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                                                             on Gopher (inofficial)
   URI Visit Hacker News on the Web
       
       
       COMMENT PAGE FOR:
   URI   This World of Ours (2014) [pdf]
       
       
        pinebox wrote 1 day ago:
        This all seemed very clever until I read the bio and learned that the
        author works for Microsoft -- the last company that has any business
        being flip about security.  Bro needs to STFU and get on with the
        security drudgery, because his customer's opposition very definitely is
        the Mossad.
       
        some_random wrote 1 day ago:
        Where does this deification of Mossad come from anyways? They've done a
        lot more than western intel agencies post cold war but that's
        absolutely come with failures just like every other intel agency in
        existence.
       
        tomhow wrote 1 day ago:
        Previously:
        
        This World of Ours (2014) [pdf] - [1] - July 2021 (6 comments)
        
   URI  [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27915173
       
        singular_atomic wrote 1 day ago:
        When we need him the most (a world overrun in llms and AI slop) it
        seems like he's vanished...
       
        bitbasher wrote 1 day ago:
        My favorite talk by Mickens ( [1] ), also talks about Mossad.
        
   URI  [1]: https://vimeo.com/95066828
       
        teddyh wrote 1 day ago:
        Despite his somewhat annoying style, that article has many good points
        about the aloofness of security researchers. However, I will disagree
        on two points which the article contains:
        
        1. Tor is (rightly) used by anyone who has a good reason for remaining
        anonymous. (See [REALNAMES] for who this can be.) Anyone trying to
        smear Tor as only used by drug dealers and other unsavory types are
        themselves suspect of having an agenda of discouraging Tor use for
        anyone lest they be suspected. This can only lead to an installation of
        Tor being viewed as a suspicious thing in itself; who would want that?
        
        2. His threat model of Mossad or not-Mossad leaves out one important
        actor, which we can call the NSA. They, and others like them, unlike
        Mossad, are not after you personally in that they don't want to do
        anything to you. Not immediately. Not now. They simply want to get to
        know you better. They are gathering information. All the information.
        What you do, what you buy, how you vote, what you think. And they want
        to do this to everybody, all the time. This might or not bite you in
        the future. He seems to imply that since nothing immediately bad is
        happening by using slightly bad security, then it’s OK and we
        shouldn’t worry about it, since Mossad is not after us. I think that
        we should have a slightly longer view of what allowing NSA (et al.) to
        know everything about everybody would mean, and who NSA could some day
        give this information to, and what those people could do with the
        information. You have to think a few steps ahead to realize the danger.
        
        [REALNAMES] Who is harmed by a "Real Names" policy? < [1] >
        
        (Repost of < [2] >)
        
   URI  [1]: https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/Who_is_harmed_by_a_%22Rea...
   URI  [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23572778
       
          reedf1 wrote 1 day ago:
          honestly I find any idiosyncratic style refreshing in AI slop world
       
        coolThingsFirst wrote 1 day ago:
        Another example of power resides where men believe it resides.
        
        Americans are just very scared of Mossad. Tons of money goes into
        Holywood to make them appear invincible to the world. Fun fact, they
        aren't.
        
        Intelligence agencies have great capabilities no doubt they get
        billions of $$$ and have utter immunity to do whatever they want in the
        name of national security. Why is only Mossad scary? I'd be more scared
        of the CIA and KGB than of Mossad.
        
        US has never been in existential threat like Israel has been, if it
        were I wouldn't want to stand in their way.
       
          wk_end wrote 1 day ago:
          > Americans are just very scared of Mossad. Tons of money goes into
          Holywood to make them appear invincible to the world.
          
          I don't believe I've ever seen Mossad depicted in a Hollywood movie?
          I guess there was Munich. Are there specific movies/TV shows that
          you're thinking of?
          
          Americans, by and large, don't even think about Mossad. Certainly not
          the way they're aware of the CIA and KGB - which no one should be
          scared of at the moment since it hasn't existed since 1991, though
          obviously there are modern successors.
       
            cool_man_bob wrote 1 day ago:
            > Are there specific movies/TV shows that you're thinking of?
            
            Not GP, but NCIS is the big one offhand. Of course that show has
            simply gotten more and more ridiculous on general over the years
       
        anthk wrote 1 day ago:
        Ah, very Germanic tactics against some Mediterranean foe. Us, Southern
        Mediterranean/half Atlantic guys, we have it easier. We would just put
        fake data, hints and traces untl they get mad and paranoid between
        themselves, we are experts on that since forever.
        
        Also, the Southern part of the country (which I am pretty much not
        related culturally at least on folklore and tons of customs) managed to
        bribe even the Russian mafias. They were that crazy, it's like a force
        of nature. OFC don't try backstabbing back these kind of people, some
        'folklorical' people are pretty much clan/family based (even more than
        the Southern Italians) and they will kick your ass back in the most
        unexpected, random and non-spectacular way ever, pretty much the
        opposite of the Mexican cartels where they love to do showoff and
        displays. No, the Southern Iberians are something else, mixed along
        Atlantics and Mediterranean people since millenia and they know all the
        tricks, either from the Brits/Germanics to Levantine Semitic foes...
        
        You won't expect it. You are like some Mossad random Levi, roaming
        around, and you just met some nice middle aged woman on a stereotyped
        familiar bar where the alleged ties to some clan must be nearly zero,
        and the day after some crazy Islamic terrorist wacko with ties to drug
        cartels will try to stab you some Sunday in the morning and he might
        try to succeed with the dumbest and cheapest way ever.
        
        No, is not an exaggeration. We might not be Italy, but don't try to
        mess up with some kind of people. My country is not Mafia-bound, but
        criminal cartels, mafias and OFC some terror groups from the Magreb
        (and these bound to the Middle East ones) have deals with each other
        because of, you know, weapons and money. And Marbella it's pretty much
        a hub.
       
          kragen wrote 1 day ago:
          This explains a lot about Argentina.
       
            anthk wrote 1 day ago:
            Half of Iberians can't stand the rascal (picaresca) tradition from
            the other half. Specially the heavy industrialized North.
            
            We are not as divided as Italy, as Spain has powerhouses in the
            South as Airbus and the like, but, yes, there's a 'climatological
            gap' between the different 'Spains' across the mountains.
            
            Not Ethnics, but kinda like what would happen in Italy if the North
            wasn't as developed (the North of Spain isn't bad but you can't
            compare it against the Franco-German-Austrian-Italian industrial
            hub) and the South had their Mafias shut down in the 19th century
            and if they were more developed than they are compared to the
            Southern Spain.
            
            The South here isn't a shithole as Napoli and the like but some
            Andalusian coastal places can be far more dangerous than the Basque
            Country/Navarre in the 80's (terror attacks) for a policeman.
            
            OTOH,  Belgium it's far closer to be a Narcostate than some
            microrregions in Spain such as Algeciras in Cádiz (Andalusia) were
            you can read about the Militarized Police fighting drug boats
            almost as a daily chore.
            
            On Argentina, except for a die hard Ghetto like the '3000
            viviendas' and Cañada Real, every Argentinian would love to stay
            in Spain even at the worst neighbourhood at their town. Iberia it's
            far more secure than Latin America by a huge margin.
            The most dangerous issue on any bad town would be either a
            pickpocket/non-violent rob of watching some low tier drug dealers
            doing their stuff and maybe some very late night rape issue over
            months if not years. Far less than anything you would get in Buenos
            Aires.
            
            Unless, as I said, you really want to mess up your like with some
            sketchy people, the ones you would spot from meters away,
            especially in remote/nearly hidden taverns/pubs where drug dealing
            it's widely known.
            For example, if some pub it's accesed by walking down some stairs
            into a basement, (where you can't see anything from the outside
            without going down); even if it looks good, clean, modern,
            maintained... run away.
       
              kragen wrote 23 hours 15 min ago:
              > On Argentina, except for a die hard Ghetto like the '3000
              viviendas' and Cañada Real, every Argentinian would love to stay
              in Spain even at the worst neighbourhood at their town. Iberia
              it's far more secure than Latin America by a huge margin. [1]
              lists Argentina at 4.31 murders per 100k population per year, a
              bit lower than the US's 5.76, while Spain is way down at 0.69, so
              I think that's sort of true.  6× is sort of "a huge margin". 
              I'm pretty sure there are neighborhoods in Argentina that are
              lower than 0.69, though, and neighborhoods in Spain that are over
              4.31.
              
              On the other hand, 4.31 is already low enough that I don't know
              anybody who's gotten murdered, although when I volunteered in the
              die-hard ghettos I met people whose children had been murdered
              before I met them.  In [2] we can see that Argentina's crude
              death rate is 728 deaths per 100k population per year, so 99.4%
              of deaths are from non-murder causes.  If you somehow acquired
              immunity to all causes of deaths other than murder, and you lived
              in 02025 Argentina until someone murdered you (through some kind
              of time-travel Groundhog Day thing, I guess) your life expectancy
              would be 23000 years.  Real-life people who get heart disease and
              cancer don't really need to worry about getting murdered in
              Argentina unless they start dating a machista.
              
              Consequently, murder is not a major reason that people leave
              Argentina.  (Contrast Honduras at 31.4 murders; Belize with 27.8;
              South Africa with 45.5; Memphis, Tennessee, with 48.0; or St.
              Louis, Missouri, with 87.8.)
              
              No, the reason every Argentinian would love to stay in Spain is
              that Spain has an economy.
              
   URI        [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inten...
   URI        [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_morta...
       
        drdrek wrote 1 day ago:
        The point about the lay person not needing massive parallelism was very
        true, until it was not :D
       
        kragen wrote 1 day ago:
        Both Assange and Snowden are apparently alive and well, despite
        Mossad-like agencies wishing otherwise, largely thanks to Tor; and
        Hamas, whose adversary was in fact the Mossad, apparently still exists.
         Hizbullah has hopefully taught us all a good lesson about supply-chain
        attacks.
        
        Debian is probably the only example of a successful public public-key
        infrastructure, but SSH keys are a perfectly serviceable form of
        public-key infrastructure in everyday life.  At least for developers.
        
        Mickens's skepticism about security labels is, however, justified; the
        problems he identifies are why object-capability models seem more
        successful in practice.
        
        I do agree that better passwords are a good idea, and, prior to the
        widespread deployment of malicious microphones, were adequate
        authentication for many purposes—if you can avoid being phished.  My
        own secure password generator is [1] , and some of its modes are
        memorable correct-horse-battery-staple-type passwords.    It's arguably
        slightly blasphemous, so you may be offended if you are an observant
        Hindu.
        
   URI  [1]: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/netbook-misc-devel/bitwords.py
       
          uvaursi wrote 1 day ago:
          Neither Assange nor Snowden are a threat anymore. They are contained
          and have next to no ability anymore. So it would be a waste of
          resources to pursue them. The lackeys (police etc) are all that’s
          needed here to harass them and make their lives miserable. What’s
          Mossad going to do? Kill them with explosives? That takes all the fun
          out of torturing them and making their lives miserable by proxy.
          
          The only thing I see is that both are contained and quarantined. The
          threat of both has been neutralized to the degree where I think the
          espionage agencies of all these countries are playing along together
          to keep the engine of their craft going uninterrupted without fuss.
          
          In other words, you have to be gullible to think an embassy cares
          about protecting Assange. It’s a phone call from the secret service
          director saying “Keep him there for now, it’s where we want
          him.”
       
          psunavy03 wrote 1 day ago:
          The idea that either of them are at risk of being whacked is utter
          tinfoil-hattery.  The worst Snowden has to fear is being convicted
          and jailed, and it says a lot about him that he fled to Russia of all
          places instead of manning up and facing trial.
       
            BLKNSLVR wrote 22 hours 3 min ago:
            It was the US that forced Snowden into Russia.
       
            alwa wrote 1 day ago:
            Being convicted and jailed can be pretty bad. Didn’t Robert
            Hanssen end up in Florence ADMAX until he died [0]? And, maybe a
            more direct comparison, Wikileaker Joshua Schulte [1]?
            
            [0] [1]
            
   URI      [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence
   URI      [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Schulte
       
            willmarch wrote 1 day ago:
            Snowden didn’t choose Russia as a destination. He left Hong Kong
            for Latin America and got stranded in Moscow when the U.S. revoked
            his passport mid-transit. He spent weeks in the airport transit
            zone while seeking asylum from multiple countries; Russia gave him
            temporary asylum after that.
            
            “Manning up and facing trial” sounds fair in theory, but under
            the Espionage Act there’s no public-interest defense. He’d be
            barred from explaining motive or the public value of the
            disclosures, much of the case would be classified, and past
            national-security whistleblowers have faced severe penalties.
            That’s why he sought asylum.
       
          eykanal wrote 1 day ago:
          > ...Assange and Snowden...
          
          I'd argue that for every Assange and Snowden, there are 100 (1k?
          100k?) people using Tor for illegal, immoral, and otherwise terrible
          things. If you're OK with that, then sure, fine point.
          
          > SSH keys
          
          Heartbleed and Terrapin were both pretty brutal attacks on common PKI
          infra. It's definitely serviceable and very good, but vulnerabilities
          can go for forever without being noticed, and when they are found
          they're devastating.
       
            yapyap wrote 1 day ago:
            If you truly have a secure tool you won’t be able to control what
            your users do with it.
       
            kragen wrote 1 day ago:
            Mickens was arguing that security was illusory, not, as you are,
            that it was subversive and immoral.  My comments were directed at
            his point.  I am not interested in your idea that it would be
            better for nobody to have any privacy.
       
              eykanal wrote 1 day ago:
              > ...who non-ironically believes that Tor is used for things
              besides drug deals and kidnapping plots.
              
              That was the quote I was referring to. Also, of course I didn't
              say that no one should have any privacy; I simply implied a high
              moral cost for this particular form of privacy.
       
                atomic128 wrote 1 day ago:
                Continuously updated HTTP response dumps from all the major Tor
                hidden services: [1] It is accurate to say that Tor's hidden
                service ecosystem is focused on drugs, ransomware,
                cryptocurrency, and sex crime.
                
                However, there are other important things happening there. You
                can think of the crime as cover traffic to hide those important
                things. So it's all good.
                
   URI          [1]: https://rnsaffn.com/zg4/
       
                  JohnBooty wrote 1 day ago:
                  Definitely some heinous-sounding stuff.
                  
                  The third result was "FREE $FOO PORN" where $FOO was
                  something that nearly the entire human race recognizes as
                  deeply Not Okay and is illegal everywhere.
                  
                  I wonder what % of the heinous-sounding sites are actually
                  providing the things they say they are.
                  
                  I'm sure that some (most?) of them actually offer heinous
                  stuff. But surely some of them are honeypots run by law
                  enforcement and some are just straight up scams. However, I
                  have no sense of whether that percentage is 1% or 99%.
       
          prometheus76 wrote 1 day ago:
          > prior to the widespread deployment of malicious microphones, were
          adequate authentication for many purposes
          
          Can you elaborate on this? I don't understand the context for
          malicious microphones and how that affects secure passwords.
       
            kragen wrote 1 day ago:
            Oh, well, it turns out that keyboard sounds leak enough entropy to
            make it easy to attack even very strong passwords.
            
            Microphones on devices such as Ring doorbell cameras are explicitly
            exfiltrating audio data out of your control whenever they're
            activated.  Features like Alexa and Siri require, in some sense,
            24/7 microphone activation, although normally that data isn't
            transmitted off-device except on explicit (vocal) user request. 
            But that control is imposed by non-user-auditable device firmware
            that can be remotely updated at any time.
            
            Finally, for a variety of reasons, it's becoming increasingly
            common to have a microphone active and transmitting data
            intentionally, often to public contexts like livestreaming video.
            
            With the proliferation of such potentially vulnerable microphones
            in our daily lives, we should not rely too heavily on the secrecy
            of short strings that can easily leak through the audio channel.
       
              antonvs wrote 1 day ago:
              Using a password manager is an easy and useful protection against
              audio leaks of passwords.
              
              But this is an example of the kind of thing the OP is talking
              about. You're probably not at a very realistic risk of having
              your password hacked via audio exfiltrated from the Ring camera
              at your front door. Unless it's Mossad et al who want your
              password.
       
                kragen wrote 1 day ago:
                Like "you're probably not at a very realistic risk of having
                your phone wiretapped", this is overindexing on past
                experience—remember that until Room 641A commenced operations
                in 02003 ( [1] ), you weren't, and after it did, your phone was
                virtually guaranteed to be wiretapped.    Similarly, you aren't
                at a very realistic risk of having your password hacked via
                audio, until someone is doing this to 80% of the people in the
                world.    As far as we know, this hasn't happened yet, but it
                certainly will.
                
   URI          [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
       
                  antonvs wrote 15 hours 36 min ago:
                  But again, that’s the Mossad scenario - NSA in this case.
                  You’re essentially reinforcing the OP point. There are
                  three threat models given in Figure 1 of the OP doc, and what
                  you’re saying really only applies to the third.
       
                    kragen wrote 14 hours 13 min ago:
                    No, their Mossad threat model is that the Mossad wants to
                    kill particular people, not steal the passwords of
                    literally every single person on Earth.
       
          sigwinch wrote 1 day ago:
          Why did you choose random’s SystemRandom rather than secrets?
       
            kragen wrote 1 day ago:
            What?
            
            Oh, you mean PEP 506.  I wrote this program in 02012, and PEP 506
            wasn't written until 02015, didn't ship in a released Python until
            3.6 in 02016, and even then was only available in Python 3, which I
            didn't use because it basically didn't work at the time.
            
            PEP 506 is just 22 lines of code wrapping SystemRandom.  There's no
            advantage over just using SystemRandom directly.
       
              _zoltan_ wrote 1 day ago:
              what is 02012 and why write it so strange?
       
                dredmorbius wrote 1 day ago:
                < [1] >
                
                < [2] >
                
                < [3] >
                
   URI          [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45505856
   URI          [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43463920
   URI          [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39175614
       
                will4274 wrote 1 day ago:
                It's the long now foundation thing. The long now foundation
                encourages writing years with five digits to encourage readers
                to think about long term planning, to plan for a future of
                humanity that is measured in more than thousands of years.
                
   URI          [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Now_Foundation
       
                ahoka wrote 1 day ago:
                Obviously it's octal and the person is a time traveler from the
                11th century.
       
                namibj wrote 1 day ago:
                They want to feel like they matter in over 10k years from now,
                where a 4-digit year would start to wrap.
       
                  zahlman wrote 1 day ago:
                  In fact that will be not even 8k years from now.
       
                    sigwinch wrote 1 day ago:
                    I’ll be very embarrassed when I’m still writing 9999 on
                    my checks.
       
        contrarian1234 wrote 1 day ago:
        I think the central premise is a "wrong". The "point" of science isn't
        really to do useful things. Framing things from that angle is in subtle
        ways dangerous bc that shouldnt be part of the incentive structure.
        
        you dont understand the mating behaviors of naked mole rats bc of some
        sense of "usefulness". Its just an investigation of nature and how
        things work. The usefulness comes out unexpectedly. Like you find out
        naked mole are actually maybe biologically immortal
        
        You should just find interesting phenomena and invetigate. Capitalism
        figures out the usefulness side of things
       
          wmwragg wrote 1 day ago:
          Yeah, Science shouldn't be concerned with usefulness, just like Art.
          It's the application of those fields which should concern itself with
          usefulness i.e. applied science, engineering, design etc. I'm not
          saying that scientific research shouldn't be carried out by companies
          with specific goals in mind, just that it shouldn't be the expected
          default.
       
        dnlserrano wrote 1 day ago:
        Mickens essays are always a good read
       
        jones89176 wrote 1 day ago:
        I enjoyed "The Night Watch" a lot: [1] > A systems programmer will know
        what to do when
        society breaks down, because the systems programmer already lives in a
        world without law.
        
   URI  [1]: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/thenightwatch....
       
        Havoc wrote 1 day ago:
        I see this on reddit a lot in self hosting context.
        
        The range of things people do on security is wild. Everything from
        publicly expose everything and pray the apps login function some random
        threw together is solid to elaborate intrusion detection systems.
       
        zkmon wrote 1 day ago:
        Security is a problem caused by ownership of some usefulness. Sometimes
        solution can be around addressing these two causes.
       
          tarjei_huse wrote 1 day ago:
          Do you have a concrete example?
       
            zkmon wrote 1 day ago:
            Do not have concentrated usefulness and do not have concentrated
            ownership.
       
        ChrisMarshallNY wrote 1 day ago:
        I've always enjoyed Mikens' writing. He has a great sense of humor.
        
        I like his using Mossad as the extreme. I guess "Mossad'd" is now a
        verb.
       
        gjvc wrote 1 day ago:
        this guy's stuff reads like word salad and people lap it up.  I've
        never understood why.
       
          torginus wrote 1 day ago:
          He wrote quirky internet humor before it was mainstream, in fact he's
          a victim of his own success - when this article came out this
          would've been considered funny and witty writing, but has become
          tired and derivative enough today to provoke a negative reaction.
       
          EdwardDiego wrote 1 day ago:
          Because it's a funny rant.
       
          Havoc wrote 1 day ago:
          Despite word salad it is entertaining and the core message is valid
       
        smashah wrote 1 day ago:
        Very true, unfortunately there's no password strong enough to stop
        Malaysian Airlines ground crew from loading a pallet full of
        Mossad-rigged walkie talkies on my flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing
        via conveniently-placed-NATO-AWACS-infested airspace.
        
        2FA isn't going to protect me from cruising altitude walkie talkie
        detonation and having the debris scattered over an impossibly wide
        area.
        
        I guess the best thing to do is not take an airline of a country that
        has recently showed public support for Gaza specifically during a
        humanitarian visit in the months prior to my flight.
        
        Thankfully none of this is true and everything the mainstream media and
        governments tell us are true - imagine if things weren't as they
        seemed?.. Craziness... Back to my password manager!
       
        mike_hearn wrote 1 day ago:
        It's hilarious, but the hilarity gets in the way of recognizing how
        much insight there is also there. It makes serious points. This part
        about the Mossad is especially astonishing given the pager attack:
        
        > If your adversary is the Mossad, YOU’RE GONNA DIE AND THERE’S
        NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO
        ABOUT IT. The Mossad is not intimidated by the fact that you employ
        https://. If the Mossad wants your data, they’re going to use a drone
        to replace your cellphone with a piece of uranium that’s shaped like
        a cellphone
        
        It's like a Mossad agent read this paper and thought hey that's
        actually not a bad idea.
        
        But the core rant is about dubious assumptions in academic cryptography
        papers. I was also reading a lot of academic crypto papers in 2014, and
        the assumptions got old real fast. Mickens mocks these ideas:
        
        • "There are heroes and villains with fantastic (yet oddly
        constrained) powers". Totally standard way to get a paper published.
        Especially annoying were the mathematical proofs that sound rigorous to
        outsiders but quietly assume that the adversary just can't/won't solve
        a certain kind of equation, because it would be inconvenient to prove
        the scheme secure if they did. Or the "exploits" that only worked if
        nobody had upgraded their software stack for five years. Or the systems
        that assume a perfect implementation with no way to recover if anything
        goes wrong.
        
        • "you could enlist a well-known technology company to [run a PKI],
        but this would offend the refined aesthetics of the vaguely Marxist but
        comfortably bourgeoisie hacker community who wants everything to be
        decentralized", lol. This got really tiresome when I worked on Bitcoin.
        Lots of semi-technical people who had never run any large system
        constantly attacking every plausible design of implementable complexity
        because it wasn't decentralized enough for their tastes, sometimes not
        even proposing anything better.
        
        • "These [social networks] are not the best people in the history of
        people, yet somehow, I am supposed to stitch these clowns into a rich
        cryptographic tapestry that supports key revocation and verifiable
        audit trails" - another variant of believing decentralized cryptography
        and PKI is easy.
        
        He also talks about security labels like in SELinux but I never read
        those papers. I think Mickens used humor to try and get people talking
        about some of the bad patterns in academic cryptography, but if you
        want a more serious paper that makes some similar points there's one
        here:
        
   URI  [1]: https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/1336.pdf
       
          commandlinefan wrote 1 day ago:
          > going to use a drone to replace your cellphone with a piece of
          uranium
          
          That's assuming they can figure out who you are in the first place. 
          My pipe dream for the internet (that I thought we were getting way
          back in the 90's) is total anonymity.  You can say whatever you like
          about the mossad, or the NSA or the KGB or whatever you like, and
          they'll never be able to figure out whose cellphone to replace with a
          piece of uranium.
          
          We have the technology to make it happen (thanks to the paranoid
          security researchers!) just not the collective will to allow it.
       
            ikamm wrote 1 day ago:
            If you think the bots and bad actors are bad now...
       
            nathan_compton wrote 1 day ago:
            The biggest social challenge to this is astro-turfing, from my own
            point of view. Even total anonymity with proof of work doesn't
            solve the problem. Like the idea we want is that people can speak
            truth to power. But total anonymity makes it quite difficult to
            figure out if its power speaking lies to create a false perception
            of the truth.
            
            I mean go read 4chan, a place where there is something like total
            anonymity. Those people are constantly imagining that half the
            comments on the site are generated by intelligence agencies and,
            who knows, maybe they are right? I really do wonder if there is any
            way to reap the rewards of total anonymity without the poison of
            bad actors.
            
            I'm somewhat moderate on the issue from a practical point of view.
            I think citizens have a right to some sort of reasonable privacy
            and I don't think laws which try to regulate the technical
            mechanisms by which we can have it make sense, no matter how evil
            the use of the technology is. But I don't think that, in the end,
            it is beyond the remit of authority to snoop with, for example, a
            court order, and the means to do so. I expect authority to abuse
            power, but I don't think that technological solutions can prevent
            that. Only a vigilant citizenry can do it.
       
          jojobas wrote 1 day ago:
          It is kinda funny, but cost and benefit analysis is not foreign even
          to Mossad. Mossad would prefer quite a few people's data stolen, but
          they are not going to carry out a black abroad for most of them.
       
          ta1243 wrote 1 day ago:
          > you could enlist a well-known technology company to [run a PKI],
          
          If you have a single company, then that's easy enough for a group
          like Mossad to infiltrate. Probably easier than a distributed system.
       
            mike_hearn wrote 1 day ago:
            The best known PKI (webtrust) is many companies, not a single
            company. So it's distributed but that makes it easier to hack not
            harder because you have many possible targets instead of just one.
       
          Yizahi wrote 1 day ago:
          > Lots of semi-technical people who had never run any large system
          constantly attacking every plausible design of implementable
          complexity because it wasn't decentralized enough for their tastes,
          sometimes not even proposing anything better.
          
          And for added fun, that same radical decentralization crowd, finally
          settling on the extremely centralized Lightning crutch, which is not
          only centralized but also computationally over complicated and buggy.
       
        torginus wrote 1 day ago:
        If your adversary is a state intelligence agency, you're probably a
        high ranking politician and a boomer who is clueless about computers,
        and has demonstrably terrible opsec, either through government
        incompetence of your own agencies, or not following the terribly
        cumbersome opsec procedures, either because of inconvenience, the
        policies being terrible or sheer incompetence.
        
        The amount of examples we've seen of this is staggering.
       
          sigwinch wrote 1 day ago:
          That sounds like an elected legislator, not like the kind of person
          with close access to compartmentalized info. And its the form of a
          leak of policy or some covert program; details which could also be
          bought; so it’s called “retail” compared with systematic.
       
            torginus wrote 1 day ago:
            I think saying that people like Hillary Clinton, Trump, Biden or
            Bolton didn't have access to highly sensitive information is not a
            reasonable stance (and those are just the ones we know about).
       
              sigwinch wrote 1 day ago:
              It’s good that no one is arguing that. But your argument
              isn’t strong. You’re saying that numbers matter.  Those kinds
              of people go in and out of SCIFs. If they belch a secret at
              lunch, maybe it has lobbying implications, but it wasn’t
              compartmentalized. It can even be disinfo.
              
              The real ROI is to land a Jonathan Pollard. Not even a million
              Hegseths can leak enough info to collect into one Pollard.
       
        lifestyleguru wrote 1 day ago:
        Then how it's possible Mossad didn't know about what had happened on 7
        October 2023?
       
          smashah wrote 1 day ago:
          They didn't know about Hannibal Directive Celebration Day? Who told
          you that?
       
          IAmBroom wrote 1 day ago:
          Lack of omniscience, infinite computing power, and yottabyte storage
          facilities?
       
            lifestyleguru wrote 1 day ago:
            Dunno, Microsoft was quite generous with their cloud plan.
       
          drdrek wrote 1 day ago:
          Actually Gaza and the West Bank are handled by the "Shabak" agency
          which is the equivalent of the FBI while the "Mossad" agency is only
          for foreign operations and is equivalent to the CIA
          
          And asking how did they miss something is like asking how come AWS
          has downtime. But I'm sure you could come to this conclusion on your
          own if you didn't really want the answer to be something else.
       
            torginus wrote 1 day ago:
            And the article is a huge rant about why security people are stupid
            for worrying about the most clearly implausible shit ever.
       
          smashah wrote 1 day ago:
          They didn't know about the pretense they wanted to spend the
          following 2+ years making unlimited fallacious justifications for
          committing a live-streamed holocaust of children? Who told you that?
       
          2rsf wrote 1 day ago:
          a. I am too lazy to search but they probably did, the problem was
          what was done with the information. Same with 8200 the all mighty
          signal intelligence corps
          
          b. The Mossad is the equivalent of the CIA, they are not meant to act
          inside Israel
       
            ta1243 wrote 1 day ago:
            > b. The Mossad is the equivalent of the CIA, they are not meant to
            act inside Israel
            
            For that purpose is Gaza inside or not inside Israel?
       
              rgblambda wrote 1 day ago:
              Shin Bet (Israeli internal security service) have an Arab desk
              that covers the West Bank & Gaza.
       
              lifestyleguru wrote 1 day ago:
              Israel would probably dispute it, but for most of the world Gaza
              in relation to Israel is "abroad" and not "domestic".
       
              2rsf wrote 1 day ago:
              Yes (TBD)
       
          throwaway_dang wrote 1 day ago:
          Maybe they did but it was permitted to happen to provide the pretext
          to expand those Greater Israel borders.
       
          bbarnett wrote 1 day ago:
          The same way the US didn't know about 9/11.  Intelligence failures.
          
          (Portions of the US intelligence apparatus knew, but that knowledge
          didn't transition into action)
       
            energy123 wrote 1 day ago:
            Israel's intelligence services (not Mossad) did collect valid
            signals, such as sim cards in Gaza being swapped out for Israel sim
            cards, but it was ignored as another false positive. What the
            public don't see are all the false positives (like many drills for
            an attack that don't materialize) that drown out valid signals when
            the attack is actually going to happen. There's also hesitancy to
            act on signals because drills are used to expose intelligence.
            
            It's one of the many asymmetries that changes when you are the
            defender versus the attacker. As the defender, you have to be right
            100% of the time. As the attacker, you have the luxury of being
            right only 30% of the time. The law of large numbers is on the side
            of the attacker. This applies to missile offense/defense and to
            usage of intelligence.
            
            This information asymmetry is also one of the key drivers of the
            security dilemma, which in turn causes arms races and conflict. The
            defender knows they can't be perfect all the time, so they have an
            incentive to preemptively attack if the probability of future
            problems based on their assessment of current information is high
            enough.
            
            In the case of Gaza there was also an assessment that Hamas were
            deterred, which were the tinted glasses through which signals were
            assessed. Israel also assumed a certain shape of an attack, and the
            minimal mobilisation of Hamas did not fit that expected template.
            So the intelligence failure was also a failure in security doctrine
            and institutional culture. The following principles need to be
            reinforced: (i) don't assume the best, (ii) don't expect
            rationality and assume a rival is deterred even if they should be,
            (iii) intention causes action, believe a rival when they say they
            want to do X instead of projecting your own worldview onto them,
            (iv) don't become fixated on a particular scenario, keep the
            distribution (scenario analyses) broad
       
              IAmBroom wrote 1 day ago:
              >  As the attacker, you have the luxury of being right only 30%
              of the time.
              
              Interesting number you suggested. That's a pretty normal success
              rate for a carnivore attacking prey.
       
              dominicrose wrote 1 day ago:
              Avoiding a car accident has a low cost, you just have to take it
              slowly and be 1 min late to your meeting or whatever, but
              deciding wether you should attack first based on a small
              suspicion, that a hell of a problem, because if you're wrong,
              you're seen as the bad guy. And maybe even if you're right and
              can't prove it.
       
                energy123 wrote 1 day ago:
                > because if you're wrong, you're seen as the bad guy. And
                maybe even if you're right and can't prove it.
                
                An example of this is France cutting off all support after
                Israel's initiation of the Six Day War, which followed signals
                such as Egypt massing troops on the border. The problem for
                Israel was the lack of strategic depth combined with the
                geographical low ground, which creates these hair trigger
                scenarios with no room for error, reducing the threshold to act
                preemptively. The more abstract problem was the absence of a
                hegemon in the late 20th century that had security control over
                West Asia, which is a necessary and sufficient condition for
                resolving the security dilemma.
       
          ozirus wrote 1 day ago:
          Domestic intel = Shin Bet, not Mossad
       
          INTPenis wrote 1 day ago:
          This is exactly the type of comment that will get you mossad'd.
       
            lifestyleguru wrote 1 day ago:
            ok I'll keep you updated, but I don't own any real estate they
            could "de-Hamasify"
       
        impossiblefork wrote 1 day ago:
        The Mossad part is a very silly element of the text. Many organizations
        have to defend against US intelligence, Israeli intelligence etc., and
        I'm sure, that they, with the exception of some very terrible countries
        with a lot of incompetence or full of disloyal people likely to become
        infiltrators, are quite successful.
        
        Actual security is possible even against the most powerful and
        determined adversaries, and it's possible even for you.
       
          IAmBroom wrote 1 day ago:
          Well, data security. Right up until the wetware is included.
       
            impossiblefork wrote 22 hours 46 min ago:
            I think, a lot of people imagine these people as very capable, and
            they think of things like those pagers etc., but when I think of
            them I think of the Lillehammer affair and a bunch of other
            similarly silly business, so I'm much less impressed with them,
            feeling that they're basically silly people.
            
            There's so many cock-ups etc. that you can read about Wikipedia
            that I don't understand why people hold these people highly and
            imagine them to be so able. They simply aren't.
       
        megous wrote 1 day ago:
        Not sure what audience he is talking to. Experts deal with a lot more
        issues that sit between choosing a good password + not falling for
        phishing and "giving up because mossad". The terminology that he
        sprinkles about suggests the audience is experts.
       
          rini17 wrote 1 day ago:
          The article actually addresses this -- that all these extra issues
          are not manageable for mere mortals anyway and/or perfectly spherical
          cows are involved.
       
            megous wrote 1 day ago:
            It does not. It just invents a bunch of straw men, and then mocks
            them.
       
              IAmBroom wrote 1 day ago:
              Literally what you are doing with the article right now.
       
                megous wrote 8 hours 17 min ago:
                Pretty sure I'm not literally inventing actual straw men here.
                :-)
       
              rini17 wrote 1 day ago:
              Such as?
       
        eirini1 wrote 1 day ago:
        Never agreed with this logic. For a lot of people (anyone that does
        political activism of some sort for example) the threat model can be a
        lot more nuanced. It might not be Mossad or the CIA gunning for you,
        specifically, but it might police searching you and your friend's
        laptops or phones. It might be burglars targetting the office of the
        small organization you have and the small servers you have running
        there.
       
          some_random wrote 1 day ago:
          Yeah it's extremely immature, even within police agencies there's a
          huge variation on their ability to perform digital forensics.
          Furthermore, just because the feds don't like you for whatever reason
          doesn't mean they're going to deploy their top-of-the-line exploits
          against you, or detain and torture you, or whatever magic voodoo
          bullshit the author thinks the Mossad can do.
       
          shermantanktop wrote 1 day ago:
          The third mode is enabled by scale of data and compute. If enough
          data from enough sources is processed by enough compute, Mossad does
          not need to have a prior interest in you in order for you to fit a
          profile that they are interested in.
          
          Anyone else see all the drones flying over a peaceful No Kings
          assembly?
       
          YesThatTom2 wrote 1 day ago:
          I'm pretty sure his point was that security labels are a dead end.
          
          (Have you ever attended an academic security conference like Usenix
          Security?)
       
          bell-cot wrote 1 day ago:
          Yep.  While there might be some use cases for his ultra-simplistic
          "Mossad/not-Mossad duality" - say, convincing Bob Jones that
          "b0bj0nes" is not a great password - it's 99% fairy tale.
          
          And even if the CIA/Mossad/NSA/whoever is "interested" in you - this
          is the era of mass surveillance.  The chances that you're worth a
          Stuxnet level of effort is 0.000000001%.  Vs. 99.999% chance that
          they'll happily hoover up your data, if you make it pretty easy for
          their automated systems to do that.
       
            zahlman wrote 1 day ago:
            > Yep. While there might be some use cases for his ultra-simplistic
            "Mossad/not-Mossad duality" - say, convincing Bob Jones that
            "b0bj0nes" is not a great password - it's 99% fairy tale.
            
            Honestly, the oversimplification here reads to me more like
            something Bob Jones could use to justify not caring about
            "b0bj0nes" not being a great password.
       
              bell-cot wrote 1 day ago:
              I was thinking, "Bob, stop making excuses about how it's
              hopeless, and you'd need a
              'U0hBNTEyICgvdmFyL2xvZy9tZXNzYWdlcykgPSBjNGU2NGM1MmI5MDhiYWU3MDU5
              NzdlMzUzZDlk'-level password to be safe.  That 'b0bj0nes' is so
              easy that a bored kid might get it in a few dozen guesses, and
              you need to change it to something better."
       
                wpollock wrote 1 day ago:
                That password should include symbols too!  Without symbols,
                each character is one of 62 values (sticking to ASCII letters
                and digits).  Including symbols makes it much harder to guess
                passwords of a given length.  Even better would be Unicode
                letters,  digits, and symbols, even if you stick to the Basic
                Multilingual Plane.
                
                Best would be non-text, binary strings.  Since I already use a
                password manager,  I don't really need to type passwords by
                hand. But I do understand most people prefer text passwords
                that could be entered by hand if necessary.
       
                  bell-cot wrote 1 day ago:
                  Except that's exactly what the Mossad will be expecting us to
                  use, for our uber-secure password!  By eschewing symbols and
                  binary, we are actually meta-out-smarting their ultimate
                  giga-quantum nuclear crypto cracker.
                  
                  Or:  This is Bob "Dim Bulb" Jones we're talking to.  KISS,
                  and maybe we can convince him to upgrade his password to
                  "iwantacoldbeernow".
       
                    jasomill wrote 1 day ago:
                    “iwantacoldbeernow”
                    
                    Sorry, your password does not meet complexity requirements
                    because it does not contain at least one of each of the
                    following: uppercase letters, lowercase letters, numeric
                    digits, nonalphanumeric symbols.
                    
                    “I want 1 cold beer now.”
                    
                    Sorry, your password may not contain spaces.
                    
                    “Iwant1coldbeernow.”
                    
                    Sorry, your password is too long.
                    
                    “Iwant1beernow.”
                    
                    Sorry, your password is too long.
                    
                    “1Beer?”
                    
                    Sorry, your password is too short.
                    
                    “Password1!”
                    
                    Thank you. Your password has been changed.
       
            tonnydourado wrote 1 day ago:
            Also worth noting that Mossad/CIA/etc. are not monoliths. Maybe you
            got a top agent assigned to you, but maybe your file is on the desk
            of the Mossad's version of Hitchcock and Scully from Brooklyn 99.
       
          rini17 wrote 1 day ago:
          You did not write what you actually disagree with....
       
            coldtea wrote 1 day ago:
            the maximalist false dillema of "all or nothing": either it's a
            super-poweful super-human agency and you can't do anything, else
            any half-measure is fine
       
            turboturbo wrote 1 day ago:
            The false dichotomy
       
              rini17 wrote 1 day ago:
              The dichotomy between what average people(including political
              activists) can actually handle and stuff proposed by security
              researchers is real.
       
                anonym29 wrote 1 day ago:
                The idea that average people can't handle incremental
                improvements like a password manager, MFA, full disk
                encryption, etc is unhealthy infantilization of people who are
                entirely capable of understanding the concepts, the benefits,
                the risks they address, and appreciating the benefits of them.
                
                Most people just don't care enough until after they're hacked,
                at which point they care just enough to wish they'd done
                something more previously, which is just shy of enough to start
                doing something differently going forward.
                
                It's not that normies are too stupid figure this out, it's that
                they make risk accept decisions on risks they don't thoroughly
                understand or care enough about to want to understand. My
                personal observation is that the concept of even thinking about
                potential future technology risks at all (let alone considering
                changing behavior to mitigate those risks) seems to represent
                an almost an almost pathological level of proactive preparation
                to normies, the same way that preppers building bunkers with
                years of food and water storage look to the rest of us.
       
                  rini17 wrote 1 day ago:
                  I do understand the concepts and exactly because of that I
                  doubt I myself would be able of airtight opsec against any
                  determined adversary, not even state-level one. I think it's
                  humility, you think I infantilize myself lol.
                  
                  I do use password manager and disk encryption, just for case
                  of theft. Still feels like one stupid sleepy misclick away
                  from losing stuff and no amount of MFAs or whatever is going
                  to save me, they actually feel like added complexity which
                  leads to mistakes.
       
        edu wrote 1 day ago:
        That's a fun take, similar to the classic XKCD 538: Security.
        
   URI  [1]: https://xkcd.com/538/
       
          dominicrose wrote 1 day ago:
          this is why you need a fake password that provides access to fake
          content that looks like the real content
       
          hshdhdhehd wrote 1 day ago:
          The 4096 bits just stops it being so easy to surveil you that it is
          hyper-automated. So there is some use. The $5 wrench needs a million
          dollar operation to get that guy to your house.
       
            ta1243 wrote 1 day ago:
            Depends how strong the protections of your civil society is, but it
            doesn't cost $1m to send a goon with a crowbar or shotgun. Sure
            that doesn't scale, but if you are a target you're screwed
       
              hshdhdhehd wrote 1 day ago:
              The $1m is the stuff they did to the point where they knew where
              to send the goon.
              
              If you are a target you are screwed. But clever crypto isn't
              useless.
       
                sigwinch wrote 1 day ago:
                Probably used to average over $1m. Nowadays, those operations
                (polonium, novachuk, expending expensive KGB resources) send a
                signal. Otherwise, swatting your home while they drain your
                wallets; or threatening to swat; quite inexpensive.
       
            bbarnett wrote 1 day ago:
            Oh come on, that's way over budget!  Every time I managed such an
            operation, we'd just rent a van and... uh, I mean, um, I heard it
            costs less.
       
              hshdhdhehd wrote 1 day ago:
              Its a million dollars to the defense contractor who lobbies for
              more wrench attacks.
       
        broodbucket wrote 1 day ago:
        Remember, you don't have to be unhackable, just sufficiently
        unimportant to not be worth burning any novel capability on
       
          lisbbb wrote 1 day ago:
          I like the "gray man" concept, but can't predict when you end up on
          the radar or why.  As a young graduate student, I once wrote an
          article that rebuffed the government's "Total Information Awareness"
          trial balloon and suddenly found myself embroiled in much unexpected
          controversy, including some big name journalists e-mailing me and
          asking questions.  You just never know when you stumble into
          something that you're not supposed to know about and what might
          happen.
       
          andai wrote 1 day ago:
          So the advice would be for an activist to choose extremely boring
          forms of activism? ;)
       
            broodbucket wrote 23 hours 1 min ago:
            If you're at that level where some powerful entity really takes an
            interest in you, you just have to operate as if you're always
            compromised, I think.
       
          itsnowandnever wrote 1 day ago:
          I think people don't understand what this means either. the
          nation-state "agencies" that can and will get into your
          network/devices can do so because they would employ tactics like
          kidnapping and blackmailing a local telco field technician. or if
          it's your own government, they can show up with some police and tell
          them to do whatever and most will comply without even receiving a
          proper court order.
          
          so unless you're worth all that trouble, you're really just trying to
          avoid being "low hanging fruit" compromised by some batch script
          probing known (and usually very old) vulnerabilities
       
            red-iron-pine wrote 1 day ago:
            plenty of big telcos push back to gub'mnt orders.  they usually get
            a warrant.
            
            or they just pay the $2100 per API call to download it from the
            telco or social media company.
            
            it's not improper if you agreed to give a company the ability to
            sell your data to anyone -- the government is anyone, and they have
            the money.
       
          shiandow wrote 1 day ago:
          Given that choice I'd rather choose to be unhackable.
       
          aa-jv wrote 1 day ago:
          I think the more important maxim to follow is this: if you didn't
          manufacture your own sillicon, you are infinitely more hackable than
          if you did.
          
          Alas, no matter how hard we try to trust our compilers, we must also
          adopt methods to trust our foundries.
          
          Oh, we don't have our own foundries?
          
          Yeah, thats the real problem.  Who owns the foundries?
       
            smithkl42 wrote 1 day ago:
            Nah, if I manufactured my own silicon, I'd be infinitely more
            hackable than I am right now - just like if I wrote my own crypto
            code. 99.9999% of people are going to be more secure if they just
            rely on publicly accessible cryptography (and silicon). Otherwise
            you're just going to be making stupid mistakes that real
            cryptographers and security folks found and wrote defenses against
            three decades ago.
       
              MomsAVoxell wrote 1 day ago:
              If you could make your own silicon, you could create a guild or a
              federation to audit it, and then your trust circle would be
              smaller and therefore safer.
              
              >Otherwise you're just going to be making stupid mistakes that
              real cryptographers and security folks found and wrote defenses
              against three decades ago.
              
              Yeah, thats the point, learn those same techniques, get it in the
              guild, and watch each others backs.
              
              Rather than just 'trusting' some faceless war profiteers from the
              midst of an out of control military-industrial complex.
       
            pydry wrote 1 day ago:
            When has anybody ever been hacked via a foundry?
            
            While having your own foundry is undoubtedly a good thing from the
            perspective of supply chain resiliency, if hacking is what you're
            worried about there are probably easier ways to mitigate (e.g. a
            bit more rigor in QC).
       
              purplehat_ wrote 1 day ago:
              Not exactly what you're asking, but multiple CVEs have been found
              in Intel's Management Engine (ME) which have been used in
              spyware.
              
              It might not be an intentional backdoor, but it very much seems
              designed with out-of-band access in mind, with the AMT remote
              management features and the fact that the network controller has
              DMA (this enables packet interception).
       
              kragen wrote 1 day ago:
              Roughly everybody you've ever met, 100% of the time.
              
              There's a reason the NSA can get Intel CPUs without IME and you
              can't.    Given the incentives and competence of the people
              involved, it's probably an intentional vulnerability that you
              can't escape because you don't fab your own chips.  There's
              strong circumstantial evidence that Huawei got banned from
              selling their products in the US for doing the same thing.  And
              the Crypto AG backdoor (in hardware but probably not in silicon)
              was probably central to a lot of 20th-century international
              relations, though that wasn't publicly known until much later.
              
              And this is before we get into penny-ante malicious hardware like
              laser printer toner cartridges, carrier-locked cellphones, and
              HDMI copy protection.
              
              No amount of QC is going to remove malicious hardware; at best,
              it can tell you it's there.
       
              IAmBroom wrote 1 day ago:
              "When" is what we will likely never know, given the subterranean
              depth of trust and visibility there. Probably never...
       
              aa-jv wrote 1 day ago:
              Do you know what "your" CPU is doing?  Do you really?
       
                lisbbb wrote 1 day ago:
                I always figured the spy crap was programmed right in to the
                chips themselves and the BIOS.
       
          INTPenis wrote 1 day ago:
          That's right, just keep your head down, smile and nod, do your job
          and nothing will ever go wrong. /s
       
            impossiblefork wrote 1 day ago:
            I don't think that's the interpretation, but make your computer
            systems disconnected from what you do.
            
            If relevant adversaries don't know which computer to burn the
            exploit on, then they won't burn it on the right one.
       
            GreenWatermelon wrote 1 day ago:
            You /s but this is actually valid advice for someone who just wants
            to get by in life and is content.
       
              ragazzina wrote 1 day ago:
              >someone who just wants to get by in life and is content
              
              "It’s the reductionist approach to life: if you keep it small,
              you’ll keep it under control. If you don’t make any noise,
              the bogeyman won’t find you. But it’s all an illusion,
              because they die too, those people who roll up their spirits into
              tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what? Life is
              always on the edge of death; narrow streets lead to the same
              place as wide avenues, and a little candle burns itself out just
              like a flaming torch does."
       
                lisbbb wrote 1 day ago:
                That's stupid.    It's not all an illusion.  The scale definitely
                matters.  If you are buying stocks you can make a profit as a
                little guy that if the big guys tried to do it they would
                quickly become the "market maker" and the strategy would not
                scale up.  It's the same with criminal activity or
                insurgency--small mosquitoes are ignored while the major
                threats get swatted hard.
       
              INTPenis wrote 1 day ago:
              True enough. I'm content as long as I don't hear the news
              anywhere. Recently had my dad over and he can't go 5 minutes
              without the news on in the background. Really hard to be content
              then.
       
              throwaway_dang wrote 1 day ago:
              Do the bombs dropping in war zones avoid apolitical people? If
              not, when is the appropriate time to get sufficiently political
              to avoid having a bomb dropped on one's head?
       
                GreenWatermelon wrote 1 day ago:
                "Keeping your head down" means not doing anything that would
                cause a government (especially your own) to want to disappear
                you.
                
                If you vocally oppose your tyrannical government, you won't
                avoid a bomb on your head. In the best case you'll get a bullet
                through your head. Worst case, you spend a lifetime in a
                prison.
       
                adrianN wrote 1 day ago:
                Very few individuals can influence whether or not bombs drop.
                The best way to avoid having bombs dropped on your head is
                moving to a place where fewer bombs are dropped.
       
                  jimnotgym wrote 1 day ago:
                  But many people together,  although none of them individually
                  influencial enough,  certainly can influence where bombs get
                  dropped.
                  
                  When you start successfully reaching many people you can be
                  sure that security agencies will start watching you.
       
                    adrianN wrote 1 day ago:
                    In areas where bombs are dropped there is generally a large
                    majority in favor of stopping that, but they have little
                    influence.
       
              energy123 wrote 1 day ago:
              Downvoted, but so much evil is caused by people due to their
              distorted yet sincerely believed moral virtues. Not due to an
              absence of morality but because of it. Whatever you have in your
              mind as the image of quintessential evil is probably caused by
              those people's sincerely held moral system, a moral system they
              believed in as strongly as you do yours. So people who just live
              their lives and do not grasp on external change are fine by me.
       
                6510 wrote 9 hours 9 min ago:
                Unless you believe in the extinction of bad people the burden
                of restoring normality is for everyone else. Those who are not
                part of the solution are not part of the problem, they are the
                problem. You cant have the problem without them and you cant
                have them without having the problems.
       
                GreenWatermelon wrote 1 day ago:
                are you saying that you've downvoted me, or just pointing out
                that I've been downvoted? If the former, why?
       
            brigandish wrote 1 day ago:
            A more charitable view would be to act like a zebra in a herd of
            zebra rather than a zebra in a herd of horses.
       
              IAmBroom wrote 1 day ago:
              Charitable, but also privileged. Many people only have the option
              of looking like a cow in a cattle yard.
       
        optimalsolver wrote 1 day ago:
        I think fighting Israel is kind of a glimpse into what trying to fight
        a malevolent AGI will be like.
        
        Expect to lose in highly surprising ways.
       
          speedgoose wrote 1 day ago:
          I don't know, driving a big truck into AWS' us-east-1 power supply
          section sounds more than enough to take down internet for a while.
       
            red-iron-pine wrote 1 day ago:
            ITT: we've never spent time around ashburn va data centers.
            
            most have big heavy barriers and multiple bollards and fences. 
            some of the reston va data centers have big glorious planters out
            front and weird angles to walk up to the mantrap -- to prevent
            trucks from driving through.  the generators usually have some sort
            of fence or bollards, and most are on multiple power sources from
            the local and airport grids.
            
            source: used to manage nova data centers and did plenty of attack
            surface mapping.  the truck-through-front-door approach is
            consistently considered.
       
            WJW wrote 1 day ago:
            Of course, but that's the point. Actual AGI wouldn't need to limit
            itself pointlessly in ways that would make it obvious to every
            internet rando how to hit it. Just as you cannot kill an
            intelligence agency with a single strike, it could distribute
            itself over many secret locations.
       
            ta1243 wrote 1 day ago:
            I would hope that data centre has multiple power supplies from
            multiple locations - as well as UPS and on site generators,
            certainly mine do.
            
            However given AWS is so complex (which is required because they
            want to be a gatekeeping platform) leading the uptime to struggle
            to match a decent home setup, I'm not sure. I'm sure there's no 6
            figure bonus for checking the generators are working, but a rounded
            corner on a button on an admin page?
       
        tuzemec wrote 1 day ago:
        Somewhat related video:
        
   URI  [1]: https://vimeo.com/95066828
       
        samlinnfer wrote 1 day ago:
        This will always be my favourite Mikens essay (The Slow Winter):
        
   URI  [1]: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1309_14-17_mickens.pdf
       
          purplehat_ wrote 1 day ago:
          If people want to read all six, here they are! [1] My favorite is The
          Night Watch.
          
   URI    [1]: https://mickens.seas.harvard.edu/wisdom-james-mickens
       
          isoprophlex wrote 1 day ago:
          > [...] it’s pretty clear that compilers are a thing of the past,
          and the next generation of processors will run English-level
          pseudocode directly.
          
          hilarious AND scary levels of prescient writing...
       
          chao- wrote 1 day ago:
          Mine as well.
          
          I have a fond memory of being at a party where someone had the idea
          to do dramatic readings of various Mickens Usenix papers. Even just
          doing partial readings, it was slow going, lots of pauses to recover
          from overwhelming laughter. When the reading of The Slow Winter got
          to "THE MAGMA PEOPLE ARE WAITING FOR OUR MISTAKES", we had to stop
          because someone had laughed so hard they threw up. Not in an awful
          way, but enough to give us a pause in the action, and to decide we
          couldn't go on.
          
          Good times.
       
            purplehat_ wrote 1 day ago:
            Bit of an aside, but I'm wondering in what city this was in.
            
            I'm going to be job hunting soon and I was planning to prioritize
            the Bay Area because that's the only place I've encountered a
            decent density of people like this, but maybe I'm setting my sights
            too short.
       
              chao- wrote 1 day ago:
              Houston, Texas.
              
              There are nerds everywhere.
       
            eeeficus wrote 1 day ago:
            Sounds like you found nerd heaven. I couldn't imagine a situation
            like yours in my world! :)
       
       
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