, stop, home
        Address bar and separate search field
        Status bar which shows me link URL when I hover a link [1] 
        Personally, these days I use a keyboard-driven browser without any of
        that stuff, just the frame, vertical tabs on the right, and a status
        bar. But for people in my friends and family circle, I think that
        interface would be infinitely more functional and productive than
        anything else I've seen.
   URI  [1]: https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/web-design-history/mozilla-fir...
          lucideer wrote 3 days ago:
          Everything you listed except for the status bar can be gotten by
          customising the UI in Firefox (not single-click but pretty easy).
          On the other hand, if this is the kind of approach to UI you like
          personally, I think the Vivaldi browser would be up your alley (sadly
          not open-source though).
            forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
            Sorry, but that is not even close to true, see my other comment
            describing what doesn't work: [1] Vivaldi is OK, but it's
            proprietary AFAIK?
   URI      [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26276871
              lucideer wrote 3 days ago:
              Aha, yes sorry: re: the menubar, I am on a Mac so I didn't
              realise that wasn't restore-able on other systems.
              Re: the status bar I had mentioned that, that's unfortunately
              still missing.
              Vivaldi is proprietary sadly :'( But it does tick all of your
              boxes otherwise.
          jangid wrote 3 days ago:
          I just want the disconnect button. It used to sit in status bar. I
          don't want to fetch things when I am reading downloaded articles.
            forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
            Remember when browsers would actually cache pages and not reload
            them every time you accidentally blinked or moved the mouse cursor?
          ebegnwgnen wrote 3 days ago:
          Go to Menu -> Customize.
          Tick "Title Bar"
          Drag & Drop the "search" widget aside your URL bar
          Drag & Drop the Five buttons you mention where you want
          You're welcome.
          (for the status bar URL link preview on hover it's already the case
          by default)
            forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
            Thank you for your reply. Your suggested solutions are not
            complete, however.
            The status bar is not persistent.
            Also, for whatever reason, the URLs displayed in the status bar are
            cut off with an ellipsis, even when they would fit inside the
            The menu bar -- File, Edit, View, etc. -- is still not displayed.
            And when it is displayed, the keyboard accelerators are not. I do
            realize this is in part the window manager and OS's
            By the way, most of the actions you described are not even possible
            without using the mouse. Firefox, and most desktop applications,
            used to be 100% accessible without using the mouse. (Mac has always
            been an exception, but it was covered 100% on Windows and close to
            complete on GNU.)
            marcosdumay wrote 3 days ago:
            And have it all reverted at random because well "there seems to be
            along time since you last used Firefox, do you want to lose all
            your configurations? Yes. Later."
              AshamedCaptain wrote 3 days ago:
              Each time I see that prompt I have to pause and consider the
              otherwise wacky theory that there evil forces trying to cripple
              Mozilla from the inside.
              Why. Just why.
                marcosdumay wrote 2 days ago:
                I dunno. Software often have very unintuitive features, like
                the problem of closing with CTRL-Q on Linux, that looks like a
                "damn, why did they put it there on the first place", but
                actually is something GTK does if you follow the guidelines
                (what goes to show that most software doesn't follow them).
                My bet is that they were receiving complaints of Firefox
                breaking due to bad migration of settings between versions, so
                instead of fixing the migrations, they decided that this
                user-hostile anti-feature was good enough.
                  forgotmypw17 wrote 2 days ago:
                  >My bet is that they were receiving complaints of Firefox
                  breaking due to bad migration of settings between versions,
                  so instead of fixing the migrations, they decided that this
                  user-hostile anti-feature was good enough.
                  I think this is actually a good feature, one of the few
                  introductions which I think if worthwhile, even if the
                  implementation is a bit lacking.
                  You have to balance the user being able to see the message
                  with not annoying them, and it's not difficult to achieve.
                  Configuration bloat is a real problem in most applications
                  which allow third-party extensions, and I've seen some
                  stunning examples of extensions bloat on some people's
                  computers, Chrome users included. On the other hand, when I
                  question it, they tell me, "I use all those!"
                  This article I came across here on HN really enlightened me:
   URI            [1]: https://www.asktog.com/columns/000maxscrns.html
                    marcosdumay wrote 2 days ago:
                    Hum... Keep in mind that there is no option to not erase
                    your configurations. And that "configurations" has a very
                    bread sense, including everything from about:config
                    settings, themes, extensions, history, cache, cookies,
                    saved passwords, and even for a short period including
                    bookmarks (thankfully that one they stopped erasing). And,
                    by the way, Firefox will revert from a backup if you are
                    logged in into an account, what is probably the reason the
                    devs didn't nuke this by themselves, but also leaves plenty
                    of room for conspiracy theories and user enragement.
                    Having a button somewhere where the user can go and reset
                    those things is ok. But keeping pestering them until they
                    click on the button is really not.
                      forgotmypw17 wrote 1 day ago:
                      Thanks for clarifying that, I have seen the dialog
                      before, but never investigated what it actually does.
                      It sounds like something which started out as a good idea
                      and was then steered into user abuse territory.
                forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
                It's hard to try to come up with another explanation, to be
                honest. When I try imagine how incompetence can explain
                everything that's happened with Firefox in the past several
                years, it feels like I'm going for the gold in the mental
                gymnastics world championship.
            chrismorgan wrote 3 days ago:
            However, the status bar is no longer persistent, but only appears
            when hovering over a link. Also in the past you used to be able to
            control the text in the status bar via the window.status variable
            in JavaScript. This was disabled as it was used for malicious
            purposes (faking link destinations and misleading users by putting
            page-controlled content in the browser chrome), and after that
            there didn’t seem much point to wasting 20–30px of precious
            vertical space all the time.
            I would also note that the address bar and search box got merged
            for a good reason, because their functionalities steadily converged
            over time as the address bar became more powerful and useful. You
            can still have them split if you really want, but it is unlikely to
            actually benefit most people.
          dudeinjapan wrote 3 days ago:
          Should drop CSS support while they're at it.
            forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
            You can turn off CSS in many browsers. It is under the Accessiblity
            dialog in IE, at least in 6.x. Firefox also supports disabling CSS
            in older versions, and so does Opera before the crippling WebKit
            I can't imagine it being that difficult to implement as a feature.
            If the setting is on, you would skip interpreting any  tags and
            style= attributes.
            Past versions of many browsers support selecting between multiple
            stylesheets specified by the page, as well as provide your own
            stylesheet to use in place or in addition to the page's stylesheet.
            (This was one of the main, amazing fucking benefits of CSS, to
            separate presentation from content, so that users who were hindered
            by the page's styles could turn it off and still be able to view
            the content.
            And all of it works great if you do it right, because the styles
            cascade, and, I apologize for repeating myself, the content layer
            is separate from the presentation layer.
            At some point all these features went away, 'cause fuck
            accessibility, I guess.
            Meanwhile, CSS became Turing complete, so security-wise it's like
            having a second JavaScript which cannot be turned off.
            Great progress all around. /s
            When people ask me why I spend time on ensuring that I support
            older browsers in my projects, this is one of the reasons.
            Sometimes I just want to use a decent fucking browser that's not
            been lobotomized, and at least I can do it on my own sites.
              progman32 wrote 3 days ago:
              Was View -> Page Style -> No Style removed for 86?
                forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
                The menu is no longer there, AFAIK. I have not spent much time
                looking for the feature, to be honest, and I no longer keep
                Firefox installed except when testing, so I won't look for its
                existence now.
                (I usually apt install before testing and apt remove after,
                because otherwise it often becomes the system default.)
                  progman32 wrote 3 days ago:
                  Just checked. It's there.
                    forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
                    Thank you
          stkdump wrote 3 days ago:
          Can't imagine anyone being happier nowadays without tabs.
            forgotmypw17 wrote 3 days ago:
            Tabs were always there since before it was even called Firefox.
            astura wrote 3 days ago:
            Firefox has had tabs since it was in beta (and called Phoenix);
            It's the reason I started using it back then (~2002)
            wtallis wrote 3 days ago:
            Did you ever use Firefox 1.0? It supported tabs.
            simongr3dal wrote 3 days ago:
            Presumably your application would just be creating new windows and
            your windowing system would take care of displaying it as either
            tabs or separate windows.
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