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on Gopher (inofficial)
URI Visit Hacker News on the Web
COMMENT PAGE FOR:
URI Memories are made by breaking DNA â and fixing it
thro1 wrote 6 hours 10 min ago:
Every neuron in the brain has unique DNA and ancestorship - ongoing
record of neuronal life history. [1] (2015) : Somatic mutations create
nested lineage trees, allowing them to be dated relative to
developmental landmarks and revealing a polyclonal architecture of the
human cerebral cortex. Thus, somatic mutations in the brain represent a
durable and ongoing record of neuronal life history, from development
through postmitotic function.
URI [1]: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aab1785
URI [2]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-surprise...
suoduandao3 wrote 8 hours 35 min ago:
interesting. Brings to mind this study: [1] Memory and DNA are both
weird. As an appreciator of weirdness it's fun to see that there's some
kind of connection between the two. Anyone know if there a theory of
weirdness where it would compound?
URI [1]: https://sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/papers/An-experimental-test-o...
LarsDu88 wrote 9 hours 2 min ago:
Interesting. I think TLR-9 stands for toll-like receptor 9. And these
toll proteins were originally studied in fruit fly dorsal ventral
patterning and also play a role in the innate immune system which we
share with insects.
If this study is right (who knows if it will end up being
reproducible), then this would be a great example of how evolution
recycles existing proteins to "invent" new stuff.
Toll proteins were probably originally involved in body pattern
formation, were recycled into a role in innate immunity, and finally in
mammals may also play a role in triggering an immune response based DNA
damage repair event that plays a role in memory formation.
newzisforsukas wrote 3 hours 23 min ago:
Or a innate signal recognition of anything that is worth remembering
(sensory stimuli, internal stimuli, etc)
armchairdweller wrote 9 hours 14 min ago:
I found one of the most interesting aspects of memory to be its
non-locality. There were a lot of experiments in the 20th century
(lesions etc.) showing that memory is fundamentally non-local. You
could remove large parts of brains and the memories were still there.
This is difficult to explain with "local" / neural-network-like
theories of memory. If you lesion specific parts of GPT4, the "memory
trace" will be gone.
I find this incredibly interesting. Is this still the primary view?
The hippocampus is involved in formation of new memories. Without it
this process is not working at all.
pfdietz wrote 9 hours 24 min ago:
Does this mean education is carcinogenic?
begueradj wrote 10 hours 41 min ago:
That's something we can use to interpret what is mentioned in "The
Talent Code" book:
URI [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Talent-Code-Greatness-Born-Grown/dp/055...
nicman23 wrote 10 hours 49 min ago:
damn assassin's creed got it right?
lukeinator42 wrote 11 hours 18 min ago:
Interestingly, although the hippocampus plays a massive role in memory
consolidation, memories are ultimately distributed throughout the
cortex.
I'm curious whether this mechanism generalizes to all neurons or is
specific to how the hippocampus can learn quickly, especially since the
hippocampus is the one place where neurogenesis has been found in
adults.
bjornsing wrote 10 hours 38 min ago:
What evidence is there for this distribution over the whole cortex
hypothesis?
namero999 wrote 9 hours 32 min ago:
As Michael Levin's work shows, one doesn't even need a brain or a
nervous system for memory
URI [1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brains-are-not-...
lukeinator42 wrote 10 hours 15 min ago:
The classic study of patient H.M., who had his hippocampus removed,
showed that the hippocampus isn't where memories are stored
long-term [1] (this was one of the first studies to discover the
role of the hippocampus in memory). H.M. was still able to recall
memories from before the surgery, and numerous animal and human
studies have demonstrated this too.
The hippocampus connects to most of the cortex, and there is an
entire research area looking into hippocampal replay and how it
facilitates consolidation, but there definitely isn't a singular
place where memories are stored in the brain long-term.
URI [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC497229/
noworld wrote 10 hours 32 min ago:
[1] .
URI [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4526749/#:~:t...
bugbuddy wrote 11 hours 21 min ago:
I am surprised no one has referenced the Animus here.
Terr_ wrote 10 hours 51 min ago:
While I see the association, there's no reason to think that DNA from
a billions of nerve cells in your brain is somehow being synced to
specific single cells. (Haploid cells that are missing half the usual
load of DNA, to boot.)
tamimio wrote 11 hours 29 min ago:
How does that work in visual memory, does it break and fix it too and
that quickly? I have strong visual memory that I remember back in
school I used to remember the page and itâs page number just by
looking at it for few seconds, and if I saw a face for a second even
randomly anywhere, I can recall when and where for a long period
after.. I find it hard to imagine or rather scary all that is
breaking/fixing the dna..
RaftPeople wrote 9 hours 39 min ago:
There is a lot of activity with DNA for long term potentiation even
without this breaking/fixing stuff. Learning requires epigenetic
modifications to DNA in the neuron. DNA near the synapse (not
necessarily in the Soma) is altered to produce the proteins that
sustain the synapse at new level.
sva_ wrote 11 hours 0 min ago:
The article doesn't seem to claim that this is the only mechanism,
even if the title seems to suggest so.
softfalcon wrote 11 hours 8 min ago:
My guess would be that itâs not all happening at once as you have
short and long term memory.
The simplest analogy is that your short term memory is a buffer that
doesnât use DNA, but a limited electro chemical storage of new
present-moment information.
Then it is transcribed through several steps of ever longer term
storage methods in the brain. Some of which require sleep.
cjbgkagh wrote 11 hours 44 min ago:
Huh, I wonder if this is why RCCX genes associated with autoimmune
conditions / inflammation is also associated with higher IQs.
lupire wrote 11 hours 26 min ago:
The OP observation is that memory formation includes damaging DNA and
repairing it , either as a side effect or as a mechanisms of memory
formation, but it's unclear which.
Generalized autoimmune disorders probably wouldn't increase memory
formation as a mechanism -- that effect would be "memorizing" "white
noise", not a specific meaningful memory (neuron path).
But perhaps high IQ individuals, associated with hyperactivity/high
metabolism of some kind, have more/faster neuronal activity, cause
more of this DNA damage then the average person experiences, to the
point where it has detrimental inflammatory effects?
cjbgkagh wrote 11 hours 6 min ago:
I have multiple TNXB SNPs, tested very high IQ, and have
debilitating levels of inflammation with ME/CFS. Wasnât so bad
when I was younger but got really bad in my 20s and 30s. I have it
under control now with quite an exotic mix of medications.
My memory is pretty insanely good as is my ability to learn new
things. I had previously thought it was due to interest and acumen
but have come to accept that I am fortunate in ways that others are
not - the difference being that I no longer blame others inability
to learn as much or as quickly on an apparent laziness or lack of
interest.
ME/CFS is very debilitating though so most people with this will
probably just fade away in their 20s and 30s. There are ways to
treat it that I wish more people knew about.
Edit; I should mention that too much inflammation is associated
with brain fog which inhibits working memory and memory formation.
Brain fog is one of the many core symptoms of ME/CFE.
It would make sense if the body is optimizing childhood learning
over long term health.
wburglett wrote 10 hours 23 min ago:
What approaches are there for treating ME/CFS?
cjbgkagh wrote 10 hours 4 min ago:
It depends on the cause but for the TNXB subset which is
probably a big chunk of them there is hGH peptides,
Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), low dose modafinil,
amitriptyline, IGF-agonists (semaglutide/ozempic), low dose
naltrexone (LDN), TUDCA, eliminate sugar (including fruit) from
diet, melatonin, UV-A light therapy in eyes during the day,
blue light blocking glasses at night, sleep hygiene, lower
stress lifestyle, supplemental T3 hormone, caffeine, and
resistance exercise. Cardio above a fast walk should probably
be eliminated due to post exertional malaise (PEM). The cause
of PEM is a tough one that Iâm still working on.
wburglett wrote 8 hours 16 min ago:
For PEM specifically have you had any experience with
pyridostigmine or cumin (the kitchen spice)?
cjbgkagh wrote 7 hours 58 min ago:
Iâve tried Enalapril which seems similar to
Pyridostigmine, I ended up with pretty strong blood
pressure swings. Iâll check it out though. The problem
with testing PEM for me is the extreme downside if the test
fails, it could be many months before Iâm good again.
Instead of trying these things myself Iâm more apt to
crowd source from people who I know that also have PEM and
more open to testing it.
kenjackson wrote 12 hours 10 min ago:
Dumb question from a very last biology person. I thought memories were
stored in the brain and The brain retrieved them. How does the brain
get the data from the DNA for long term memories?
The article seeks like a simple explanation, but it still doesnât
make sense to me.
rolph wrote 10 hours 26 min ago:
so far its a correlate, not yet determined to be a direct mechanistic
causation
pazimzadeh wrote 11 hours 53 min ago:
Like most cells, brain cells have DNA. I don't think this is saying
that the memory is directly encoded in the DNA, but that when a
memory is formed (in this case a fear response), that can lead to
breaks in neuronal DNA, and loose DNA in cells triggers the immune
system, which then tries to repair the damage.
kenjackson wrote 11 hours 34 min ago:
And the repairing of this broken DNA by the immune system somehow
strengthens the encoding of the memory? But the DNA itself
doesnât actually capture any of the memory. Is that accurate?
namaria wrote 10 hours 52 min ago:
> And the repairing of this broken DNA by the immune system
somehow strengthens the encoding of the memory?
"In other words, during damage-and-repair cycles, neurons might
encode information about the memory-formation event that
triggered the DNA breaks, she says."
I'd say the researchers speculate something like what you said.
The inflammatory response and the activities involved in DNA
repair seem correlated with long term memory formation.
Vox_Leone wrote 13 hours 2 min ago:
Although I have nothing substantial to contribute to the topic, I can't
help but notice the beautiful mess of the neural field shown in the
image; a reminder of the complexity of the real world and the
challenges that still remain. Very far from our organized models
arranged in layers of 'objects' and the didactic diagrams containing
two neurons, or even convolutional network diagrams. Which brings to
mind the good Professor âit must be made as simple as possible, but
not simplerâ.
ofslidingfeet wrote 13 hours 31 min ago:
Terrence McKenna called it.
firtoz wrote 12 hours 29 min ago:
Please elaborate.
ofslidingfeet wrote 4 hours 7 min ago:
There was at least one talk where he clearly speculated that,
spirituality aside, he thinks DNA plays a role in long term memory
formation just because that's physiologically the only place
memories could persist. Unfortunately the only record of this I
knew about has been deleted from youtube.
neom wrote 11 hours 25 min ago:
Terrence talked a lot about everything as code, and DNA being that
code, or part of that code anyway. He's talked about it a lot in
different ways, so I'm not sure what talk OP is specifically
referring to. He gave a couple of talks that are related to I
Ching, it might be in detail in one of those.
URI [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk8GsaRA6aY
throwaway4aday wrote 13 hours 59 min ago:
Interesting that this involves a response similar to an immune response
to a pathogen. I've read a couple articles about alternate theories of
Alzheimer's linking it to an increased immune response in the brain.
Jensson wrote 12 hours 37 min ago:
> similar to an immune response to a pathogen
Maybe that is the origin? Cells learning to counter different threats
and communicating that information to other cells could be a
plausible first step towards intelligence.
dappermanneke wrote 8 hours 28 min ago:
thereâs no learning involved in the immune response in the brain.
the brain is limited to the innate immune system, of which TLRs and
their binding to conserved domains are basically the major
component. thereâs no adaptive immune system that does
âlearningâ here (and by learning in the adaptive immune system
we mean recombination of antibodies, presentation of contents of
each cell on the surface of the cells for antibodies to try and
bind to, and the preservation of cells that carry antibodies that
bound to something successfully as memory cells to enable long term
immunity)
2snakes wrote 4 hours 12 min ago:
This does not seem right. From what I recall, there is some sort
of memory for the immune system.
dappermanneke wrote 3 hours 43 min ago:
you should reread what I wrote
newzisforsukas wrote 14 hours 27 min ago:
URI [1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07220-7
delichon wrote 15 hours 49 min ago:
Fascinating that the apparatus for memory between generations may also
be used for memory within a generation. "Breaking" and "fixing" DNA
could also be taken as a description of meiosis or mitosis. Perhaps
there is some code re-use there.
api wrote 9 hours 57 min ago:
Antihistamines that cross the blood brain barrier make people feel
stoned or tired because histamine does something entirely different
in the brain from what it does in the rest of the body.
Seems like there's a lot of code reuse in the brain. It operates
almost like a different sort of biology encapsulated within an animal
body.
logtempo wrote 15 hours 12 min ago:
so, my body is refactoring all the time? Cool 8)
logtempo wrote 15 hours 12 min ago:
so, my body is refactoring all the time?
juitpykyk wrote 15 hours 40 min ago:
Neuron's DNA is not passed down, it would be quite logical for
evolution to use neuronal DNA for weight storage.
phkahler wrote 11 hours 25 min ago:
>> it would be quite logical for evolution to use neuronal DNA for
weight storage.
To pass that down you'd have to replicate the connectivity of the
network for the weights to be relevant right?
Related: The article doesn't say which DNA areas are broken and
repaired. Nor does it say if they are modified. It seems like
encoding weights in DNA would make them more robust but harder to
change. If so, there should be a particular region where this is
happening. Maybe there's a mapping between certain DNA areas and
each synapse. That'd be really interesting.
RaftPeople wrote 9 hours 34 min ago:
Independent of this breaking/fixing, it's already known that DNA
near the synapse (not necessarily in the neurons Soma) is
modified via epigenetics to sustain the synapse at the new level.
So yes, DNA epigenetic changes near the synapse are a key part of
maintaining the "weight" or strength of that particular
connection. ("key part" phrase because there is a lot of
complexity and they haven't nailed it all down, there could be
other "key parts").
phkahler wrote 6 hours 11 min ago:
>> DNA epigenetic changes near the synapse are a key part of
maintaining the "weight" or strength of that particular
connection.
What do you mean by "near the synapse"? Is there DNA outside
the nucleus or something? Is there DNA that maps (corresponds
to) the synaptic pattern of the neuron?
RaftPeople wrote 3 hours 19 min ago:
Yes there is DNA outside the nucleus. The DNA near each
synapse gets modified (epigenetic) based on activity in that
physical area so it can produce the proper proteins to
preserve the state of that synapse over the long term.
Edit: the DNA is in Synaptic Vesicles
juitpykyk wrote 11 hours 3 min ago:
Neurons are not on the germ line, whatever happens to their DNA
is not passed down to your children.
There was another article in the recent years about neurons using
RNA or DNA for storing information related to their activation
patterns.
axus wrote 9 hours 39 min ago:
The baby is connected to the mother's placenta for months,
maybe information could be transmitted then. I've never heard
anything to support that idea, though!
ChainOfFools wrote 5 hours 41 min ago:
This always seemed like one of those little biological
details, like the well known example of that nerve which
loops all the way down a giraffe's neck and back again in
order to connect two regions only a few inches apart, that
shows that nature doesn't refactor.
Because it seems like such a waste of the opportunity
afforded by extended physical secueity and direct connection
between mother and developing child, that some means of
transferring a portion of the mother's learned knowledge, or
at least some coarse grained abstraction of it, to the fetus,
has never developed.
The lazy dismissal of this question is just to say, if nature
needed it, it would have evolved it, but this doesn't seem to
hold in every case [0]. It seems rather that there was no way
for such a capability to be built out of extending existing
mechanisms, with the major barrier being the absence of nerve
tissue in the umbilical cord, where higher level CNS
connectivity might have evolved from as a foothold
[0] and certainly doesn't account for what may happen in the
future unless nature is completely done developing everything
that could be developed. Nor does it incorporate the idea
that human manipulation of our own biology is not itself also
part of nature.
thro1 wrote 6 hours 38 min ago:
Wellcome. Sometimes it may happen that familiar stem cells
cross maternal-fetal barrier in placenta, persist somehow and
start to function regardless, where stem cells are needed -
usually in younger sibling coming from the older, in place of
original cells, even in the brain - forming part of it as of
another person (more or less) - interconnected but not the
same..
The Most Mysterious Cells in Our Bodies Don't Belong to Us
[1] ( [2] )
URI [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/01/...
URI [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861497
JPLeRouzic wrote 8 hours 15 min ago:
In addition, most parts of the first cell of what will become
a baby, come from the mother. This includes all DNA in
mitochondria and another organelle that I don't remember the
name.
rolph wrote 10 hours 30 min ago:
epigenetic inheritance is real
cjbgkagh wrote 11 hours 41 min ago:
I wonder if that means that each neuron could act as a mini turning
machine
rolisz wrote 8 hours 55 min ago:
Check out Michael Levin's work, who's done some experiments with
skin cell and has shown that they learn to do stuff.
rolph wrote 10 hours 18 min ago:
stop wondering and look deeper, youve bumped into the begining of
an incredible journey. even individual protiens, exhibit rule
paring.
cjbgkagh wrote 9 hours 56 min ago:
My equivocation was to avoid downvote brigades that hit me last
time I posited this same idea on HN.
londons_explore wrote 14 hours 51 min ago:
Many nervous system behaviours do appear to be passed through
genetics - for example, the ability to breathe, the reflex to avoid
pain, etc.
I suspect in the future we might find mechanisms beyond simple
natural selection that allowed those mechanisms to get encoded in
genetics.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote 6 hours 25 min ago:
Could they be transferred while in the womb?
throwaway4aday wrote 14 hours 0 min ago:
I think you're talking to the wrong point. These memories aren't
being encoded in germ cells, they are after the fact changes to
DNA in mature neurons which have completely differentiated. I
would think it's very possible at that stage of development for
them to add or remove segments of DNA in order to encode new
information not related to the development of the cell as long as
it didn't interfere too much with parts that are actively used
for the ongoing upkeep of cell activity. It would need to alter
how the cell functions a little bit for the changes to modify the
neuron's ability to process signals though.
CuriouslyC wrote 13 hours 31 min ago:
I should note that studies have demonstrated that bacteria who
have been modified not to be able to consume lactose will
develop mutations that allow them to consume lactose again much
more quickly than would be expected given the number of
bacteria, the rate of random mutations and the size of the
genome. It has been hypothesized that there is a cellular
mechanism to control which portions of DNA are easily mutable,
possibly through a combination of chromatin structure,
epigenetic modification and changes to the local chemical
environment via metabolism.
This mechanism might exist in a scaled up form in humans.
rolph wrote 10 hours 28 min ago:
bacterial plasmids are a common form of horizontal gene flow
between individuals
juitpykyk wrote 12 hours 39 min ago:
Isn't that what happens in antibody germinal centers?
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_hypermutation
darkerside wrote 15 hours 51 min ago:
What might this news imply about NSAIDS and their impact on forming
memories?
fragmede wrote 12 hours 54 min ago:
Shit, what does this mean for alcohol, and its ability to interfere
with forming memories? We think we know why (alcohol affects
glutamate which affects memory), but with this new information, does
that change things?
neom wrote 11 hours 34 min ago:
I was thinking recently about this thing I've encountered as a
recovering alcoholic. I'm pretty sure I have a "drunk memories"
brain and a "sober memories" brain - and I don't know I can access
some of each while I'm in the other, that is to say sober memories
when I'm drunk and drunk memories when I'm sober. I'd like to test
this more, but I'm not willing to break my sobriety, so who knows
if it's imagined or real.
phkahler wrote 10 hours 0 min ago:
>> I'm pretty sure I have a "drunk memories" brain and a "sober
memories" brain
A pet hypothesis of mine is that maybe some of the brain
chemicals act like an extra input to the neural network, and can
be associated with various behaviors or memories. Lets say there
are 5 of them which would create a 5 dimensional "chemical space"
you're operating in. Certain things can be remembered and
associated with regions in this space. Being anxious, depressed,
afraid, or whatever could be temporarily "cured" by shifting you
out of the current region in this space. Which chemicals work
would depend on your specific programming. This might explain
people who have a fear response to positive emotional situations
(they were traumatized by someone that otherwise gave them
positive emotions that release certain chemicals). Just a weird
hypothesis - I bet it's been researched but I haven't looked.
Edit: One of the other responses to the parent post provided
this:
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory
Terr_ wrote 10 hours 45 min ago:
> Research shows that individuals are less likely to remember
information learned while intoxicated when they are once again
sober. However, information learned or memories created while
intoxicated are most effectively retrieved when the individual is
in a similar state of intoxication.
URI [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory
hoc wrote 13 hours 28 min ago:
I immediately thought of that too. But also other influences on these
reactions might be interesting to look at. From stress levels to
metabolic issues including unbalanced supply with nutrients,
infections, injuries. How do you remember your last exhausting
argument or traumatic experience...
Not sure about the actual mechanisms, but the idea of these kind of
influences on individual memory formation is intriguing.
After all, it's hacker news :)
newzisforsukas wrote 14 hours 41 min ago:
> Participants using aspirin at baseline but not 5 years prior were
more likely to develop cognitive impairment [1] Many related articles
URI [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4670291/
GlassOwAter wrote 12 hours 43 min ago:
Uh oh.. my doctors never told me this. That explains the last 10
years x.x
tomrod wrote 15 hours 26 min ago:
If it's not already known it opens an intriguing avenue for research.
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